For All Cap Ebb and Grow Users

JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
Hey everyone i have read this thread from beginning to end.

I see you guys are doing some excellent things with this system. I on the other hand seem to be having pretty big issues so far. I have had tow crops fail (by fail i mean i got almost nothing out of the system I cut down the last crop completely).

Starting around week three the leaves will start to turn yellowing and getting paler the leaves will get some necrosis on the ends and get real soft and curl down. I have asked some guys over at icmag and even had a few of my good friends try and help. I have pictures and a thread going over at icmag.com

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=152860

There are pictures and stats there. I figured that maybe you guys could help as you are getting really good results with this system. Humidity seems to be getting higher as the plants get bigger could this cause less nutrient uptake because the plant can not transpire enough water?

Please help im wrecking my brain on this one:wall:
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
Well it's not the system's fault imo. When did you switch to RO water? House and Garden nutes? With good RO water and better nutes you should have no problems. Your temps and humidity are fine.

How often and how long are your floods? How often are you changing the rez? Using H2o2?
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
there have been some House and Garden spammers on RIU lately, clearly trying to create a buzz about their products. Probably doing it on other forums too. I just went to their website. Anything but clarity on what exactly is in their stuff. I'm on RIU enough to notice when new words or products suddenly start popping up in every thread. Roots excelurator is one product I've been hearing alot about, now I know where it's coming from.

Josephmama, I read your thread and looked at your pix. There's definitely a nutrient lockout going on and since you've switched to RO, either your plants were toast before that switch, or your House and Garden stuff is just not working for you. I'd definitely switch that out. It's not the system, now it's not your water. . You mentioned EC, but do you monitor and control pH? If you do, maybe your meter is broken, if you don't, well, you should.

This happens three weeks into FLOWERING? Like clockwork? That's when plants start screaming for extra magnesium. Looking at your plants as a whole, and not just the really bad leaves (and allowing for the HPS effect) it looks like quite a lot of your plant is showing intervenal chlorosis and tip burn. If they were turning crispy and crinkling upwards I'd say definitely mag def. You COULD try an epsom salts foliar treatment. Now that you are using RO water, there is probably not enough Cal or Mag (since House and Garden doesn't give guaranteed analyses of their products it's impossible to say.) It couldn't hurt. Certainly has saved my butt in the past.

Find Uncle Ben on this forum, show him your pix. He'll kick your ass and put you on the right track. HTH.
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
Ok here is the deal on the plants and the nutrients and what im doing

1) EC and PH are both checked daily with hannah pens I also use the PH test kit where you drop a few drops in the sample and it will tell you your PH range by color

2)The leaves do not actually get crispy they curl more downward and get kinda soft and light.

3) that was my old crop in the pictures this new crop looked AMAZING until a few days ago and started showing the same issues.
(i will post some more pix here as soon as i can get by there later today)

4) I have been using house and garden for at least 2years without ever seeing this issue. I have plants on an aeroflo that look amazing that are older than these running same nutrients and same RO'd water. While i am not discounting that it may be the nutrients I have never had issue in the past. All my containers seem to have a guaranteed analysis on them

5) my floods are every 4hours or so for 15min nothing in the dark cycle

6) the REZ was staged to be changed at the end of week three but i changed it at end of week two cuz i started noticing a little yellowing figured maybe they had sucked up all the nutrients as i had noticed the EC dropping a good bit along with the water level. I do have a big air pump pumping into the reservoir. During this change the EC was brought up to 2000 from around 1500 - 1700 week two started out at 1700 and dropped pretty quick to 1500

7) one guy told me that being as my room is sealed that i need to add some fresh air intakes. Could a lack of fresh air cause this?

I have noticed my humidity coming up into the 60%+ range recently prolley goin up higher at night cuz it cools off. I will have more concrete info later today

Oh and thanks for the amazingly fast responses.
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
Ebb and Grow is so easy we have nothing else to do:weed:

Actually, what do I know, you've grown more in this system than I!

Two questions;

if you look at the two bottles of House and Garden (I assume you are using Aqua Flakes a + b which is intended for recirculating systems; hydro a+b is for drain to waste systems) what percentages do you see for calcium and magnesium? I see they also have a cal-mag supplement and if the a+b doesn't have enough, because you are using RO water, you'll have to supplement with that (or any other cal-mag supplement).

o you calibrate your meters regularly? I just replaced mine and when I compared the new one and the old one side by side (after calibrating) they did not agree, not even close:dunce:, and since I've been using the new meter, I've seen far less spotting, yellowing, etc. Of course, that could be cause of new nutes, new medium, new system too. I used the old meter, a hanna combo pen, for almost two years and even though I didn't replace the probe, I should have. I just didn't want to spend that 50. I've learned my lesson. In this game, buy the gear; it will always pay you back.
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
shnkrmn said:
Ebb and Grow is so easy we have nothing else to do:weed:

Actually, what do I know, you've grown more in this system than I!

Two questions;

if you look at the two bottles of House and Garden (I assume you are using Aqua Flakes a + b which is intended for recirculating systems; hydro a+b is for drain to waste systems) what percentages do you see for calcium and magnesium? I see they also have a cal-mag supplement and if the a+b doesn't have enough, because you are using RO water, you'll have to supplement with that (or any other cal-mag supplement).

o you calibrate your meters regularly? I just replaced mine and when I compared the new one and the old one side by side (after calibrating) they did not agree, not even close:dunce:, and since I've been using the new meter, I've seen far less spotting, yellowing, etc. Of course, that could be cause of new nutes, new medium, new system too. I used the old meter, a hanna combo pen, for almost two years and even though I didn't replace the probe, I should have. I just didn't want to spend that 50. I've learned my lesson. In this game, buy the gear; it will always pay you back.
Click to expand...

LOL actually i have sucessfully grown in only the one system so far ;o) i would not consider what i have done with the Ebb and Grow much of a sucess

SO yeah I am not using a MG supplement or a Cal supplement on my aeroflow or my ebb and grow I was but i was told that A has more than enough iron in it but im seriously beginning to think its a Mg diff.

I calibrate my meter regularly (weekly) i also double check with the GH drip solution that changes the liquid colors for PH comparison against a chart (kinda like for fish tanks) .

Now you have me wondering please stay with me and tell me what you think....

Could it be that the reason im not having problems with the aeroflo and MG diff is that because the aeroflo is constantly cycling nutrients that even tho there may be very little Mg in the rez that the plant never shows a diff cuz its constantly pumping water and can pull on what is in the whole rez where the Ebb and Grow just floods that 2gal bucket and thus if the water is low in Mg it gets sucked out immediately causing this diff ??? possible?
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
Actually i was just on their site i did not see any MG or Cal additives advertised

Tho on this link from their distributer http://www.humboldtwholesale.com/House_Garden/AquaFlakesAB

I saw this : Contrary to what you might have heard with other nutrients, never use an oxygen pump in the nutrient container or in the growth table. This may have serious consequences for the stability of the nutrients.


This means no fish pump??? I got MASSIVE fish pumps...

if this could be the cause then
why did it wait til week three to cause issues??
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
JosephMama said:
LOL actually i have sucessfully grown in only the one system so far ;o) i would not consider what i have done with the Ebb and Grow much of a sucess

SO yeah I am not using a MG supplement or a Cal supplement on my aeroflow or my ebb and grow I was but i was told that A has more than enough iron in it but im seriously beginning to think its a Mg diff.

I calibrate my meter regularly (weekly) i also double check with the GH drip solution that changes the liquid colors for PH comparison against a chart (kinda like for fish tanks) .

Now you have me wondering please stay with me and tell me what you think....

Could it be that the reason im not having problems with the aeroflo and MG diff is that because the aeroflo is constantly cycling nutrients that even tho there may be very little Mg in the rez that the plant never shows a diff cuz its constantly pumping water and can pull on what is in the whole rez where the Ebb and Grow just floods that 2gal bucket and thus if the water is low in Mg it gets sucked out immediately causing this diff ??? possible?
Click to expand...
I can't argue with your thinking; it sounds very plausible to me. In the aeroflo the roots are probably exposed to several gallons of solution per hour; in the ebb and grow, they have to make do with the flood and remaining moisture.
 
shnkrmn

shnkrmn

Well-Known Member
You are right, I was confused with some other shopping I'm doing :)

Maybe they mean literally to bubble oxygen into the water; who knows what the dutch get up to? IIf they mean just a regular old airstone type oxygenating the water, how would the aeroflo not have an even greater problem since its whole action is one great big aeration?

JosephMama said:
Actually i was just on their site i did not see any MG or Cal additives advertised

Tho on this link from their distributer http://www.humboldtwholesale.com/House_Garden/AquaFlakesAB

I saw this : Contrary to what you might have heard with other nutrients, never use an oxygen pump in the nutrient container or in the growth table. This may have serious consequences for the stability of the nutrients.


This means no fish pump??? I got MASSIVE fish pumps...

if this could be the cause then
why did it wait til week three to cause issues??
Click to expand...
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
shnkrmn said:
You are right, I was confused with some other shopping I'm doing :)

Maybe they mean literally to bubble oxygen into the water; who knows what the dutch get up to? IIf they mean just a regular old airstone type oxygenating the water, how would the aeroflo not have an even greater problem since its whole action is one great big aeration?
Click to expand...
Yeah i just got off the phone with the guys at house and garden and was told it was the dutch guys who said that and they use air stones in the states with no problems that it has a tendency to kill off the beneficials in the root excellurator

I may up the floods to every 3 hours instead of every 4 and see what happens?? I mean i got beautiful roots coming out of the bottoms of the buckets at week 2

I will post pix from today when i get a out of here and can take a few
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
smokingrubber said:
You said you've got no fresh air Do you have Co2?
Click to expand...

nope I had vent holes with a fan but they got shut down by someone else when my fan died im thinking of disconnecting the straight thru hoses on my vent system for the lights.

IOW the intake holes for outside the room -> lights will be disconnected from the lights this will allow the vented hoods to pull air from inside the room and vent it out and the old intake vents for the lights will bring in fresh air to the room. That would approximate a good test ?

I will take pix of the vent set up (before and after) and post as well
 
smokingrubber

smokingrubber

Well-Known Member
JosephMama said:
nope I had vent holes with a fan but they got shut down by someone else when my fan died im thinking of disconnecting the straight thru hoses on my vent system for the lights.

IOW the intake holes for outside the room -> lights will be disconnected from the lights this will allow the vented hoods to pull air from inside the room and vent it out and the old intake vents for the lights will bring in fresh air to the room. That would approximate a good test ?

I will take pix of the vent set up (before and after) and post as well
Click to expand...
I am having a hard time reading a lot of that. But I can tell you that you definately need a good supply of fresh air from outdoors (or a Co2 tank). I would not hesitate to make that change asap.
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
boxing119 said:
morrisgreenberg- im sorry im a bit of a newbie but i want to switch my nutes to the PBP but im not sure what to get when i go to the hydro storm can you just simply tell me everything im supposed ti get lol, im a little under 3 weeks into veg and just not sure what i should be running[/QU
Botanicare's Pure Blend pro (not to be confused with "pure blend") is a one part stand alone solution, the cal-mag is especially needed if your using RO water or really low ppm out of the faucet(under 100ppm) in most cases the ppms in tap water is your basic calcium and magnesium, higher ppms is hard water, you probably can get away without the calmag, but i prefer calmag since it has a nitrogen boost in it, also good when you kick into bloom to prevent premature yellowing of the leaves(8-9week strains should see this yellowing at 6weeks) heres my reciple PBP grow,CALmag,Sweet and liquid karma, the sweet and LK are like 70 a gallon compared to $49 for the PBP, liqiud karma is basicaly thrivealive made out of kelp and vitamins, its very good for soaking your RW for clones and seedlings, i mix my LK along with 500ppm worth of PBP at transplant, ontop of that i give 1/2 dose of calmag 5ml/gal, after the first res full i discontinue the LK and run sweet and PBP and calmag, this stuff is very eay on your plants, i have yet to burn a single leafe using this stuff. i would have started using PBP line soon but it had a gaurenteed analysis of only N-P-K-cal-Mag i was was like where the hells the molybdenum,mangenese zinc and all that, well all the micro nutrients are in there but they will not put them on the label since they cannont gaurentee the percentages, they are very tiny amount, thats why they are trace minerals, but they are all there, this line is made from half organics and half chems, i swear by it
Click to expand...
 
morrisgreenberg

morrisgreenberg

Well-Known Member
Joseph, the first pic if a phosph or potsh Def, i dont remember which but its clear to me, the next one looks like light bleaching, the last one i will agree with whoever said the plant is screaming for Mag, especially since you recently started using an Ro unit, add calmag, but before you do that, your plants have had around 8-9 weeks of life between veg and flower right? FLUSH YOUR SYSTEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! every 4 weeks or atleast once right before you start adding bloom nutes, for a fast sampl test to let you know whats going on take a water sample from the bottom of one of your buckets and compare the PH and nute strength vs your original fresh res strength, if they are off by say 200-300ppm (not sure on EC conversions) then you need a flush, maybe florakleen or clearex...if you have a flushing solution do not listen to the lable, our systems need a minimum of 24 hour flush or around 8 flood cycle, you will know when you can dump your flushing solution when the EC/ppm stops rising, check your EC after each flood cycle and they will be on the rise do to salts collecting on the clay pellets i assume you use, this will skew your rootzone PH causing lockouts, i can assure you this is what you need to do since this is almost routine and just about sounds right, 3 weeks into flower with added veg time you will have major salt build up, also i dont like your nute strenght aswell i believe an EC of 2.0 converts to about 1200ppm, depending on strain this may be the height of your feed thus giving you a hint of nute burn aswell. so remember, excesive salts binded to your medium will cause lockout
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
shnkrmn said:
YAY! The cavalry has arrived!!!

lol
Click to expand...

ok here are some pix taken a few hours ago

morrisgreenberg I have taken samples from both the rez and the pots EC and PH are almost identical. Up until my friend raised the EC to 2000 it was dropping the EC by a few hundred points every few days. Now not so much... I brought it down a good bit today and I will be replacing with clear water for a few days on friday. I will say the plants looked darker green than the last time i saw them.

I talked to the tech support at House and Garden and was told that they are designed to be used with RO water that no additives were needed. They were thinking that it is overfertalization. I dunno I agree that 2000 EC is a bit high at 3weeks flowering.

They have only been in these pots for 3 weeks by the way. I had them in 4'' square pots in a flood table before that for about 4 weeks at about 1100 - 1200 EC i think that is about 500 - 600 PPM
Transplanted into these buckets when i switched the light cycle to 12/12 that has been about 18Days. I had the flood cycle at every 4 hours but I was thinking maybe they are sucking up all the nutrients in there. At 18 days if you try and pull on the stalk it will try and bring up all the rox in one chunk. That is how they came out of the 4" pots as well.

Also the leaves in the pics are not crunchy they are soft and papery feeling.

more pix to follow...
 

Attachments

mrduke

mrduke

Well-Known Member
next time you should veg in the buckets. It makes the root form like the bottom of the bucket and keeps them from hanging out the bottom to much, they'll clump up at the bottom of the inner pot. At the very least veg for one week in the buckets. I have no ideal if this has anything to do with your leaf problems but I'm sure it will help your final out come.
 
JosephMama

JosephMama

Active Member
mrduke said:
next time you should veg in the buckets. It makes the root form like the bottom of the bucket and keeps them from hanging out the bottom to much, they'll clump up at the bottom of the inner pot. At the very least veg for one week in the buckets. I have no ideal if this has anything to do with your leaf problems but I'm sure it will help your final out come.
Click to expand...

I should try that...
I will say when i took the plants out of the pots the roots were shaped like the pot one nice beautiful white clump. They had roots coming out of the bottom also. I think these are starting to get that way when you look thru the holes you can see a ton of them up in there
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top