I Have A ? For You Religious People.

CrackerJax said:

Man is a superstitious creature..... period. Religion is a manifestation of that superstition. So are UFO visitation, and ghosts and hauntings. All can be explained by science, but some ppl prefer the myth.

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Cracker, How does science explain UFO visitations.
I've come to think that UFO visitation may have led to religion.
Like maybe Ezikeil's wheel was a UFO.

CrackerJax said:

Man is a superstitious creature..... period. Religion is a manifestation of that superstition. So are UFO visitation, and ghosts and hauntings. All can be explained by science, but some ppl prefer the myth.

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Let me get this strait? You believe in evolution, but you don't believe the universe isn't teaming with intelligent life?

Green Cross said:

Why would the spiritual mind evolve? What is the scientific purpose for people to believe in a higher power?

Animals don't consider these things.

And why is belief in a higher power a part of any 12 step program? The 12 step program was a product of the psychological (scientific) community, but they obviously see the power in prayer and belief.

Did you know that prayer has been scientifically proven to help heal sick people? Please explain this lol

And if there is a separation of church and state, why is it that there is a daily prayer which opens the house of representatives each day, and all swearing and oath taking, takes place with your hand on a Bible? Have you never been to court?

When I was a teen most of us questioned authority, but "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

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Prayer is positive thinking.
Our thoughts affect our actions.
Our actions effect the actions and thoughts of other people.

Sure Shot said:

Prayer is positive thinking.
Our thoughts affect our actions.
Our actions effect the actions and thoughts of other people.

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Positive thinking doesn't necessitate belief in a higher power, so why would a 12 step program require belief in a "higher power", rather than just some positive thinking technique? They must know something you don't.

You can believe someone you love will not die, but it's specifically prayer, not positive thinking that is involved in most miraculous healing.

Believing you will not die, can be attributed - in many cases - to denial, which is part of the grieving process. This contradicts your idea that positive thinking - in itself - is even genuine.

It's fine with me if you don't want to believe it, but let's not play games with words, and known psychological/scientific techniques.

I didn't mention a higher power or a 12 step program.
Prayer is positive thinking.
Do you pray negative things upon yourself?

"You can believe someone you love will not die, but it's specifically prayer, not positive thinking that is involved in most miraculous healing."

This is pure speculation.

Your suggesting that specific words manifest healing. Like LORD, GOD, or AMEN.
WTF?

No prayer has ever stood objective scrutiny. It's always anecdotal evidence. Once placed into a true "test" mode, it fails to show any benefit. The only time a benefit has been shown is when the subject of the prayer is aware of the prayers, and then the Placebo effect kicks in, which has been proven.

Prayer is ineffective other than as a Placebo effect. No miracles there, just skewed perspectives.

Green Cross said:

Positive thinking doesn't necessitate belief in a higher power, so why would a 12 step program require belief in a "higher power", rather than just some positive thinking technique? They must know something you don't.

You can believe someone you love will not die, but it's specifically prayer, not positive thinking that is involved in most miraculous healing.

Believing you will not die, can be attributed - in many cases - to denial, which is part of the grieving process. This contradicts your idea that positive thinking - in itself - is even genuine.

It's fine with me if you don't want to believe it, but let's not play games with words, and known psychological/scientific techniques.

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Well, here ya go GC. Lets hear how you explain this one eh...

My my, faith healing is so damn effective!

Last month in Portland, Ore., Carl and Raylene Worthington's toddler Ava got sick with a blood infection and pneumonia. Both conditions were treatable with antibiotics, but unfortunately for little Ava, her parents belong to the Followers of Christ Church, some members of which believe that prayer can cure the sick. Instead of taking their gravely ill child to a doctor or hospital, they chose to pray for Ava's recovery as she struggled to breathe. The fifteen-month-old died at home on March 2; her parents have been charged with manslaughter.

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http://www.livescience.com/health/080410-bad-prayer-kills.html

further reading about "medical miracles"...

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/060729_medical_miracles.html


No yeah, faith healing is awesome! Praying you'll get better actually works!

It's scientifically proven, right GC?

Unfortunate innocent victims of the lord.
It was her "time" to go.
Nothing can stop God's will.
LMFAO!!

The reason so many (not all) 12 step programs use prayer and belief in a higher power is because it works for a lot of people to THINK someone or something else is in charge and or helping them. Just like with children belief in santa can make them think more positively, maybe make them act a little nicer if santa's going to be judging them, and in the old days it used to make a long tough cold bleak boring winter pass easier because it gives kids something to look forward too even in the worst time of year.

God and Jesus are the Santa nobody made you let go of when you grew up, same principles exactly.

Exactly Oregon... G*D is one big arse Placebo.

what... huh? said:

Not to mention, it is silly to us. Your life being governed by something you see as a fairytale which feels compelled to force itself on you begets some ill will.

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If that's your understanding of who God is, then I will join you in rejecting him.


I don't recognize who you are talking about, though.


Is that how your argument goes? Create a caricature of the one you are fighting against, making him to be a fairytale, then proving how much smarter you are to see through the lie?


Who is us? Do you speak for the scientific community?

CrackerJax said:

Nobody is more materialistic than the church.....

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Donald Trump is. So is the US Federal Government.

They are childs play compared to the church. Nobody has been around longer either. the Church has been at it for 1500 years. No one else is even close. Govt's are mere pawns to the church..... mere pawns.

And churches are "off the books".

CrackerJax said:

They are childs play compared to the church. Nobody has been around longer either. the Church has been at it for 1500 years. No one else is even close. Govt's are mere pawns to the church..... mere pawns.

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It's been said several times that governments use religion to manipulate the ppl. They have always worked together for their own ends. So has the "scientific community", what ever faith they put their hopes in. The US Government is a good example of how wrong your earlier statement was. There have been just as many forms of government throughout history using religion as there have been religions using government. There will always be a conflict.

Sure Shot said:

And churches are "off the books".

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Well! That just says it all! What have I been thinking?

Mauihund said:

It's been said several times that governments use religion to manipulate the ppl. They have always worked together for their own ends. So has the "scientific community", what ever faith they put their hopes in. The US Government is a good example of how wrong your earlier statement was. There have been just as many forms of government throughout history using religion as there have been religions using government. There will always be a conflict.

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you said it urself.... there have been many govts.... but only one church. The church will ride with any govt. which displays the power the church can use and needs. WW2 and the cozy relations between Hitler and the church prove that much.

So govt.s come and go in a disjointed fashion, but the church has always been there to switch to whichever side does it the most good.

CrackerJax said:

you said it urself.... there have been many govts.... but only one church.

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What are talking about? I reread my last post. Can't figure out when you read me saying "many govts.... but only one church." Did you intend that comment for me?

Just to be sure, what I said was, "There have been just as many forms of government throughout history using religion as there have been religions using government.

CrackerJax said:

The church will ride with any govt. which displays the power the church can use and needs. WW2 and the cozy relations between Hitler and the church prove that much.

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Now I understand you are an ignorant man, doing nothing more than ragging against God. Hitler hated the Church because he feared it undermined his control.

CrackerJax said:

So govt.s come and go in a disjointed fashion, but the church has always been there to switch to whichever side does it the most good.

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Sounds like nothing more than sour grapes to me.

You missed the point. There has only been one church through most of history.... the Roman Catholic Church. All sects of Christianity spring from that source. There has been only one church which coupled up to many forms of govt.

So you can say that govt.'s are more materialistic, but you would be wrong.

As far as Hitler goes, you need to do a bit of research. The Vatican made deals over and over again with Hitler. The church has worked very hard to clean up the reputation of Pope Pius XII. That pope made deals with the devil. Of course it was all in the name of helping ppl.... right?

If Hitler had won WW2, the Pope would have immediately sent out feelers as to what kind of relationship it could have with the New Third Reich. It really would have been up to Hitler as to how cozy the relationship would have been. The Church would have gone along.... so they could "help" the ppl.

Uh huh.... read up on Pope Pius XII

CrackerJax said:

You missed the point. There has only been one church through most of history.... the Roman Catholic Church. All sects of Christianity spring from that source. There has been only one church which coupled up to many forms of govt.

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No, I'm following you pretty well. You are saying that the Catholic church is the one church throughout Christian history, and that they started every other christian like religion. Right?

I'm saying that is not the scientific fact, given recorded history. The Catholic Church started in 312 AD when Emperor Constantine proclaimed he had had a vision to unite the Roman Empire under a universal (i.e. "catholic") church, this began the Roman Catholic Church.

How did you conclude that the Jews were Catholic? What about the Muslims? They didn't stem from the Catholic Church, and they were both around before the Christians. You have no idea what you are saying.

CrackerJax said:

If Hitler had won WW2, the Pope would have immediately sent out feelers as to what kind of relationship it could have with the New Third Reich. It really would have been up to Hitler as to how cozy the relationship would have been. The Church would have gone along.... so they could "help" the ppl.

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First of all, your entire premise for saying this depends on your earlier statement that the Catholic Church is THE Christian church and always has been. You would be wrong.

Also, since we are playing "what if" with Hitler, if he did come into power, EVERYONE would have been sending out feelers to see how cozy that relationship would be. I'm not condoning it, that's just human nature, and not a bad idea if you want to survive under Hitlers regime. I'm sure the pure scientist would have shunned Hitler.......oh! Shit! They loved Hitler! My bad.