First Grow! First Post! PLEASE look at these PICTURES and tell me what the FUCK's up!

Kingrow1 said:

To test the pH of soil simply adjust the pH of your tapwater to 6.8 and water to runoff, collect runoff and test pH.

If you water at 6.8 and runoff is 6.4 your soil pH is 6.0.
If you water at 6.8 and runoff is 6.8 your soil pH is 6.8.
If you water at 6.8 and runoff is 6.0 your soil pH is 5.2.

So to flush you run water at 6.8 through the soil until the runoff reads 6.8. At this point you know that you have removed most of the salts left over from ferts from the soil. This is how to flush and just because you water at 6.8 and runoff is 5.8 dosent mean that adjusting the water to 7.8 and getting runoff at 6.8 is right, this is the wrong way to do it!

Now to adjust the soil pH (not flush the soil of acidic salts left over from fertilizers) you need lime or a physical buffer. Water dose not in no way change the pH of soil! Water cannot stop the peat in the soil making the soil acidic.

Hope this helps.

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This entire post is pretty much Internet bullshit. Your little runoff chart had me rolling on the floor laughing my ass off! Heres your sign. With the exception of a bit of the last paragraph this post is simply bad info.......

I've seen no bs in this thread.
Plants that young are more susceptible to burn than mature plants. I think OP has just that and they have little to worry about at this juncture. Don't feed excessive amounts of NP or K. Let the root system develop. Nice job man.

watchhowIdoit said:

This entire post is pretty much Internet bullshit. Your little runoff chart had me rolling on the floor laughing my ass off! Heres your sign. With the exception of a bit of the last paragraph this post is simply bad info.......

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instead of disrespecting the good people of this forum, try giving your own bit of information. guess that was too hard for you.

I'm not gona argue as i am newish to pH. I work with this formula and i have seen nothing but total accuracy, i overcome a lot of pH problems this way and is how a lot of good members on this site taught me,

I am open to discussion as i have also refrenced this information and found it to be common knowledge through out the plant pot growing world, even how major farms check the acidity of soil.

Please explain what is wrong with this as it has diagnosed many a sick plant and helped me add the right amount of lime to the soil. When i run my water at 6.5 for instance and runoff comes out at 6.5 my plant is growing the best it has ever done.

Please do not rubbish somthing without proof or citations as i am open to more advanced converstaion on this topic but feel i would still side with what the pros say and this knowledge is printed on every website from weed to jalepenos and even more so come and talk me through why it is wrong, i need a good discussion.

watchhowIdoit said:

This entire post is pretty much Internet bullshit. Your little runoff chart had me rolling on the floor laughing my ass off! Heres your sign. With the exception of a bit of the last paragraph this post is simply bad info.......

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Hey man please get back to me, i have heard people say this and am keen to see the other side of the pH argument, dont matter who is right or wrong, my plants are good either way but i have been saying this loads and waiting for response as its new to me too, i know i got this info and researched it first but on researching it i also came across people who disagreed with it. Its all good and we have posted on the same threads before so start thr discussion off dude, i aint bashing no one over the pH issue as i only have good things to say. Peace

i actually earlier in the day, before the really offensive guy posted, started to write that you are getting some of it wrong. But then I stopped writing, because I found I myself was lacking knowledge on the subject.

But my thoughts were that the pH scale is exponential and not linear. pH 6 is 10 times more acidic than pH 7, , 5 ten times more than 6 etc. I'm pretty poor at math so i'm not sure if this counts really for exponential, but i'm pretty sure it means that the way you described the determination of soil pH by comparing source and runoff is problematic because of this. Another reason is that runoff is notorious for misrepresenting the medium's true properties in terms of pH and ppm. They say that soil only releases some of the things that determine these properties in the water, (and holds on to others), and thus the runoff does not reflect soil pH and ppm.

I also read somewhere that when giving your soil neutral water, the pH that you get in runoff would be the soil pH.

From reliable sources (articles etc., not a 100% but better than your random forum post I guess) I have gathered that a more accurate way to test soil pH would be to sample some soil from the root zone, and mixing it one part out of 5 or 6 in water. letting it sit for a while and measuring that is said to be a reliable way of knowing soil pH and ppm. I have tried it and saw considerable differences from runoff pH.

In one case I measured 6.4 in runoff for one plant that's in soil, and then 5.5 for the same plant in sampling (after a few hours of letting it sit. at first it was actually closer to the runoff pH). However, my plant was pretty healthy with no signs of stress or deficiency, which perhaps indicates in favor of the runoff sampling which is pretty much in range for soil.

Anyway, to sum things up, despite much information and experience gathered, I am still able to firmly say that I know very little about pH measuring and handling. I wish I could say differently. Your experience however seems to be more helpful in this regard, so it's good enough for me.



I do have a question about what you say of flushing not moving pH: If this is true, then how is pH adjustment of regular feeding (and preharvest flushing) necessary or helpful at all? In such a case we would assume that your water pH doesn't really matter.

I like the question, it seems flushing dose move pH and very well, if i flush acidic soil with pH 6.7 water till i get runoff 6.7 then my plant takes off growing and you can tell you have adjusted the soils pH but a week or two later the pH has dropped and the plant seems to be having problems again. Acidic soil will always turn the good work of the flush back to the bad pH again.

Sorry i only pm you because i thought you knew, seems like a lot of us are ponedering the finer aspect of pH.

All i cam say is this method totally works for me but to stop soil becoming acidic you need a buffer like lime. I am working through a few soil mixes that involve less peat and more perlite, the idea being that more wet and dry cycles will activate the lime more and more perlite will dilute the acidic soil since it is pH neutral thus giving me less of a pH problem. I came across this in another thread where people seemed to be having less pH problems with more perlite and was very intrigued, i personally hate and wont go near perlit but am finding either i do or my soils pH suffers.

With reguard to the pH method i and i must say a lot of others use to measure soil pH, i really find it gives me the results i need, even if it works but i have it wrong i find that it is working reguardless. I have upped my lime and added 30 pecent perlite and will have results in like three weeks.

I did see that for mega bucks you can buy equipment to accuratly tell you the soil pH but your talking sophisticated exspensive lab equipment. We need some real pro pro grower to clear up the pH issue once and for all so we can pass on the info. This is the best i have but when i researched it i found that a lot of commercial and other plant types use this method, yer the pH numbers are a bit of due to as you say the logorythmic side of pH where by 1 point pH shift is ten times the Ph but it seems sound.

How is the runoff that important any way when the end goal is still to have the water going into your pot come out at the same pH as the runoff coming out and within the 6.4 to 6.8 scale which is best for marijuana.

There seem to be a lot of variables but only one result you need to achieve which is good pH of the soil. We need a pro to chime in, one with like 50,000 posts or somthing!

Actually stop the bus man, i did do some experimenting when i first learnt this so try this for yourself and this dude can try and explain this too-

I watered at 6.8 and got runoff at 6 so i lowered my water in to 6.0 and then got runoff at 5.7 so i lowered my water to 5.5 and runoff finally came out at 5.5 so yes i think my way has a lot of truth to it and is worth following unless sumone can give me a better idea.

If i put water into my plant as above at 5.5 and the runoff comes out at 5.5 it means the soil has had no effect on it cause the soils pH is 5.5, this is true for pH and soil mediums as the water is thusly affected by the soil pH.

I think i still like my way and see that it may not be perfect but it is the most effective way of reading pH, certainly you cant argue with the results above.

Kingrow1 said:

Actually stop the bus man, i did do some experimenting when i first learnt this so try this for yourself and this dude can try and explain this too-

I watered at 6.8 and got runoff at 6 so i lowered my water in to 6.0 and then got runoff at 5.7 so i lowered my water to 5.5 and runoff finally came out at 5.5 so yes i think my way has a lot of truth to it and is worth following unless sumone can give me a better idea.

If i put water into my plant as above at 5.5 and the runoff comes out at 5.5 it means the soil has had no effect on it cause the soils pH is 5.5, this is true for pH and soil mediums as the water is thusly affected by the soil pH.

I think i still like my way and see that it may not be perfect but it is the most effective way of reading pH, certainly you cant argue with the results above.

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well, only one down side of it is that it still doesn't mean that 5.5 is the real pH of the soil. still argues well for the log argument yep.

and what also argues well is that your plants are healthy.

btw, i think it's much easier to just use coco. why don't you?

I have come close to using coco believe me, (sorry to swear) but the stupid f@cking d!ckhead soil companies announced they have so much peat it is unbelievable and at at a time when a lot of wetland bogs are becoming protected status! So what do they do to take the P!SS!!! they up the my soil peat content to 60percent from 50 percent last year. In europe most soil companies gota list the ingredients on the back and the pH. 60 percent peat is a high amount of peat to grow in yer!?

My soil was 40 percent peat a few years ago when i decided to start using it. My other choice would be miracle grow. Shops also use to sell coco bricks but stopped due to some political or ethical reason or what not! They even stopped selling lime for a few years because they said it was caustic and could burn people in the shop! Ridiculous isn't it!

I looked at coco to mix with my soil but there was some peat free soil available at my local garden centre and have gone back to using dreaded perlite again. I have adjusted a lot of things and got half results, i am just hoping that these last few things will give me the other half of the results i need then it is dialled in and off i go.

This year has been a hard year for me and my sh!t soil, but on a good not i am getting it under control! WOHOOOO!

Makes me wana call my soil company and say have you 'EVER EVER HEARD OF A THING CALLE LIME! AND WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF PRODUCING SOIL AT PH6.3 AND SHOWING IT GROWING PLANTS THAT DONT LIKE PH6.3.

Honestly i have worked throught a lot of problems recently and am just about there now. Ph is a big issue but i have decided to work through it with the soil i got, just means i got to use soil mixes as it no longer works out of the bag.

Also they say it has ten percent perlite, all i find when i seive it are little stones and bugger all perlite, what a rip! Perlite went exspensive but i have found a place that seels a bag the same size as my bags of soil for the same price as a bag of soil so i can justify it again although i cant justify its health problems. Oh well sorry to rant, wish i had been coco from the start somedays or even hydro!

Yes the pH rsults do suggest that it works good the way i am doing it but as always i keep an open mind. In three weeks we shall see if i got things perfect again!

I see that a acceptable soil mix should contain roughly 25 percent peat and no more, what the hell is going on at the westland soil hq who produce my soil fro the company garden health ill never know, prehaps there all high or somthing!

Fafards C1-P is 80%peat and 20%perlite. Peat is not the acidic demon yoou are making it out to be, especially in our 3 and 4 month grows. Maybe a houseplant that has been in the same pot of peat may have issues after a year or so. And runoff pH is by no means a way to measure a soils pH. You have to test the soil itself. And to post a chart and stating it will tell your mediums pH is BAD INFO.
Its funny most of the folks having continuous issues are always chasing runoff pH, deficiency has to be fromm lockout, right? Wrong, every think maybe you are just under feeding?

asaph said:

instead of disrespecting the good people of this forum, try giving your own bit of information. guess that was too hard for you.

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And you first post in this thread stated pH lockout causing a magnesium deficiency.

Definition of pH, pOH, "p", sample calculations
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]General [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The acid potential of aqueous solutions is measured in terms of the pH scale. The symbol "p" means take the negative logarithm of whatever follows in the formula. for pH, pOH, p[anything] . The pH scale is intended to be a convenience. Tremendous swings in hydrogen ion (hydronium ion) concentration occur in water when acids or bases are mixed with water. These changes can be as big as 1 x 1014, This means concentrations can change by multiples as big as one hundred trillion, 100,000,000,000,000. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The pH scale is a logarithmic scale. Every multiple of ten in H1+ concentration equals one unit on the logarithm scale. Physically the pH is intended to tell what the acid "potential" is for a solution. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In a sense the system is INVERTED so a low pH value indicates a great acid potential while a high pH indicates a low acid potential. ( Sad but true this is upside down and counter intuitive.) The pH values range from negative values to number above 14. Commonly the scale is often misrepresented as ranging from 0 to 14. We will see that negative values are possible. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Definition of pH, pOH, pKw, pKa, pKb [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The p" factor" is defined as the log of the whatever quantity that follows the symbol. The "p" is an operator. It communicates the instruction to calculate the negative log of any quantity that follows the symbol. The definition of pH in equation form is [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = -log[H1+] where [H1+] means the molar concentration of hydronium ions, M = moles / liter[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This allows the definition of the following series of quantities.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pOH = -log[OH-][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the negative log of the hydroxide ion molarity[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pKw = -log Kw[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the negative log of the water ion product , Kw[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pKa = -log Ka [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the negative log of the acid dissociation constant, Ka[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pKb = -log Kb [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]the negative log of the base dissociation constant, Kb[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The relationship pH + pOH = 14 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In a water solution the ion product for water is: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][H+] [OH-] = Kw = 1 X 10-14 [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Take the -log of both sides of the equation[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- log [H+] +(- log [OH- ]) = - log [1 X 10-14 ][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH + pOH = 14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Calculations of pH [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For strong acids like HCl the molar concentrations are essentially the hydronium ion concentration. These strong acids can produce solutions where the pH can be equal to or less than 1, the pH value would have a value from 0-14. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Example: Determination of pH from [H3O+] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the pH of a solution whose [H3O+] = 1 X 10-4 M [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = -log[H3O+][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - log[1 X 10-4] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - [ log 1 + log 10-4 ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Note: When you multiply numbers you always ADD their log forms [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]log 1 is always zero [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]log 10x = x [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so log 10-4 = -4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - [ log 1 + log 10-4 ] = - [ 0 + (-4) ] = - [-4 ] = +4[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Example: Determination of pH from [H3O+] when coefficient is other than "1"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What is the pH of a solution whose [H3O+] = 2.5 X 10 -5 M[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = -log[H3O+][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - log[2.5 X 10 -5] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - [ log 2.5 + log 10-5 ] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Note: When you multiply numbers you always ADD their log forms [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]log 10x = x [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so log 10-5 = -5[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]log 2.5 can be determined using a calculator having the log function key: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Enter the number in this case 2.5 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]depress the log key [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Read the display which should be .3979 for this problem[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = - [.3979 - 5] = 4.6021 or +4.602[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Alternately if you can enter a number in scientific notation into your calculator key in 2.5 X 10 -5[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]depress the log key [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Read the display which should be -4.602 for this problem[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Multiply by -1 to get + 4.602 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Example: Determination of pH from [OH1- ] using defintion pOH and equation pH + pOH = 14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Calculate the pH of a solution that has a [OH1-] = 1 X 10-5 M [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Determine pOH = -log[OH1- ] = -log [1 X 10-5 ] = 5[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Use the relationship pH + pOH = 14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH + 5 = 14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]pH = 14 -5 = 9[/FONT]

hey, i can also quote math and chemistry articles which by no means explain or convince in what i'm saying.

sorry, kingrow is simply more convincing.

i've seen very little cases where deficiency is caused by underfeeding.

watchhowIdoit said:

And you first post in this thread stated pH lockout causing a magnesium deficiency.

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yeah well, that was a speculation. still don't know if it was true, since the guy never posted anything about his pH. it's more likely that MG caused his problems. but this debate isn't about the guy's problems.

asaph said:

hey, i can also quote math and chemistry articles which by no means explain or convince in what i'm saying.

sorry, kingrow is simply more convincing.

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My point exactly. You all would rather follow internet lore rather than botanical and physical facts. Facts are boring, not exciting enough, may actually take some thought. On the otherhand cool words and phrases gets your attention, so it has too be right and thats what you follow all the way to the plant problems thread.

The internet is full of sites related to gardening, not just MJ growing sites. Go hang around some of those for awhile. Listen to gardeners that like myself have been growing for decades. See how many of them bring up runoff pH, lockout/lockup. For some reason its has solidified itself in the cannabis culture for no reason other than internet bs lore that purpetuates itself with every misleading post...........

Its almost verbatum with many of the posts concerning pH/runoff/Miracle Grow ect....just coming from alot of different folks.

So wtf does any of this have to do with the pics the op posted in the first post?! 4 out of 5 plants are looking great, one is showing some ph 'twist, all of them are dark green and lush looking. Why the fuck would I start pulling out ph charts that most people would need a degree for in order to understand them?! Just water correctly, start feeding them when they go lighter and cut back when they get rather dark. This is not brain surgery, no disrespect, but some of you make this way to complicated.

watchhowIdoit said:

My point exactly. You all would rather follow internet lore rather than botanical and physical facts. Facts are boring, not exciting enough, may actually take some thought. On the otherhand cool words and phrases gets your attention, so it has too be right and thats what you follow all the way to the plant problems thread.

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facts are really cool, but they have to be relevant. i.e - concerning the matter discussed.