High Pressure Aeroponics

Atomizer said:

You need a stable mist environment to initiate aero root growth, the LPA delivery will effectively be resetting the clock every 20 minutes Running 300ppm mist 3 minutes after an 850ppm LPA flood serves no useful purpose. The exception is when running drippers to keep limited media moist in a netpot while the plant grows aero roots. In that situation you would use RO with no nutes in it for the drippers and low strength nutes for the mist to encourage roots out of the netpot.

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Happy Easter Atomizer! Good to hear from you, I hope all is well that life is good for you.

You know, I just knew that I was going to offend your sensibilities with my little experiment. I even told PetFlora not to tell you about the HPA/LPA hybrid that I am attempting because I admire your HPA knowledge and dedication to the science. ( ... of course you could have found out, it's all in the thread, I just didn't want to offend.) I thought you were shunning me for even attempting this, I'm really glad you posted.

So, here is my thought process, if you'll indulge me...
The System:
The drippers- run 20s on /19min 40s off, using the Aquatech 5800 pump, 3.8 LPM open flow. These pull off of the main rez, full nutes, adjuncts, bennies, hormones - pH 5.8 controlled/stable.
LPS- This runs for 30s on/ 59min 30s off, using the IWAKI 11.4 gpm pump. The anti back-flow valves and nozzles throttle the flow a bit, but they deliver a good spray coverage, main rez draw.
HPS- This runs for 5s on/ 3min 55s off. 80 psi, light nutes, pH 5.8, variable.

* All of these parameters will be adjusted in response to plant growth and because I'm just going on the theoretical at this time.

So the drippers provide a fail safe and a full nutrient base down the middle of the root mass. This provides a reservoir of elements for the plant to draw on while providing a modicum of water to at least some of the roots.
The LPA washes and hydrates the whole root mass, pulls heat from the RZC, and supplies adjuncts, hormones, and microbes to the system. In addition to this, this system flushes accumulated salts from the root mass.
The HPA system keeps the roots hydrated consistently. It also supplements the primary nutrient for the growth phase i.e; N2 for veg, P for bloom.

Considerations:
I don't know if R.O. water would be good for the roots; osmotic pressure and turgidity may have a detrimental effect.
The LPS might discourage HPA root development, but it carries heat and insures hydration every hour.
The drip system spans from clone to flower, and offers a layer of protection.
HPA provides nutrient supplementation, hydration, oxygenation, and some heat carrying.
The main goal of the system is to fulfill the requirement of a redundant fail safe system, that will take a plant from clone/seedling to flower optimally.
Development of HPA roots would be cool, but it is not a benchmark for this experiment. HPA is an augment, and hopefully the benefits of this method will be actualized by its incorporation in the system.
Again, hey - I love your input, keep it coming please! You have already prompted me to reevaluate and reconsider options for this project, in addition to all of the perfect additions e.g.; the trampoline fabric, pressure regulator, and not taking Sara home...wait ...Oops, crap that was something completely different...
Anyway,
Have a great one Atomizer, and I look forward to your thoughts!
- zxc

ZxcStaz said:

Hi PetFlora!
How is it going out there? I had one messed up clone that I revived, and three seedlings. Those are the four plants I have right now, but I'm going to make more clones....eventually? Maybe? (They better root soon ... @Uc%er's!)
That's a sweet idea, using a manifold with fine-mist nozzles. Where did you obtain those and how much are they? I like it.
So, your feed cycle... Is the lpa twist just supplying the nutrients and another system keeps them hydrated? It seems like 40-60 min off cycle would be pretty long if they are not getting misted by some other source of water. Another thing that I wonder about is the concentration of the nutrient solution.
In my system the HPA mist is at about 300ppm, but the drippers and LPA is at about 850 ppm. Essentially, they get a dose of full compliment veg. nutrients every 20 minutes. Then, every 3 min they get a HPA mist at 300 ppm, nitrogen stacked with minimal P/K.

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Sorry, these are from my hpa days, many moons ago, but I did buy them on line

hth

Atomizer said:

You need a stable mist environment to initiate aero root growth, the LPA delivery will effectively be resetting the clock every 20 minutes Running 300ppm mist 3 minutes after an 850ppm LPA flood serves no useful purpose. The exception is when running drippers to keep limited media moist in a netpot while the plant grows aero roots. In that situation you would use RO with no nutes in it for the drippers and low strength nutes for the mist to encourage roots out of the netpot.

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Am I missing something here?: Above you said: "Running 300ppm mist 3 minutes after an 850ppm LPA flood serves no useful purpose."

They are at 300ppm now, after I transfer them, giving them a couple days in case they need to adjust, then I will increase to ~ 500ppm. I don't get to 850 until latter part of mid flower

Maybe you misunderstood?

PetFlora said:

Am I missing something here?: Above you said: "Running 300ppm mist 3 minutes after an 850ppm LPA flood serves no useful purpose."

They are at 300ppm now, after I transfer them, giving them a couple days in case they need to adjust, then I will increase to ~ 500ppm. I don't get to 850 until latter part of mid flower

Maybe you misunderstood?

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Hey PetFlora,
I think Atomizer was responding to my post about the nutrient dispensations and timings that I have with this new system. I don't think that you mentioned your nutrient concentration.
300 to 500 ppm will work if the plants transpire a lot or they are very young. They look good though, and I'll bet that he'll clarify soon.
- zxc

Here is a look at the control center. From the top left, the 73.8 pound reading displays the water mass in the accumulator tank. It's really easy to see the mass of every water dispensation because it's so sensitive ( I know weight is not mass ). Adjacent to it is the Blue Labs pH controller that keeps the pH at 5.9. It really works well. I sometimes add a chunk of KOH just to watch it work, hehehe. There is also a tank pressure gauge, but it isn't as sensitive as the scale.
The next two monitors that jump out are the Blue Labs Germination monitors. The one on the left reads the accumulator fill tank, the one on the right monitors the main rez and acts as a check to the pH controller. These have been performing flawlessly. It's better than sliced bread.
The GFIC bank powers the six pumps and the timers associated with each. The Arlo camera can display all of this data to me remotely, but I cannot yet remotely effect changes, just monitor.
The pump plugs are numbered and it is key information when something goes awry. I have used this to my benefit so many times already.
This is a look into my insanity. I think it's cool. I'll post more madness soon for the kindred demented spirits out there.
zxc

The thread title kinda lead me to think it wasnt a hybrid but you should grow with whatever you feel comfortable with
Theres nothing wrong with failsafes and redundancy as long as they dont have a negative impact on peformance. My failsafes are spare timers and solenoid coils, i havent needed them yet.
Fwiw, a pure hpa can take a plant from clone to flower optimally, a hybrid may be safer but it wont be optimal.
Pure hpa can be run dtw so there are fewer unknowns. It would be expensive to run any lpa hybrid dtw
To dial in the nutes you`ll need some idea of what the plants are using from the hpa, lpa and drip sections. Measuring the combined run off wont provide any clues for adjustment and as changes in ph and ppm can take hours to show up in a large res you`ll always be behind the curve. With dtw nutes, you can monitor the difference between the in/out ppms in realtime which makes it very easy to optimise.
If you get brave enough to run it with just the hpa, you`ll find its a lot more reliable than you imagined.

Atomizer said:

The thread title kinda lead me to think it wasnt a hybrid but you should grow with whatever you feel comfortable with
Theres nothing wrong with failsafes and redundancy as long as they dont have a negative impact on peformance. My failsafes are spare timers and solenoid coils, i havent needed them yet.
Fwiw, a pure hpa can take a plant from clone to flower optimally, a hybrid may be safer but it wont be optimal.
Pure hpa can be run dtw so there are fewer unknowns. It would be expensive to run any lpa hybrid dtw
To dial in the nutes you`ll need some idea of what the plants are using from the hpa, lpa and drip sections. Measuring the combined run off wont provide any clues for adjustment and as changes in ph and ppm can take hours to show up in a large res you`ll always be behind the curve. With dtw nutes, you can monitor the difference between the in/out ppms in realtime which makes it very easy to optimise.
If you get brave enough to run it with just the hpa, you`ll find its a lot more reliable than you imagined.

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And that is why I call you Dr. Atomizer.

Thank you. That was just awesome.

My experiment started as pure HPA and progressed to what it is now. The title now seems deceptive, but it was an evolution, not intended as a deception, nor constructed with any malicious in intent. Regardless, if the end justifies the means, I am absolved, and hopefully shrived in your eyes. Additionally, thank you for your well constructed response. I know the expense involved, and I'm honored that you gave me your time and thoughts. You are appreciated and revered as an expert in the field. I only wish we could converse over a couple of drinks and create a truly awesome system.

I have to chew through all of the information you just provided to address every aspect, on the whole, I agree. One salient point was the expense. Here is the kicker; I'm only doing this for fun. I can't use THC - it makes me violent. I grow for the love of it, and cannabis for my friends. I love this hobby, and since I can spare a few bucks, I can delve into the science of it all. Besides, if I can make a few people happy and healthy along the way, bonus.

As this is progressing and I see the plant responses, I could totally adjust the system for full HPA. Over the last few hours I have reduced the dispensations because the flow is in excess. Given more data, and empirical knowledge, I'll compensate accordingly - maybe to the point of full HPA. I still want to see the effects of a hybrid system, heterozygous advantage and all...
Well, thanks again for your insights. Please shoot me any thoughts that spring to mind. (Not to assume that my project is in the forefront of your thoughts.) And, if you will, post any discoveries or revelations that emerge, even if not related! I thrive on the cutting edge, and just enjoy your posts!

Thanks again,

- ZXC

He’s right, getting a recirculating system dialed in was very difficult without knowing what exactly the plants are using and what they aren’t. Essential info if you want to do add backs. I don’t add any fertilizer after initial mixing. All I do is top up the res daily with RO water until the concentration drops below what I’m comfortable with which takes about 4-7 days. My fertilizer is very cheap or I would lower the initial concentration and run drain to waste. Right now it’s just 170g/40gal sometimes I add slightly more 186g/40gal, but always 1.2-1.6EC initially, when it drops to 0.9-1.0EC it gets changed. Costs me about $1.25 in fertilizer to change unless I’m using mammoth p (which I only use once a month, enough to recharge the colonies that live in my filters). If I go longer than a month without adding it motility drops a lot. If I go longer than a week without changing the plants start to show signs of stress especially if the flowering tent has plants in it during early stretch and late flowering.

But it took me the better part of a year to get this figured out to the point I have it at now. Once you get the HPA part working correctly for your specific setup you will be rewarded with some insane growth.

Here is my 4x4 flower tent, taken today, day 22 since flipping to 12/12

Good luck, hope you get it all sorted and working the way you want

dstroy said:

He’s right, getting a recirculating system dialed in was very difficult without knowing what exactly the plants are using and what they aren’t. Essential info if you want to do add backs. I don’t add any fertilizer after initial mixing. All I do is top up the res daily with RO water until the concentration drops below what I’m comfortable with which takes about 4-7 days. My fertilizer is very cheap or I would lower the initial concentration and run drain to waste. Right now it’s just 170g/40gal sometimes I add slightly more 186g/40gal, but always 1.2-1.6EC initially, when it drops to 0.9-1.0EC it gets changed. Costs me about $1.25 in fertilizer to change unless I’m using mammoth p (which I only use once a month, enough to recharge the colonies that live in my filters). If I go longer than a month without adding it motility drops a lot. If I go longer than a week without changing the plants start to show signs of stress especially if the flowering tent has plants in it during early stretch and late flowering.

But it took me the better part of a year to get this figured out to the point I have it at now. Once you get the HPA part working correctly for your specific setup you will be rewarded with some insane growth.

Here is my 4x4 flower tent, taken today, day 22 since flipping to 12/12

Good luck, hope you get it all sorted and working the way you want

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Idk... I havent dumped my water since I started my system 2 months ago. I have been recirculating. Worst thing that happened to me was an ART dNE timer. Fuck analog timers.

I switched out one tefen mister so far. They do a really poor job of throwing mist. I like my no name stainless misters better. They have a 60 psi check valve and throw a cone of mist a good foot before it drifts.

That's funny. I have same analog timer, it's 5-7 years old. in constant use (24/7) to operate recirculating pumps in each rezes.

I think something isn't properly dialed in. I ran 3 grows with hpa, sans tanks, solenoids... and still got cotton candy roothairs

Here are my roots in a lpa system I developed, and used for the first time for this grow. It uses 3 hpa mist heads; pump is 240 gph. Same timer as yours: 2 minutes on and 30-40 minute pauses (24/7). Note the mist head at the bottom of the frame. 3 mist heads spread ~ 9" (I wonder whether doubling the gph would turn the sprinkling into more of a mist?). Anyway, the mist heads aim straight up, some 6-8 below the net pots, lightly sprinkling upwards. I am very happy with these roots which are now transferred to their F & D homes, which I did Saturday. Plants are 5 weeks old, on the runt side because I had a big ass plant root system dominating the food. Turned out it was a male. The roots are those of the plants. Unfortunately, they were on the extreme outside, barley getting enough nutrient solution. The transition to the totes weas smooth, no droop. That said I have been hand feeding a couple times a day, as there is some 6" of root above the fill line

Sorry, hope I didn't get too carried away. Atomizer helped me out a lot back then, always answering my many questions. This thread is richer for his presence. Maybe he can offer some advice

Art dne timers are a disgrace to the world of relays. I have a ct-1 or something that outpreforms every timer I have other than my arduinos which are finnicky in my concrete basement.

My system is dialed in now, I think? I cant veg no more. I have to take cuttings from my 6 week "mother" every couple of days now, because they keep overtaking each other.

I really aggresively topped, trimmed and supercropped the plants in flower. I kind of regret reading so much shit on the internet cause yall be contradicting each other.

There was no stretch. Bud sites will probably come up scrawny or choke each other out. Oh well, I'm learning, and now I know how to take clones and str8 flower.

I stopped running a sterile res. I am literally raising biofilm in my unpressurized res. It's great, I can flush some flowers while the others are growing. I don't have deficiencies during weekly "flushes" where I pour in a 60 ppm mixture of ro water and a microbial stabilizer. I add nutes 2 days later in a smaller top up.

One week I was busy and let one system run dry. It was just spritzing at 20 psi. I topped it up twice with stabilizer and let it run.

Tbh I dont feel like aero is hard. You just have to follow the basic guidelines and you are good.

Hello All.

I'm glad to have found this site and this form. I'm very interested in high pressure aeroponics and have designed a simple system, going to start construction next weekend. I have no back ground in growing this will be first attempted. I have so many question and very few answers. With any luck, I have come to the right place.

I'm going to have a reservoir for water and nutrients , but have no idea what to use for nutrients and when to add, and what to add and at what stage. I would like to keep it organic and as clean as possible. Any help is appreciated. Please keep it simple as I'm very new to all this. Any and all info is welcome Thanks so much for your time,

Mc2

Hi guys! Sorry about the down time… I had grades closing, standardized testing to proctor, AP Chemistry mock exams, SAT proctoring, and a one hell of a messed up week - Times two. In addition, I had to tweak the system, but that is for another post – let me address your posts:

dstroy said:

He’s right, getting a recirculating system dialed in was very difficult…

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Dstroy! Hey there man, how is it going? Nice… With this grow I have been keeping the EC around 1- 0.8. The plants have not liked the increased salinity, and it’s likely due to the lower humidity and increased transpiration. My tap water comes in at 0.07 EC, so I’m very close to R.O. I have stopped using my R.O. for the top-ups because I feel that the residual chloramines provide Cl and some antimicrobial sanitation. Yeah, the recirculation will make it more difficult to ascertain individual nutrient requirements, but I’m flushing every week, and spraying 50 or more gallons daily, so DTW at this point is untenable.

Nice looking plants! I have a feeling that I will edge toward full HPA, but I am gathering these data before I switch over. So far it’s promising, and I’ll keep you posted throughout.

Wesohoodrich said:

Fuck analog timers.

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Welcome Wesohoodrich!

I use NearPow infinite timers. They are cheap, so I buy a lot at a time. Once you get the programing down, they work nice. Here is a link :

https://www.amazon.com/Multifunctional-Infinite-Programmable-Appliances-Energy-saving/dp/B01G6O28NA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1523404239&sr=8-3&keywords=nearpow+timer+outlet

a2mc2 said:

Hello All.

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Hi A2mc2,

Good to hear from you, I like your name…light and mass ( e=mc2) ?

I am a chemist/biologist, and I can speak to the nutrient issues you have. First off, forget about all you have heard about “organic nutrients”, it’s a rip-off and will do more damage than good, unless you are growing in soil – and you know a lot about biology, chemistry, and microbiology.

For your first grow, go to a hydro store and ask for a one-part nutrient, like GH FloraGro, or something equivalent. This way all you need to contend with is your concentration - ( ppm, ec, or conductivity), and the acidity (pH), and temperature of your solution. Once you have some experience playing with these ( … and all the while dealing with your new aero system ), you can tweak your nutrients without too many unfamiliar variables. After a full grow, you can delve into eclectic and fashionable nutrient schedules without running the risk of killing all your plants “ …because it’s all natural…”

Remember that Small pox is natural too…

PetFlora said:

Here are my roots in a lpa system I developed

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PetFlora,

J Good to hear from you. There is no way I could leave you out buddy! How is the flood and drain system going? Did the Hybrid system minimize the transplant shock? I hope the grow is thriving, and that you are doing well!



So, Spring Break is coming up soon, and I’ll update the system progress then. I hope everyone is doing well, and I will talk to you guys soon.

- ZXC

ZxcStaz said:

Welcome Wesohoodrich!

I use NearPow infinite timers. They are cheap, so I buy a lot at a time. Once you get the programing down, they work nice. Here is a link :

https://www.amazon.com/Multifunctional-Infinite-Programmable-Appliances-Energy-saving/dp/B01G6O28NA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1523404239&sr=8-3&keywords=nearpow+timer+outlet

- ZXC

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Those are good timers. Ill use them next time, they are a fraction of the ct-1

Hi ZXC,

Thanks so much for the advice, I'll give that a try. In the mean time I'll keep a close eye on this thread, so I can pick up more knowledge. I'm very excited to give this a try. You are correct with the name !! Thanks for the time...

Mc2

OMG spring Break where I live means totally jammed beach 24/7

In my system, shock is minimized as both my starter and final F & D tote use 4" net pots. Slip out of one and insert into the other.

Potential shock problems arise when the rez does not have sufficient volume to accommodate 2 totes. A simple preflight test shows whether the system is capable of adequately wetting roots in 2 totes.

got that dialed in now, zero droop or shock

Atomizer said:

Fire some mist across (or even directly at) some trampoline jump mat fabric (aka permatron) and see how much mist makes it through. Insulation works both ways, it can keep heat in as well as out. Water drains through the entire chamber floor which is much better than via a small drain at one end of the chamber. When roots reach the fabric floor (or walls) they are air pruned which stops them in their tracks and causes new laterals to form back along the length of the root, With a screen mounted above the floor of a plastic tote, the airspace below it will be very humid (not dry) so you wont get any air pruning. The roots will just pile up on the screen.
You should count yourself lucky you weren`t here

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Greetings...new to the site and currently building my first HPA unit.. Atomizer, I was wondering about a chamber constructed from permatron fabric. What about light? I thought the chambers were built to keep light out? Maybe I have been wrong about that all along and that would open up a whole new perspective to the possibilities! I currently have my control system, pumping system, pressure tank and lights almost complete. Last task is my chambers. Was considering building 36" diameter pipe by 24" tall, but then came across this post.
Once I get all set up, I am hoping tocreate a post showing the system, layout and my grow log...looking forward to all of it!

Hi Corvek
Here`s a link to the chamber design description to save me some typing
https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-aero-theory.901613/#post-12906334

Atomizer said:

Hi Corvek
Here`s a link to the chamber design description to save me some typing
https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-aero-theory.901613/#post-12906334

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Awesome! Thanks for the link, explains it! Looking forward to reading more on the whole HPA subject.

Hi guys,

Here is an update. There were a few problems with the system, and one plant is looking battle worn. It’s been a busy week with other projects, crazy weather, and parties, but I think progress is being made.

The main issue with the dripper system is siphoning. The water level in the reservoir is higher than the RZC, so once the feed is established the water continuously flows. I thought this would be a problem so I installed check valves on the lines. This did not work. The water goes through the valves, even though the pressure is less than the listed crack pressure, and it accumulates in the trays. The remedy was solenoid valves. These were ordered and installed, now the trays do not flood.

I’m finding the same issue with the pumps. The check valves don’t keep the water in pipes, so the pumps lose prime. I installed a 3/4” solenoid valve on one pump to direct flow, but at $50 a valve, it’s going to be a nightmare to regulate all of the water flow.

The temperature in the RZC might be too low. The insulation is working too well. There is a 25 degree Fahrenheit difference between the growth zone and the RZC. With the CO2 supplementation I held the Growth Zone (GZ) temperature at 88F, but the RZC only climes to 62F. I am trying to normalize this by pumping warm GZ air into the RZC. I hope that this will oxygenate and elevate the temperature in the environment.

The afflicted plant is exhibiting signs of root stress. Leaf discolouration has manifest akin to nutrient deficiencies or a Phytophthora infection. The transplantation is most likely the cause, as the root ball was damaged during the transition, and I believe it is stressed in the new environment. I can only hope that my efforts will remedy this, but time will tell. I introduced Calcium hypochlorite to the system as a prophylactic and we’ll see if this elicits an equilibrium. I have yet to weigh the cytotoxic effects to benefit ratio in this incidence. I will keep updates forthwith.

This week I have been easing into a 18/6 light schedule. Next week I have to go to 12/12. There was a bonus; two of the clones rooted. I have one of them in a hybrid LPS areo / dripper bucket, and it is responding capital! The second has yet to establish hardy roots, so a few more days before the transition. Now I have to pick up more parts for another hybrid bucket…

I hope everyone is well and ready for the summertime! As long as the site doesn’t crash, I’ll be lurking throughout the grow! Updates soon, as long as I don’t slack. J Spread Love!



- ZXC