Flush rant

Siino Gardens said:

advanced nutrients

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Haha yeah. First time using them, seems to be doing the trick, although I'll probs move over to the Raw Solubles after this grow to see if they're any good. You used A.N. before then I take it?

The flushing thing was started by some dude i forget his name on Overgrow.com way back in the day. I remember the exact thread a actually. I think it was the last 3 days or something like that. Now its turned into gospel and its 2 weeks. Gimme a fukin break. If you dont cram alot of salts in your medium.....decent runoff every feed....your fine. Flushing doesnt do a damn thing. I remember when the myth started....its complete bullshit folks. Your tasting a placebo effect for cryin out loud. And you white ash black ash dorks....cmon man. Were growing dope here. Learn how to dry and cure your buds. So much bullshit about growing cannabis. Not alot of people know the science behind photosynthesis and horticulture. Fortunately you dont really have to with C3 plants like marijuana.

The plants themselves need nutrients to grow/repair. The nutrients are taken in through the roots as ions in the medium's water. To my understanding these ions or nutrients, are not converted into glucose or starch until photosynthesis happens in the chloroplast. Which means that at any given time a plants stalk has nutrient ions inside.. nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous plus all the macronutrients. It was mentioned way earlier in this thread that nutrients are converted into glucose/starches mostly in the roots. But this is not true as the conversion of nutrients into glucose/starches happens in the chloroplast. Which is primarily located in the leafs. Glucose is used regularly for the growth/repair of the plant. Starches are ultimately stored in the chloroplast as granules. The plant can access these starches when needed.

So now lets talk about the goals of flushing.. the theory or myth as you call it.
The goals when I flush is to

1. Remove excess salts in the medium. Which without a doubt I think everyone can agree that its useful just for this specific reason. Lets not get into a debate about how people should feed their plants. This is a whole different subject from flushing in my opinion.

2. Remove excess nutrient ions in the plants system. (Which does include the flower.)
When you cut a plant down that has been fed recently with nutrient solution and the soil is still somewhat damp. There are nutrient ions within the plant. This means that at some point after the initial cutting of either the whole plant or a branch, photosynthesis stops all together leaving these ions trapped inside or near the chloroplast before or during conversion into glucose/starches.

3. To get the plant to cannibalize itself. This goes hand in hand with the removal of nutrient ions. Once the ions are depleted the plant will begin to use the starches located primarily in the leafs/chloroplast. Whos to say whether the plant is converting new glucose or using the more readily available starches is better? And if you are certain which is better please explain in full detail why.

I understand the argument that plants should be fed until the last day to maximize growth/yield.
But my argument is that the starches will provide enough energy for the plant during the last 10 days of the plants life. In fact it may even be healthier for the plant to use those starches that have been getting stored up since day 1. In some cases it may even provide an explosion in bud growth depending on how fast the starches are being used up.
Having said that.. There are many instances where this exact outcome has happened during my flushes.

GhostBud420 said:

The plants themselves need nutrients to grow/repair. The nutrients are taken in through the roots as ions in the medium's water. To my understanding these ions or nutrients, are not converted into glucose or starch until photosynthesis happens in the chloroplast. Which means that at any given time a plants stalk has nutrient ions inside.. nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous plus all the macronutrients. It was mentioned way earlier in this thread that nutrients are converted into glucose/starches mostly in the roots. But this is not true as the conversion of nutrients into glucose/starches happens in the chloroplast. Which is primarily located in the leafs. Glucose is used regularly for the growth/repair of the plant. Starches are ultimately stored in the chloroplast as granules. The plant can access these starches when needed.

So now lets talk about the goals of flushing.. the theory or myth as you call it.
The goals when I flush is to

1. Remove excess salts in the medium. Which without a doubt I think everyone can agree that its useful just for this specific reason. Lets not get into a debate about how people should feed their plants. This is a whole different subject from flushing in my opinion.

2. Remove excess nutrient ions in the plants system. (Which does include the flower.)
When you cut a plant down that has been fed recently with nutrient solution and the soil is still somewhat damp. There are nutrient ions within the plant. This means that at some point after the initial cutting of either the whole plant or a branch, photosynthesis stops all together leaving these ions trapped inside or near the chloroplast before or during conversion into glucose/starches.

3. To get the plant to cannibalize itself. This goes hand in hand with the removal of nutrient ions. Once the ions are depleted the plant will begin to use the starches located primarily in the leafs/chloroplast. Whos to say whether the plant is converting new glucose or using the more readily available starches is better? And if you are certain which is better please explain in full detail why.

I understand the argument that plants should be fed until the last day to maximize growth/yield.
But my argument is that the starches will provide enough energy for the plant during the last 10 days of the plants life. In fact it may even be healthier for the plant to use those starches that have been getting stored up since day 1. In some cases it may even provide an explosion in bud growth depending on how fast the starches are being used up.
Having said that.. There are many instances where this exact outcome has happened during my flushes.

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I applaud you. Perhaps the best points on the pro-flushing plane, however, I have a few questions for you.

Have you ever bred for seeds? Do you flush your seeded plants before you harvest them?

Since the budding process is directly related to the seed making process ( obviously), what reasoning would I have to reduce the amount of nutrients my baby makers are receiving in an attempt to make them "better".

I have never bred. But have had plants seed on me. Even if I do end up flushing a seeded plant. I know that the bud is most likely not going to be up to the quality that I would want. So I would consider making concentrates out of it.

not sure if this answers your question or not.

GhostBud420 said:

I have never bred. But have had plants seed on me. Even if I do end up flushing a seeded plant. I know that the bud is most likely not going to be up to the quality that I would want. So I would consider making concentrates out of it.

not sure if this answers your question or not.

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I'm no expert breeder and I've only run 4 seed harvests so far but I used to flush the last 2 weeks when I first started. I only flushed one of the seed harvests so it's no where near conclusive, but the seeds were nowhere near as large or dark.

Perhaps that was just because it was my most inexperienced harvest or even that I was an inferior grower grower at that point. Perhaps it was the flush.

I was just wondering if you had a seed bearing perspective as to flushing. I don't flush anymore because of that. Thanks.

I am also no expert at seed breeding by any means.

But I would imagine that feeding a seeded plant all the way up until the last week of harvest or even 3-5 days before harvest would be more beneficial for the seeds.
Again im not an expert so I dont exactly know how or at what rate the seeds will be produced. At any rate my theory would be to feed them to make sure they're getting whats needed for viable seeds. Not feeding them nutrients the last 3-5 days shouldn't effect the seeds. Again I have never bred for seeds so I dont know 100%

No, no... You answered just fine. I'm not conclusive on the theory either. Could have been a fluke or the flush or inexperience.

In any regard, wouldn't the same theory apply to bud. Feed them til harvest for max viability?

No, I only assumed that the bud on a seeded plant may need more glucose to produce viable seeds and continue to grow somewhat (if the bud does continue to grow?..) not sure on that theory at all. If I could understand how long the seeds take to become viable from the point of pollination. At which rates they are produced. But also if there is huge variation between seeded plants. If there is huge variotions to either of these it would be hard to say that flushing would be beneficial for the seeded plants more often then not. If you were able to somewhat calculate when the seeds will be viable I think it would be much easier to lengthen the flushing time.

Not sure if this answers your last question. I think I understood it properly.

I pollinate the top buds at in between weeks 3 and 4 and harvest the bottom when it's ready. I let the seeds finish maturing as long as I can.

I can't go in depth with scientific info because I don't really have a clue, pertaining to the difference in seed making and bud making factors.

I know the buds keep swelling until the point of decay when they're dropping seeds. That may be because of the seeds get larger, I dunno. Just thought it was an interesting thought to throw in.

Yeah if it were me I would continue to feed them until the last few days at least. I hope to learn more about seed breeding this year. So to me it is a very relevant subject.

Keeping this thread alive!!! *BUMP*

If your going to preach about flushing / or not flushing, do it here. Dont spread your "ideas" like wildfire thats how "myths" are formed.
Lets finish this or stop the preaching all together.

*bUmP*

monkz said:

I can't link any scholarly articles, because most gardeners I follow aren't scholars.
It's fine that you disagree, debate and knowledge is what it's all about.
The guy I follow the most is Harley Smith, check out his videos, he's one of the best gardeners in the world (literally) imo.
Jorge Cervantes is an idiot, he does so many things which are unnecessary and downright stupid, like his video of dunking your bud in peroxide and water.
Flushing removes nutrients from your medium, not from your plant, because if that were the case then use RO water from the beginning, because your plant has been sucking up nutrients throughout its life which it has already metabolized and put to good use. When plants pull nutrients from their leaves, it's because they're not getting enough from their medium... it's just not the optimum way to keep your plants healthy and happy, and it can affect your yield and quality.
Complex sugars can't count for nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous, manganese, etc, etc.

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If you ever get a chance to talk to Harley Smith in person do it. He will talk your ear off and you can learn more about real plant science in an hour sit down with this guy than any forum bro science can.

VSFLESHnBONE1 said:

Next grow I'm ditching plastic bottles, but @ the moment I am using bottled organic nutrients/myco.
Am I able to water throughout my grow without flush?

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I haven't flushed one of my girls at all and she is on day 16 flowering looking absolutely beautiful. I still might flush once tho probably this week

GhostBud420 said:

The plants themselves need nutrients to grow/repair. The nutrients are taken in through the roots as ions in the medium's water. To my understanding these ions or nutrients, are not converted into glucose or starch until photosynthesis happens in the chloroplast. Which means that at any given time a plants stalk has nutrient ions inside.. nitrogen, potassium, phosphorous plus all the macronutrients. It was mentioned way earlier in this thread that nutrients are converted into glucose/starches mostly in the roots. But this is not true as the conversion of nutrients into glucose/starches happens in the chloroplast. Which is primarily located in the leafs. Glucose is used regularly for the growth/repair of the plant. Starches are ultimately stored in the chloroplast as granules. The plant can access these starches when needed.

So now lets talk about the goals of flushing.. the theory or myth as you call it.
The goals when I flush is to

1. Remove excess salts in the medium. Which without a doubt I think everyone can agree that its useful just for this specific reason. Lets not get into a debate about how people should feed their plants. This is a whole different subject from flushing in my opinion.

2. Remove excess nutrient ions in the plants system. (Which does include the flower.)
When you cut a plant down that has been fed recently with nutrient solution and the soil is still somewhat damp. There are nutrient ions within the plant. This means that at some point after the initial cutting of either the whole plant or a branch, photosynthesis stops all together leaving these ions trapped inside or near the chloroplast before or during conversion into glucose/starches.

3. To get the plant to cannibalize itself. This goes hand in hand with the removal of nutrient ions. Once the ions are depleted the plant will begin to use the starches located primarily in the leafs/chloroplast. Whos to say whether the plant is converting new glucose or using the more readily available starches is better? And if you are certain which is better please explain in full detail why.

I understand the argument that plants should be fed until the last day to maximize growth/yield.
But my argument is that the starches will provide enough energy for the plant during the last 10 days of the plants life. In fact it may even be healthier for the plant to use those starches that have been getting stored up since day 1. In some cases it may even provide an explosion in bud growth depending on how fast the starches are being used up.
Having said that.. There are many instances where this exact outcome has happened during my flushes.

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Exactly!

I tried to say the same thing but didnt have the right words....

I still dont "flush" for 10 to 14 days, but i do like to clean out the pipes so to speak before chopping by simply by overwateing on the last round and then wating for the pots to dry right out before harvesting...

I love these threads

I do too but flushing for "cleaner smoke" is pure hog wash. Ive read up on the subject extensively. But the threads are great. The opposing arguments as long as they are civil are groovy. For me ive settled the debate a long time ago but on the forums it never will be.

since1991 said:

I do too but flushing for "cleaner smoke" is pure hog wash. Ive read up on the subject extensively. But the threads are great. The opposing arguments as long as they are civil are groovy. For me ive settled the debate a long time ago but on the forums it never will be.

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Do you have published papers for us to read on how you "settled the debate" or just that one dude no one has ever heard of before told you so?