MRpoodle
Member
Yes. Thank you.
DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes
- Thread starter Heisenberg
- Start date
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Tnks MM
Well the tea made with the mycogrow product seems to be working at least as well as the ZHO+aquashield. I used it on a new clone that was a bit slower than the others in root development and just a few days later it has a very nice root ball. I am now using this in my tea permanently. Since this product is only $6 and replaces two others, the tea is now cheaper than ever to make. The most expensive part with each batch is buying the filtered water.
My personal numbers:
2 gallon water - $2
Mycogrow - $6/20 = .30c
Ancient Forest - $14/100 = .14c
So each batch costs about $2.44 and inoculates 32 gallons of water. Obviously if you are in a situation to provide your own water the price goes down to pennies. How much would you have paid for a sure-fire way to beat the slime when you were at it's mercy?
NaturesMed
Active Member
Heisenberg, thank you very much for taking the time to share your knowledge!
I am an experienced DWC grower and have fought off root problems for years using the basics of temp, light, and a little H2o2 when needed, until this summer I was hit hard and lost multiple crops to root based problems. I believe an unusually hot summer tainted my small town water supply with brown algae. People seem to use the term "brown algae" loosely, but I think I have true brown algae or diatoms, which I believe is different than these common dark brown to black or clear thick slimy buildups I see on these threads which i have also had in the past.
What I have now starts as a light color brown dusty coating in the res which is easily disturbed or wiped off. It can grow and build up very quickly. When a coated container drys, it actually wipes off easily as a brown powder.
It definitely causes PH rise, extremely fast when its bad.
Temp does not seem to affect it as it still grows at 68-69 degrees
Extra oxygen actually seems to help it, one time H2o2 drastically accelerated its progression
Reducing nutrient strength seems to help a little
As it gets worse, the dusty brown starts to change into a light goupy(but not really slimy) film that collects on the side of the DWC bucket and on the net cup, at the water level, specifically around where the air bubbles come to the surface. Sorry goupy but not slimy is not a great explanation, its almost a paste. And the paste seems to be a progression of the powdery coating. I definitely think it is Diatoms.
When this paste starts getting onto the roots, the plants suffer quickly! I believe it is allowing pythium to go crazy and the plants wilt and die sometimes within 24 hours. However even a plant that has died from it has very little buildup on the roots, maybe a light coating of tan/brown stuff.
My ultimate question is will the Bene Tea remedy my specific problem?
I will likely start it anyway, but I would love to hear any reassurance on my specific issue.
Does my description sound familiar to you Heisenberg? or to any others?
Thanks in advance!
NMed
I am an experienced DWC grower and have fought off root problems for years using the basics of temp, light, and a little H2o2 when needed, until this summer I was hit hard and lost multiple crops to root based problems. I believe an unusually hot summer tainted my small town water supply with brown algae. People seem to use the term "brown algae" loosely, but I think I have true brown algae or diatoms, which I believe is different than these common dark brown to black or clear thick slimy buildups I see on these threads which i have also had in the past.
What I have now starts as a light color brown dusty coating in the res which is easily disturbed or wiped off. It can grow and build up very quickly. When a coated container drys, it actually wipes off easily as a brown powder.
It definitely causes PH rise, extremely fast when its bad.
Temp does not seem to affect it as it still grows at 68-69 degrees
Extra oxygen actually seems to help it, one time H2o2 drastically accelerated its progression
Reducing nutrient strength seems to help a little
As it gets worse, the dusty brown starts to change into a light goupy(but not really slimy) film that collects on the side of the DWC bucket and on the net cup, at the water level, specifically around where the air bubbles come to the surface. Sorry goupy but not slimy is not a great explanation, its almost a paste. And the paste seems to be a progression of the powdery coating. I definitely think it is Diatoms.
When this paste starts getting onto the roots, the plants suffer quickly! I believe it is allowing pythium to go crazy and the plants wilt and die sometimes within 24 hours. However even a plant that has died from it has very little buildup on the roots, maybe a light coating of tan/brown stuff.
My ultimate question is will the Bene Tea remedy my specific problem?
I will likely start it anyway, but I would love to hear any reassurance on my specific issue.
Does my description sound familiar to you Heisenberg? or to any others?
Thanks in advance!
NMed
NaturesMed
Active Member
Two last notes
I have talked to a couple people who say they control this problem with constant use of chlorine/bleach, but I really don't like that concept.
I have since moved from the small town water supply, so I don't think my current water source is tainted and adding more, but It comes back after mild sterilization attempts without the use of tea
I have talked to a couple people who say they control this problem with constant use of chlorine/bleach, but I really don't like that concept.
I have since moved from the small town water supply, so I don't think my current water source is tainted and adding more, but It comes back after mild sterilization attempts without the use of tea
so after much skepticism the bb tea works. and it works well.
i had one particular problem that i hope can be explained. i've looked around at some other threads on here and a few other people seem to have this happen to them. after the initial inoculation of the roots a dark brown slime seems to come back. it seems to come about in a manner consistent with the white slime (high ph and rapid growth). the big difference is that the new root growth is not stunted. eventually the brown stuff goes away and the roots just EXPLODE. it took me about 36 hours turn around from inoculation to significant root growth. my only thought on this darker slime is that the white slime takes over the roots but is immediately being attacked by the bb tea. and after 36 hours or so the bb tea is bad ass and whoops the shit out the bad stuff. i don't know i high and tired.
also i used the wiggle worm or some shit ewc. its not as good as AF EWC. but all my store has is AF humus. will this work as just as well as AF EWC? plus the bag of humus comes in a much more manageable size.
also attached are pictures i've found elsewhere of what i'm talking about. the first pic is of the initial white slime, and the second is the crazy dark down chocolate fondue slime.
i had one particular problem that i hope can be explained. i've looked around at some other threads on here and a few other people seem to have this happen to them. after the initial inoculation of the roots a dark brown slime seems to come back. it seems to come about in a manner consistent with the white slime (high ph and rapid growth). the big difference is that the new root growth is not stunted. eventually the brown stuff goes away and the roots just EXPLODE. it took me about 36 hours turn around from inoculation to significant root growth. my only thought on this darker slime is that the white slime takes over the roots but is immediately being attacked by the bb tea. and after 36 hours or so the bb tea is bad ass and whoops the shit out the bad stuff. i don't know i high and tired.
also i used the wiggle worm or some shit ewc. its not as good as AF EWC. but all my store has is AF humus. will this work as just as well as AF EWC? plus the bag of humus comes in a much more manageable size.
also attached are pictures i've found elsewhere of what i'm talking about. the first pic is of the initial white slime, and the second is the crazy dark down chocolate fondue slime.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
That sounds exactly like brown diatoms. Even if a diatom dies it's shell is left behind and looks like a sort of powder that collects on everything. When I was first learning to fight the slime I talked to a guy who had a problem with diatoms. His claim was it comes from RO water because RO water has no organisms in it to eat the diatoms. Unfortunately since this was a different problem than the slime, and because I wasn't using RO water, and because all the advice I read at the time said to sterilize, I didn't pay attention to the tip about microbes. Diatoms are also a common problem I read about in aquarium forums while researching the slime.
Diatoms are not considered a huge problem in aquarium communities because it fixes itself after a while. Unfortunately for growers, it can take 8 months or more for the cycle to complete, so in our situation we can't just wait for it to fix itself. Diatoms need light to make food, but they prefer very dim light, the kind we get from light leaks. The diatoms may or may not be in the tap water, however tap water high in silicates can trigger them, as can solutions high in phosphates. The silica feeds them while the phosphorous discourages normal algae, fungi and bacteria, so phosphates help remove competition.
So I can't promise the tea will work for this problem, but we do know now that root disease occurs when one particular microbe is allowed to multiply out of control. It seems to reason that the tea will provide a diversity in the microlife and prevent the diatoms from taking over. Indeed, it does appear that some microbes, particularly nematodes and protozoa, like the diatoms for food. We probably don't have many nematodes in our tea, but we have loads and loads of protozoa. I hope you try the tea as it's easy to make and worth a shot. Please let us know your results.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
Very glad you are getting good results. Another system beats the slime!
Like I said in a previous post, I sometimes get brown/black patches in my root balls. It normally occurs near the water level and stays localized. New roots grow around and through the mass but it doesn't spread to them, or seem to hinder them in any way. Over time the root ball grows and the brown patch is reduced to a small spot and may fade, but its always noticeable. In a treated tank that had heavy slime the brown gunk seems to be worse. I do not know what this is. Speculation is, it could be a build up from humic acid, or some other byproduct of the microbes. Your idea that it's bad slime being attacked by good microbes could very well be what's going on.
I apologize for referring to the ancient forest as EWC. A couple people have been confused by this. Ancient forest is a soil amendment that contains EWC as well as forest humus. The bag you got is exactly what you need. Don't be surprised when you find live earthworms crawling through it.
NaturesMed
Active Member
Thanks Heisenberg,
I do not use RO water, I use pretty clean tap water through a tall boy sediment and chlorine filter, so i'm not sure how that plays into the theory...
Keep your fingers crossed for me, I am starting a brew today.
Couple questions:
1- Do you think in my case it would be important to run some kind of sterilizing agent through the system and plants before innoculating? I can't really take all the plants out of the buckets, but should I run a sterilizing solution for a quick change period? I believe you have mentioned using Physan 20, do you have directions for using it with the plants? They are pretty young at this point.
2- I am pretty impatient, do you think is there any noticeable benefit to adding some Zho and Aquashield direct to the res today while I start brewing?
3- As far as the water used to brew, I need a little more than I can efficiently buy from the store. With the chlorine and sediment filter, my water comes out around 90 ppm (700 conv). Do you think that should work to brew. It seems like the chlorine is pretty low even before the filter...
You mentioned nematodes, the only beneficial nematodes I have heard of at my grow shop are the kind that infect fungus gnat larvae, which I am guessing do not also eat diatoms...
I will definitely update. Thanks again for your knowledge, and hopefully we can soon conclude that one more devastating problem can be easily cured with this delicious tea!
Nmed
I do not use RO water, I use pretty clean tap water through a tall boy sediment and chlorine filter, so i'm not sure how that plays into the theory...
Keep your fingers crossed for me, I am starting a brew today.
Couple questions:
1- Do you think in my case it would be important to run some kind of sterilizing agent through the system and plants before innoculating? I can't really take all the plants out of the buckets, but should I run a sterilizing solution for a quick change period? I believe you have mentioned using Physan 20, do you have directions for using it with the plants? They are pretty young at this point.
2- I am pretty impatient, do you think is there any noticeable benefit to adding some Zho and Aquashield direct to the res today while I start brewing?
3- As far as the water used to brew, I need a little more than I can efficiently buy from the store. With the chlorine and sediment filter, my water comes out around 90 ppm (700 conv). Do you think that should work to brew. It seems like the chlorine is pretty low even before the filter...
You mentioned nematodes, the only beneficial nematodes I have heard of at my grow shop are the kind that infect fungus gnat larvae, which I am guessing do not also eat diatoms...
I will definitely update. Thanks again for your knowledge, and hopefully we can soon conclude that one more devastating problem can be easily cured with this delicious tea!
Nmed
supaleeb
Active Member
Humic acid buildup would make a lot of sense, actually. I frequently see something similiar when using liquid karma in my rez.
Using another EWC should be fine, though, right? I just picked up some yesterday, since they didn't carry Ancient Forest. I'm not sure if I'll be able to find something that contains forest humus at my shop.
Anyway, the tea made with my friend's composted soil with guano/ewc + hydromyco + subculture-B + roots excellurator seems to be working well. The rez seems to stay fairly clean, although I don't give it much time to get dirty (I like to change it weekly). My next batch, which I'll probably start sometime early this next week, will have the "tea bag" filled with 50% of the soil and 50% pure EWC (until I run out of the soil, that is, which I likely will after this next batch).
dangledo
Well-Known Member
Is this tea safe on seedlings? When can I start using this tea? Ive got a s.s. ak seed germinating in a paper towel. Going to stick as soon as I see the tap root. Any pointers from anyone using Sure to grow media?
also, when brewing said tea, should it be light proof? as i need to brew in my veg room so it can stay in the temp range, gets to cold outside of the room. Thanks again!!
also, when brewing said tea, should it be light proof? as i need to brew in my veg room so it can stay in the temp range, gets to cold outside of the room. Thanks again!!
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
The reason there is only a few types of beneficial nematode sold is because most are too difficult to mass produce, difficult to ship, and have too narrow a target range to be economical. It's not necessarily that they aren't beneficial. It's true the type you buy for insect control probably will not care to eat diatoms, though some are omnivores. Some nematodes are undoubtedly in the ancient forest and get dislodged into the tea, but they do not multiply in the tea and will eventually probably be eaten by other microbes, such as parasitic fungi.
I wouldn't bother with sterilizing beyond what you've already done. Just use h202 and do one last cleaning. In most cases we wouldn't bother adding anything to the res before the tea was ready, because we make a new res just before we add it. Otherwise the slime gets a headstart. You might not have that problem with diatoms, so adding some zho to the water right a away could be a good idea. Depends on what you think from observing it. Chlorinated water that has been aged is fine to use. I would try the tea by itself first, and if you then feel you need to pre-sterilize I would get a small UV unit. I really don't have experience with diatoms so this is all speculation.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
You can use it on the media the seedlings go in from the start. The tea will help protect seedlings from damping off. The brew does not need to be light proof.Is this tea safe on seedlings? When can I start using this tea? Ive got a s.s. ak seed germinating in a paper towel. Going to stick as soon as I see the tap root. Any pointers from anyone using Sure to grow media?
also, when brewing said tea, should it be light proof? as i have need to brew in my veg room so it can stay in the temp range, gets to cold outside of the rooms. Thanks again!!
If you want to learn more about the microbe life present in the tea, this slideshow is a great introduction. This site gets a little more into it, and if you want to learn even more details, this site has links to dozens of articles pertaining to compost tea.
jestermite
Well-Known Member
Hey Heis - What happens if you go too long without a res change? I have individual tubs that hold about 3 1/2 gallons each and support big plants so I add water and nutes often. I have been planning to change only once a month - end of veg, at four weeks into flower and then again at 8 for the flush. I keep the same biomass sponge? (can't remember name - for aqaurims) with the plants for they're whole life and add tea every other day. At six weeks into flower now they appear fine and healthy... what are the effects of not changing?
Also I have started my first hydro houseplant in a glass vase. I'm really curious why more people don't do this - I've searched a few times and have found next to nothing on it. I think it's beautiful to have a plant displayed like that but am thinking they're must be some looming problem I don't know about or else more people would do it. Actually I started two and decided to run bennies in one and H202 in the other to see which stayed the cleanest and clearest the longest. I murdered the second plant in like four days with too much H202. lol. I have a clear winner.
I'm really curious about the limits of what the bennies can do. I plan to let my res temps run high in summer and am really curious to see what happens in the clear vase. Maybe clear reservoirs in the future? That'd be pretty cool. And seeing how long I can go without changing the res..
Also I have been letting my tea bubble with a little single pump and stone and just leaving it in the bucket to pull out of or add water as needed. Is this a bad idea? Thought I might feed it with molasses every now and then. Read earlier that I probably need to pull the EWC sock. I definately have the brown hairy stuff growing in my tea res and on the stone but have taken that as encouraging that I'm breeding the good stuff. I have been afraid too that the tea loses something when you fridge it and it's really convenient to have live, 'hot' as I think of it tea right next to the plants.
Thx for the cool the thread and all the time answering questions. Diggin the other forum too.
Also I have started my first hydro houseplant in a glass vase. I'm really curious why more people don't do this - I've searched a few times and have found next to nothing on it. I think it's beautiful to have a plant displayed like that but am thinking they're must be some looming problem I don't know about or else more people would do it. Actually I started two and decided to run bennies in one and H202 in the other to see which stayed the cleanest and clearest the longest. I murdered the second plant in like four days with too much H202. lol. I have a clear winner.
I'm really curious about the limits of what the bennies can do. I plan to let my res temps run high in summer and am really curious to see what happens in the clear vase. Maybe clear reservoirs in the future? That'd be pretty cool. And seeing how long I can go without changing the res..
Also I have been letting my tea bubble with a little single pump and stone and just leaving it in the bucket to pull out of or add water as needed. Is this a bad idea? Thought I might feed it with molasses every now and then. Read earlier that I probably need to pull the EWC sock. I definately have the brown hairy stuff growing in my tea res and on the stone but have taken that as encouraging that I'm breeding the good stuff. I have been afraid too that the tea loses something when you fridge it and it's really convenient to have live, 'hot' as I think of it tea right next to the plants.
Thx for the cool the thread and all the time answering questions. Diggin the other forum too.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is any disadvantage to never or rarely changing the res water as far as microbes are concerned. I personally have been going longer between changes lately, but never more than 2 weeks. Plants can eat different nutrients at different times, which can lead to too much of one element and not enough of others. Often times too much of one chemical can lock out others. Don't forget your plants use their roots to dump stuff into the water too. So changing the res ensures that we have a proper balance. Still, many growers never change the water once flowering starts and do just fine, and each has their own preference for nute 'addback'.
Lots of accomplished growers say cannabis roots prefer darkness, but I have never heard any of them explain why. When people stress darkness it is always in the context of preventing algae. Maybe someone will come along and enlighten us. I do recall one grow with someone using a huge res completely uncovered while treating with great white. If I remember right he had no algae problems for a long time but then he got slimed because he sprayed for mites and let it drip into the res, killing his bennies. So it could be that a clear res will keep some bad microbes primed and ready to take over if they get a foot hold.
One thing I see over and over again when reading about compost teas is the advice that fresh tea is the best tea, and as time goes by you will lose much of the diversity. Diversity is a major factor in preventing disease. When we cool the tea in the fridge we slow the processes down to near halt which helps preserve the diversity. So for our purposes, cooled tea used on day 5 is almost certainly better than tea that has been bubbled for 5 days. Tea that is bubbled instead of cooled is probably fine to use as long as there is no bad odor, but each day it will become less and less effective.
Lots of accomplished growers say cannabis roots prefer darkness, but I have never heard any of them explain why. When people stress darkness it is always in the context of preventing algae. Maybe someone will come along and enlighten us. I do recall one grow with someone using a huge res completely uncovered while treating with great white. If I remember right he had no algae problems for a long time but then he got slimed because he sprayed for mites and let it drip into the res, killing his bennies. So it could be that a clear res will keep some bad microbes primed and ready to take over if they get a foot hold.
One thing I see over and over again when reading about compost teas is the advice that fresh tea is the best tea, and as time goes by you will lose much of the diversity. Diversity is a major factor in preventing disease. When we cool the tea in the fridge we slow the processes down to near halt which helps preserve the diversity. So for our purposes, cooled tea used on day 5 is almost certainly better than tea that has been bubbled for 5 days. Tea that is bubbled instead of cooled is probably fine to use as long as there is no bad odor, but each day it will become less and less effective.
NaturesMed
Active Member
Couple more quick questions Heisenberg,
How many times, if at all, can I reuse the stalking stuffed with the AF humus? I like the idea of mixing a fresh batch of water, zho and aquashield for each brew but thought the humus might be reusable a few times. Also I noticed you recently mentioned using mycogrow, but I didn't see a complete recipe. How much do you use? And it looks like it is in place of both the Zho and shield?
Was also wondering if I should expect any PH flux with the bene tea? I can usually judge how the diatoms are progressing by how fast the PH goes up. Should I expect any flux as a positive sign that the good ones are thriving?
Thanks again Heis,
Nmed
How many times, if at all, can I reuse the stalking stuffed with the AF humus? I like the idea of mixing a fresh batch of water, zho and aquashield for each brew but thought the humus might be reusable a few times. Also I noticed you recently mentioned using mycogrow, but I didn't see a complete recipe. How much do you use? And it looks like it is in place of both the Zho and shield?
Was also wondering if I should expect any PH flux with the bene tea? I can usually judge how the diatoms are progressing by how fast the PH goes up. Should I expect any flux as a positive sign that the good ones are thriving?
Thanks again Heis,
Nmed
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
As far as I know, no one has ever reused the compost after one batch. I assume much microlife is still present, but to ensure the greatest diversity you should always start fresh. The mycogrow powder has all the microbe strains zho+aquashield has and many more. It did not come with any measuring scoop, so I just poured a little in. I suppose it was probably equal to the small end on the ZHO scoop. I am very happy with the product and don't plan on using AS or ZHO any more.
If you are not adding organic ferts to the res, then the bennies should have a negligible effect on the PH. If you knock some roots loose when changing water or something it's possible the PH might be effected slightly for a short time as they decay, but I have not noticed this in my grows. My PH stays pretty stable and the flux seems to be in tune with the plant growth.
Homebrewer has a ongoing journal where he is testing great white, you guys might wanna follow along. He also confirms that bennies do not effect the PH.
jestermite
Well-Known Member
Aww RIGHT ON Heis. Thanks for the time and knowledge.
Heisenberg
Well-Known Member
It looks like a different division of the same company that makes great white, plant success. It's sold though fungi.com.