High Pressure Aeroponics

ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
corvek said:
Awesome! Thanks for the link, explains it! Looking forward to reading more on the whole HPA subject.
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Greetings corvek!

Nice to meet you, and let us know how the HPA system progresses!

I obtained some of the trampoline fabric, and I can tell you that it is really awesome, but it's hard to work with. It melts reasonably, but needs to be pressed together to stick to itself, otherwise it's like burning hair. The fabric I have is thick, the same as a trampoline. It holds it's shape, but can be ironed into place. Sewing pieces together will work well, but it needs a hem. Self-stick Velcro does not adhere; you need to sew it.
If light is a concern, double walled pieces will suffice. Aside from that, It inhibits water pretty well. With a forceful spray at 90 degrees from the surface, only about 5% permeates. If you double wall with a gap, it is negligible.
I hope this helps and keep us posted,

- ZXC
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The idea behind using it is to create a vertical duct so air flows up the gap between the permatron (chamber wall) and the impermeable outer wall. The mist in any hpa chamber will collect on the walls. Its not much use to any roots on there so it eventually builds up and runs down. The ducted chamber solves the build up issue and turns it into a useful benefit, chamber cooling. My outdoor chambers use this design and they stay pretty cool even in full sun, i had to incorporate shutters to close off the airgaps at night to prevent the chambers getting too cold.
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
I didn't know that you had solid walls behind your permatron Atomizer, I was under the impression that the fabric was the wall. In my system the trampoline fabric comprises the wall. Although there is some water leakage, the grow tent walls contain it, and it accumulates in the tent catch tray. The heat of vaporization does carry the joules away, and I can see how restricting evaporation will retain energy on the cooler nights. One query: are your shutters manual or automatic? In my mind's eye I can see your system working on the cooling planter principle, where the soaked clay pots evaporatively cool the contents.

On a side note, It's Spring! Everything is sweet, the women are dressed in less, and the air is just right for drinking! :)
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
The chamber walls and floor are permatron, check out the link i gave to Corvek ;) The shutters are manually operated but it wouldnt take a lot to automate them.They work like normal duct dampers, 90 degree rotation to open or close.
Its more like summer here this past week, high 70`s is unseasonally hot for april.
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
That looks sweet Atomizer! Thanks for the link too. How deep is the cloner, I can't quite tell from the pictures? It looks like it's about a foot deep, if the top was placed on. Great idea.
Do you find that every new device constructed is slightly modified from previous creations? I don't think that I have one duplicate system because every time I construct a new one, another modification pops into my head. It's pretty cool, although I have a myriad of novel contraptions strewn about :) Let us know how it performs.
 
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Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Its made from a stack of 3 hdpe trays, 24 x 16 x 4 deep, i cut the bottom out of the middle one so its just a collar that adds height. I put threaded holes in the bottom tray to mount the nozzles which also keeps the tray watertight. The drain consists of a 15mm JG tank connector with the back of it cut down to 2mm thick so thats as deep as any standing water can get. The pool noodle feet (hot glued on) tilt the cloner slightly towards the drain. I have it hooked up to an aquatec 6800 for initial testing (couldnt wait) but it`will have its own accumulator. Here`s a vid with the timer set for 2 seconds.

These are the seed starting collars i came up with, time will tell if they work as planned ;)

seed starter.JPG
Nothing special, just short sections of tube with 1" thick dense foam discs that have a 12mm hole in the middle. Coco fibre mat (hanging basket liners) cut into strips provides intial support and moisture. The mat is trapped by the foam disc and tube so it cant go anywhere. You just drop the seeds into the hole and they land on the coco, Rubber bands prevent the tubes falling into the cloner and double as an o-ring seal. I added the mesh (plasterboard / sheetrock fibreglass joint mesh, 4" wide roll) to see if the roots will make use of it. which could be useful when transplanting into a vertical hpa ;) Its currently loaded with 2 tomato seeds per site, (total 70 seeds) i`m expecting to see some come up before the weekend ;)
 
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ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Atomizer said:
Its made from a stack of 3 hdpe trays, 24 x 16 x 4 deep, i cut the bottom out of the middle one so its just a collar that adds height. I put threaded holes in the bottom tray to mount the nozzles which also keeps the tray watertight. i`m expecting to see some come up before the weekend ;)
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That really looks nice, I love the precision work. When are you opening your store? I'd purchase them :), ...but we both know that the returns would not make up for the investment. I still enjoy the fantasy. How did they perform, did they all spring up?

On my end, our 97 year old grandfather passed. I have been occupied with the arrangements, ergo, not much input from me. Here is a hasty update, with hopes of reprieve from morbid life events and more regular updates;

The system is working well. I have four plants on the 12/12 for seven days now. I have switched to a 2-2-2 NPK fert, soon to a 1-2-3 as the pH is dropping as K usage is increasing. The RZC temps are still below 65F, and the cooling fans have not actuated. I threw some diatomaceous earth around for the fungus gnats (that my lady introduced with her feeble bloody houseplants that I had to fix ...) and aside from all the drama, the girls are looking good.
20180507_061907_resized.jpg 20180507_061911_resized.jpg 20180507_061920_resized.jpg 20180507_061931_resized.jpg
I have one small clone that I'm going to reverse with the silver thiosulfate that is in one of the pics. I'm hoping to get some female pollen in about five weeks. Hopefully I'll gain a stockpile of seed from this lot in a few months. I'll take some cuttings in a four weeks for some monsters too, just to be safe.
I'll post more when get I get a chance. I hope everyone is well. Oh, a cool aside - I made gummy bears that are just kick-ass! They are all the rage with the older crowd who are looking for pain relief without loss of coherence. Have a good one!
- ZXC
 
dstroy

dstroy

Well-Known Member
ZxcStaz said:
That really looks nice, I love the precision work. When are you opening your store? I'd purchase them :), ...but we both know that the returns would not make up for the investment. I still enjoy the fantasy. How did they perform, did they all spring up?

On my end, our 97 year old grandfather passed. I have been occupied with the arrangements, ergo, not much input from me. Here is a hasty update, with hopes of reprieve from morbid life events and more regular updates;

The system is working well. I have four plants on the 12/12 for seven days now. I have switched to a 2-2-2 NPK fert, soon to a 1-2-3 as the pH is dropping as K usage is increasing. The RZC temps are still below 65F, and the cooling fans have not actuated. I threw some diatomaceous earth around for the fungus gnats (that my lady introduced with her feeble bloody houseplants that I had to fix ...) and aside from all the drama, the girls are looking good.
View attachment 4132769 View attachment 4132770 View attachment 4132771 View attachment 4132772
I have one small clone that I'm going to reverse with the silver thiosulfate that is in one of the pics. I'm hoping to get some female pollen in about five weeks. Hopefully I'll gain a stockpile of seed from this lot in a few months. I'll take some cuttings in a four weeks for some monsters too, just to be safe.
I'll post more when get I get a chance. I hope everyone is well. Oh, a cool aside - I made gummy bears that are just kick-ass! They are all the rage with the older crowd who are looking for pain relief without loss of coherence. Have a good one!
- ZXC
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Sorry to hear about your family stuff, it’s always hard when a loved one passed.

We like edibles a lot as well for that reason. We just use tincture that I make and add it to whatever candy, works great. How did you do yours?

I use a product that contains BTi to kill gnats, and you can dilute it enough to add it straight to your reservoir. It’s pretty fast acting.

https://www.amazon.com/Ecological-Labs-AEL20036-Mosquito-Treatment/dp/B007UTE55A/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1525824828&sr=8-7&keywords=BTi

What time during the photoperiod were those pics taken?

What are your canopy temps? Humidity inside the tent?

What ph is your nutrient solution? What is the rate of ph change? How often is the entire volume of nutrient solution recirculated? What is its EC? What is the EC of the first pass effluent (for ballpark feed rate)? How often, and for what duration are your feed cycles now?

Is your system still running hybrid?
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Hey Dstroy!

How is it going? It's good to hear from you!
I'll try to run right down the list to answer as many of the questions as I can.
* Extraction/decarboxylation was performed using vegetable glycerine/olive oil/coconut oil and ethanol at 200 F for an hour. Separation of the keef from the solvent was performed with a French press coffee extractor. The solvent/THC was the base for the gelatin solution.

*The photo of the plants was taken about an hour into the photoperiod. The PAR at the point of the picture was 800 uMol, so the picture might be bleached out for human eyes.

*Canopy temperature/humidity - Canopy temperature is at 85-86 F and RH is at 50%. These are controlled by thermostats and humidistats on individual 8" inline exhaust fans. The fans exhaust to the outdoors.

*Nutrient solution composition - This is complicated. I mix my own nutes from chemical salts. I base my formulas on commercial products and formulas from previous growers. I usually up the micros and go with standard NPK ratios for veg/early flower/late flower. These run 3/2/1, then 2/2/2, and lastly 1/2/3. These are supplemented with micros and adjuncts that deviate from commercial formulas. I could go into a whole thread about the nutrients, but suffice to say that my concentration doesn't change that much from week to week considering the whole reservoir of volume. I'll expound upon this more.

*pH change rate - the pH drops from 6.2-5.6 before adjustments are made. This usually occurs over the course of five days. The pH is complicated because in the HPS system it is lower, it is about 0.4 pH units lower than the LPS system. These systems hit an equilibrium after four days of a nutrient change, and the whole system hits an equilibrium of about 5.8. The pH controller, adding phosphorous, maintains a pH of 6.0-6.2.

*Recirculation time/full volume change - These are difficult to calculate, but if I was to ballpark it I would say that the full 50 gallons gets recirculated once a day.

*EC and rate of EC change - EC is approximately equal to 1.1 or 800 ppm. The EC changes from 800 to 720 ppm over the course of four days, but because the transpiration is high due to the low RH the concentration remains relatively stable.

*Feed cycles and timing : (All times on: total off)
HPS spray-6 sec./4 min.
Drip system-30 sec./15 min.
LPS-15 sec./15 min.

So, yes, still a hybrid system. In my opinion the plants are still thriving. I hope that I covered everything, but if you still have more questions or if I was obscure let me know and I'll do my best to answer your questions. Sorry I'm weird, I had a bunch of gummy bears :)
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
There are several reasons why vinyl gloves were invented. One of these reasons, I have vividly recalled, is silver nitrate. Do you know that being even slightly impaired, maybe due to ingestion of intoxicating substances - maybe because it's been 48 hours since you've slept (I don't know, I'm just saying... , just in case...), is really not a good condition to be in when working with silver nitrate? You see, silver nitrate is a chemical that is used to develop photographs. What I mean is that once this innocuous looking, transparent solution is exposed to ultraviolet light, Wham! it turns black.
This chemical reaction is essential for the development of photographic films, and it has paved the way for many of our beloved movie stars. Silver nitrate is a god among chemicals, akin to plutonium, arsenic, and nitroglycerine. But, it is Bacchanalian! Sure it will perform miracles when used to reverse the sex of a plant, but just get one abhorrent drop on you...
I look like I have reverse Vitiligo. My fingers developed like a Polaroid picture as I walked into work. The deep blue-black stains seem to go through three layers of skin. I look like a chemical neophyte. I'm just glad that in my impaired condition I didn't become auto-amorous, or else I really would look HUGE, just like an adult film movie star... :)
 
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dstroy

dstroy

Well-Known Member
ZxcStaz said:
Hey Dstroy!

How is it going? It's good to hear from you!
I'll try to run right down the list to answer as many of the questions as I can.
* Extraction/decarboxylation was performed using vegetable glycerine/olive oil/coconut oil and ethanol at 200 F for an hour. Separation of the keef from the solvent was performed with a French press coffee extractor. The solvent/THC was the base for the gelatin solution.

*The photo of the plants was taken about an hour into the photoperiod. The PAR at the point of the picture was 800 uMol, so the picture might be bleached out for human eyes.

*Canopy temperature/humidity - Canopy temperature is at 85-86 F and RH is at 50%. These are controlled by thermostats and humidistats on individual 8" inline exhaust fans. The fans exhaust to the outdoors.

*Nutrient solution composition - This is complicated. I mix my own nutes from chemical salts. I base my formulas on commercial products and formulas from previous growers. I usually up the micros and go with standard NPK ratios for veg/early flower/late flower. These run 3/2/1, then 2/2/2, and lastly 1/2/3. These are supplemented with micros and adjuncts that deviate from commercial formulas. I could go into a whole thread about the nutrients, but suffice to say that my concentration doesn't change that much from week to week considering the whole reservoir of volume. I'll expound upon this more.

*pH change rate - the pH drops from 6.2-5.6 before adjustments are made. This usually occurs over the course of five days. The pH is complicated because in the HPS system it is lower, it is about 0.4 pH units lower than the LPS system. These systems hit an equilibrium after four days of a nutrient change, and the whole system hits an equilibrium of about 5.8. The pH controller, adding phosphorous, maintains a pH of 6.0-6.2.

*Recirculation time/full volume change - These are difficult to calculate, but if I was to ballpark it I would say that the full 50 gallons gets recirculated once a day.

*EC and rate of EC change - EC is approximately equal to 1.1 or 800 ppm. The EC changes from 800 to 720 ppm over the course of four days, but because the transpiration is high due to the low RH the concentration remains relatively stable.

*Feed cycles and timing : (All times on: total off)
HPS spray-6 sec./4 min.
Drip system-30 sec./15 min.
LPS-15 sec./15 min.

So, yes, still a hybrid system. In my opinion the plants are still thriving. I hope that I covered everything, but if you still have more questions or if I was obscure let me know and I'll do my best to answer your questions. Sorry I'm weird, I had a bunch of gummy bears :)
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Nice, thanks dude. Me too, finals week is over so it's party time. I don't know too much about chemistry, all of my expertise is in electronics.

Maybe take this with a grain of salt because our environments are different, but I found that the plants were much happier in the 58-60%rh range inside the tent, veg or flower. You should be able swing that no problem with the transpiration surface area you have in that tent right now.

I've been reading about turgor pressure, and can explain some of my observations adequately now,

The higher the turgor pressure, the larger the leaf expansion will be. A way to eyeball it is to look at even the lower fan leaves, but especially the top. Ensure, through adequate food supply and environment, that they are perpendicular to the mainstem in an untrained plant. If the turgor pressure is too high or too low negative effects can occur in some varieties, but not all.

Sometimes, people observe high turgor pressure and interpret that as an extremely happy plant, which is usually the case, but not always.

Of course, every variety has its quirks, and I know you're a fan of careful observation, so I hope this helps you spot unknowns in your system.
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
Whatttt???? Finals are done??? Okay, okay .... I know how to handle this apocalypse. This is what you need to do right away; chain yourself behind a 6" reinforced steel door. Bring Valium, munchies, and beer, and don't emerge for three weeks. Even if you hear the siren call of sophomore nymphocites and the chants of fraternity mayhem, do not leave. Dire events await, you may be kidnapped by a derelict militant sorority, forced to drink excessive amounts of alcohol, and wear a dress...

Damn, that was an unwarranted flashback...

Okay, anyway --- reality --- so, Dstroy, I did have some root loss with the forefront plant when I transplanted it. Approximately 40% of the rootball was lost in the move. It was stressed for about two weeks, and is now coming back. That might be the droopy leaves that are evident. The majority of the plants look like they have the correct osmotic pressure.

You provide great knowledge about turgor pressure, and it makes complete sense! I can totally see how leaf position can be an indicator of salinity, transpiration/humidity, and watering schedule aberrations. I do base many of my environmental corrections on leaf conditions. Your research and ideas correspond to, and reinforce, the empirical paradigms pertaining to almost every aspect of environmental growing conditions. Thank you for redirecting my thoughts to the leafs, I have to remember that it's not all math - I have to consider the plant too.

... Ah crap, I was going for a sweet total wrap-up conclusion, but I just got distracted and I also find only ice cubes in my glass... I forget where I was...

ugh, ZXC
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
So, here is an update on the experiment.

Recently the ambient temperatures have ranged from 50-86 F. Tent temps have been elevated (82-94), but the fans have kept it below 100 F on the warmer nights. With the CO2 supplementation, I think the plants have tolerated it well. The reservoir has been losing about 15 gallons/day, yet maintaining salinity and pH. The ppm's have ranged from 900 to 720, but lately they have increased from the basal 820 to 860. I added H2O as a top up, and it changed the pH.

The pH controller has been adding H3PO4 and Carbonates, but I have supplemented this with HNO3 and H2SO4 in an alternating fashion to maintain elemental balance. Occasionally a dose of K2SiO3 is used to increase the pH, and aid cellular defenses. For a while there the plants were sucking K, but these recent data suggest that they need more P and maybe some N. With the next full reservoir change I'll stay with the 2-2-2, pop in some NH4, and keep the concentration at 850 ppm.

20180517_203445_resized.jpg 20180517_203456_resized.jpg 20180517_203501_resized.jpg 20180517_203523_resized.jpg

They are starting to flower at about two weeks into the 12/12, and it's looking promising. The increased square footage of the grow room has allowed the plants to naturally spread out, and I haven't had to SCROG them. The final mass tally will dictate the deviation, positive or negative, and let me know which technique to use with the next crop.

Five more clones have rooted, it is most likely the elevated ambient temperature that elicited rooting. I'm going to put them in the natural light for the summer. There is not much else I can do with them.

The Sex-reversal plant, hither to be known as " She-Man! " (exclamation needed), looks stressed where the AgNO3/Ag2S2O3 coalesced on the leaf tips. With the next application I might not add SM-90, as it seems to amplify the concentration and create an osmotic imbalance. She-Man! has not yet expressed sex glands, but another week should do the trick. A picture is not included because the author was having a cocktail and missed the light cycle window ... but rest assured that one will be forthcoming.

I'm leaving out a bunch of stuff, but If requested I'll provide it. It's Friday eve- and I'm looking forward to the weekend, albeit a rainy one. As always, wishing everyone well.

Cherish every moment and spread love,

- ZXC
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
PetFlora said:
https://www.heliospectra.com/articles/the-forgotten-spectrum-and-importance-of-green-light-for-crop-quality/
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Hey PetFlora,
How are you these days? Thanks for the link to the article. I'll do some more research on green light wavelengths and plant physiology.
I do provide a full spectrum. The pictures from the phone camera emphasize the purple colours. If the camera could capture what we see, the image would look more natural. I have 4000K and 6000K white 50W COB LED's mounted in the tent ceiling that are not evident in the pictures. These provide the greens and make the visual spectrum more full. There is a pretty uniform distribution of PAR throughout the grow area, and it's delivering an average of 800 uMol, as per readings from the Apogee MQ-200 quantum meter. Any additional light fixtures will create a heat problem, so I can't round out the spectrum any more. I have been looking into creating a liquid-cooled COB LED array, but that is for the next grow.
- ZXC
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Very well, thanks.

The general 'ideal' ratio of RBG is

Veg ~ 15% blue (450) + 85% neutral white (the reds help with root development)

Flower ~ 5% blue (450) + 80% Warm white + ~ 10% 630- 660 + some IR

See Amare Technologies website (25% discount, too)

hth
 
ZxcStaz

ZxcStaz

Active Member
PetFlora said:
The general 'ideal' ratio of RBG is
Click to expand...
Hey PetFlora,
I just purchased 50 chips;110VAC COB LED (50W) full spec, 10 chips; (50W) 3000K, and 10 chips; (50W) 6000K of the COB LED's for less than $200. I'm constructing an aluminum (Al) water cooled heat sink to reduce the tent temperature and drive the PAR for the next grow. There will be greens incorporated into the spectrum, but it will be heavy on the Blue-Red side. I believe that photosystem I and photosystem II chlorophylls will have the majority of the energy, but the carotenoids will also play a role. This should round out the growth cycle and increase yield.
- ZXC
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
ZxcStaz said:
Hey PetFlora,
I just purchased 50 chips;110VAC COB LED (50W) full spec, 10 chips; (50W) 3000K, and 10 chips; (50W) 6000K of the COB LED's for less than $200. I'm constructing an aluminum (Al) water cooled heat sink to reduce the tent temperature and drive the PAR for the next grow. There will be greens incorporated into the spectrum, but it will be heavy on the Blue-Red side. I believe that photosystem I and photosystem II chlorophylls will have the majority of the energy, but the carotenoids will also play a role. This should round out the growth cycle and increase yield.
- ZXC
Click to expand...

all 3000K-6500 cobs have 'green' in them, much more in the 6500s. You should not need to add any 'green'.

You want roughly 80% 6500 for veg, 50/50 for early flower then 20:80 (6500/3000) for flower
 
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