DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Penyajo said:
Hey Heisenberg. Great thread you got here and I can see that you have already helped out many. I have a quick question for you. I have a compost barrel that I received as a gift. I have never used the thing and am planning on using it here shortly. I have been short on cash the last few months and fall a few dollars short of getting the I ingredients to make your tea. I was wondering if I can make any of the ingredients in my compost barrel. If so what can I male and how do I make it. Thanks again for contributing a great thread to the RIU community. STAY HIGH!!!
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Homemade compost can be a great source of beneficial microbes if done correctly. As for the best way to do it, I would have to direct you to the organic section of the forums. I have no experience making compost myself. Once you do have compost, get some ZHO powder to go with it to add the proper fungi.

If I didn't have much money I would just make the tea with earthworm castings. You can pick up a bag for a couple bucks and the molasses is about the same. If you don't currently have a slime problem, then I would wait until I could afford the proper ingredients.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Nothing organic in dwc? Botanicare nutes are organic based. Plus I love liquid karma. And that stuff is uber organic. I've also found that BC liquid compost to really enhance smell and flavor. What is the worry? Wild ph swings? Slime? Perhaps DWC is not for me..."mr hydro-organic"
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Correct, DWC is not well suited for full-on organic hydro. Your best bet is to wait until you have a robust root system with well established colonies, and even then you are likely to get a biofilm. Bio buckets can be a very time consuming and involved project. The tea outlined here is a blunt force solution to the slime problem. A tea made for organic hydro probably requires a more meticulous approach to find the correct balance of microbes and the correct schedule for inoculations. We add the tea every three days because we are anticipating the microbes will starve and need replaced. In this way we maintain a pretty steady diversity. Because bio buckets are an endless tea brew, there is always the chance that a certain type of microbe can eventually outgrow the others. If you use organic nutes, you are basically making a tea right there in the bucket, and your roots are sitting in a compost soup, so even without the threat of brown slime algae you still are likely to get a thick biofilm. You can get away with some organic additives later in bud, but using total organic nutes in a DWC often results in disaster. If I wanted to do organic hydro, I would go with ebb and flow or drip to waste. The slime/biofilm has a hard time thriving on roots that spend most of their time exposed to air.
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
fallinprince said:
Honestly i wouldnt recommend organic in anything but soil coco or rockwool(ebb n flow) You wont notice a difference in bud from organic to chemical so why not switch?

Ps its time for guess what sex by fallinprince :-PView attachment 1739418View attachment 1739419View attachment 1739420 still trying to score a better camera but in the mean time
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Still early, but that sure looks like a lady to me. In pic 3 you can see that starting of little white hairs forming, as opposed to the banana/claw/nuts (sounds like a cereal) male parts. I'm sure others will chime in to verify, but you'll know for sure in another few days of 12/12...
 
mr.bond

mr.bond

Well-Known Member
tyler.durden said:
Still early, but that sure looks like a lady to me. In pic 3 you can see that starting of little white hairs forming, as opposed to the banana/claw/nuts (sounds like a cereal) male parts. I'm sure others will chime in to verify, but you'll know for sure in another few days of 12/12...
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Yeah it looks female to me as well... but still kinda hard to tell by the pics. A few more days and it'll be easy to tell... cheers

mr. bond
 
S

SaneLawsMake4SaneSociety

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
A plant will grow fastest when you give it ideal growing conditions. This involves giving it exactly what it wants to eat, exactly when it wants it, and in the correct amounts. That is easiest to accomplish in hydro, perhaps easiest in a DWC. We take out unnecessary factors and enhance what's left.

Organics can be done in a DWC, however organic material itself becomes unnecessary in this setup. Organic material can not be absorbed by plants roots until it has been broken down and processed by beneficial microbes. Once the microbes are finished with the organics, it becomes chemical fertilizer. So, when you are depending on microbes to supply your nute chemistry, it becomes much harder to control. To simplify things and to give us the best control we just use synthetic chemical nutes to begin with.

If your company is using pharmaceutical grade chemicals then your bud will end up being just as safe and as clean as organic bud.

It is very useful to use bennies in soil, but in hydro all the little benefits you get from them are negligible. When it comes to root disease, bennies are a magic bullet.
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This part contains the only thing you have said that I disagree with (that I know of). It is the part "If your company is using pharmaceutical grade chemicals then your bud will end up being just as safe and as clean as organic bud". There is an inherent assumption in there that we (man) or the company know everything that there is to know about what the plants need and what is going on not only in the plants in nature, but also what is going on inside plants grown in a non organic manner as well. We don't, though.

Nature has had literally billions of years to work out all of it's/her/our processes, and we, being part of Nature, have had millions of years of exposure to those processes to get acclimated to them. Based on that, it is safe to say that the synthetic chemicals used in any process that interfaces with anything natural are, generally speaking, more likely to have unforeseen and unintended consequences.

The unforeseen and unintended consequences are even more likely than the above would imply, though, because of the "artificial" manipulation of the processes of research, development, safety testing, and marketing for the synthetic chemicals. IMO, the two biggest factors in the "artificial" manipulation I are human oversight (aka negligence, aka short sightedness, aka etc, etc,) and the tendency of companies to put the profit motive above other considerations.

Oh yeah, btw, that show (Xavier) is WEIRD, man! I watched the first 3 episodes. I loved the gang one. Funny shit.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
SaneLawsMake4SaneSociety said:
This part contains the only thing you have said that I disagree with (that I know of). It is the part "If your company is using pharmaceutical grade chemicals then your bud will end up being just as safe and as clean as organic bud". There is an inherent assumption in there that we (man) or the company know everything that there is to know about what the plants need and what is going on not only in the plants in nature, but also what is going on inside plants grown in a non organic manner as well. We don't, though.

Nature has had literally billions of years to work out all of it's/her/our processes, and we, being part of Nature, have had millions of years of exposure to those processes to get acclimated to them. Based on that, it is safe to say that the synthetic chemicals used in any process that interfaces with anything natural are, generally speaking, more likely to have unforeseen and unintended consequences.

The unforeseen and unintended consequences are even more likely than the above would imply, though, because of the "artificial" manipulation of the processes of research, development, safety testing, and marketing for the synthetic chemicals. IMO, the two biggest factors in the "artificial" manipulation I are human oversight (aka negligence, aka short sightedness, aka etc, etc,) and the tendency of companies to put the profit motive above other considerations.

Oh yeah, btw, that show (Xavier) is WEIRD, man! I watched the first 3 episodes. I loved the gang one. Funny shit.
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A very good point indeed. I have little trust in industrialized agriculture, there are many many cases where the develop some magic fertilizer only to find that it wreaks havoc on other systems. DDT anyone? The scariest thing is that we are still going in the wrong direction. What are we doing with plant research now? Developing plants that are resistant to herbacides so you can spray the hell out of fields without damaging your crop. And people wonder why allot of the fruit and vegetables at the big grocery stores taste like cardboard.

I agree that beni's don't have the magnitude of impact that they do in soil but people can debate till the cows come home about organic soil grown bud and hydro bud in terms of taste but there has been few and far between that I smoked hydro bud that stood up to organically grown soil bud. It seems to me that its all the little things that make soil work and give the plants all the trace elements they need (guano, earth worm castings, etc).

And once again you see the industry popping up to take advantage of people, this time the hydro industry. There are all sorts of products designed to sweeten and flavor your bud yet there is not a single scientific study that I can find that demonstrates that these products do anything at all. Do you see apple or grape farmers pouring sugars on the soil or berry flavored sweeteners on their crops? No, because these people know that taste is mostly genetics and climate based, not something you dump on the plant.

ok, rant over. continue the slime war.

:)
 
hellraizer30

hellraizer30

Rebel From The North
legallyflying said:
A very good point indeed. I have little trust in industrialized agriculture, there are many many cases where the develop some magic fertilizer only to find that it wreaks havoc on other systems. DDT anyone? The scariest thing is that we are still going in the wrong direction. What are we doing with plant research now? Developing plants that are resistant to herbacides so you can spray the hell out of fields without damaging your crop. And people wonder why allot of the fruit and vegetables at the big grocery stores taste like cardboard.

I agree that beni's don't have the magnitude of impact that they do in soil but people can debate till the cows come home about organic soil grown bud and hydro bud in terms of taste but there has been few and far between that I smoked hydro bud that stood up to organically grown soil bud. It seems to me that its all the little things that make soil work and give the plants all the trace elements they need (guano, earth worm castings, etc).

And once again you see the industry popping up to take advantage of people, this time the hydro industry. There are all sorts of products designed to sweeten and flavor your bud yet there is not a single scientific study that I can find that demonstrates that these products do anything at all. Do you see apple or grape farmers pouring sugars on the soil or berry flavored sweeteners on their crops? No, because these people know that taste is mostly genetics and climate based, not something you dump on the plant.

ok, rant over. continue the slime war.

:)
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Once again legal i agree ive seen amd tryed
All of them and i just cant tell the difference
Or a need to use a sweetener or adding sugar
Just dont seem to make a good change like
Avertized only thing i see is a dirty rez and
Problems, but it needed for the tea and il use
Molassis for that but thats it, im on a lees is
More kick and triming down costs, and my yields
Dont seem to be affected
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm on the very same kick.

Most recent kick to the curb.. root excellerator. Yeah, it works..till it gunks up your rez. Besides, it seems if conditions are good, the damn roots grow just fine.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
SaneLawsMake4SaneSociety said:
This part contains the only thing you have said that I disagree with (that I know of). It is the part "If your company is using pharmaceutical grade chemicals then your bud will end up being just as safe and as clean as organic bud". There is an inherent assumption in there that we (man) or the company know everything that there is to know about what the plants need and what is going on not only in the plants in nature, but also what is going on inside plants grown in a non organic manner as well. We don't, though.

Nature has had literally billions of years to work out all of it's/her/our processes, and we, being part of Nature, have had millions of years of exposure to those processes to get acclimated to them. Based on that, it is safe to say that the synthetic chemicals used in any process that interfaces with anything natural are, generally speaking, more likely to have unforeseen and unintended consequences.

The unforeseen and unintended consequences are even more likely than the above would imply, though, because of the "artificial" manipulation of the processes of research, development, safety testing, and marketing for the synthetic chemicals. IMO, the two biggest factors in the "artificial" manipulation I are human oversight (aka negligence, aka short sightedness, aka etc, etc,) and the tendency of companies to put the profit motive above other considerations.
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Ah well, reverse my comments. Essentially I said synthetically grown bud is not any more toxic or dangerous than organic bud, which isn't to say both are equal. The angle many medical distributors take is that if you are sick, you better be safe than sorry. They then proceed to charge higher prices for a product that is bio-chemically and genetically identical to it's synthetically grown counterpart. Someone should never choose organics simply because they think it's healthier.


Scientifically, the term "organic food" is meaningless. It's like saying a "human person". All food is organic. All plants and animals are organic. Traditionally, an organic compound is one produced by life processes; chemically, it's any carbon-containing molecule with a carbon-hydrogen bond. Plastic and coal are organic, a diamond is not. So when we refer to organic food in such a way to exclude similar foods that are just as organic chemically, we're outside of any meaningful scientific use of the word, and are using it as a marketing label.
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The biggest misconception is that organic farming does not use fertilizer, herbicides, or pesticides. Of course it does. Fertilizer is essentially chemical nutrient, and the organic version delivers exactly the same chemical load as the synthetic. It has to, otherwise it wouldn't function. All plant fertilizers, organic and synthetic, consist of the same three elements: nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Referring to one as a "chemical" and implying that the other is not, is the worst kind of duplicity, and no intelligent person should tolerate it.
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Some supporters of organic growing claim that the danger of non-organic food lies in the residues of chemical pesticides. This claim is even more ridiculous: Since the organic pesticides and fungicides are less efficient than their modern synthetic counterparts, up to seven times as much of it must be used. Organic pesticides include rotenone, which has been shown to cause the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and is a natural poison used in hunting by some native tribes; pyrethrum, which is carcinogenic; sabadilla, which is highly toxic to honeybees; and fermented urine, which I don't want on my food whether it causes any diseases or not.
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Organic food myths
Critical thought on organic farming

Oh yeah, btw, that show (Xavier) is WEIRD, man! I watched the first 3 episodes. I loved the gang one. Funny shit.
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That show is mild compared to the creators previous show 'wonder showzen'. Wonder showzen is a tornado of absurdity that takes the form of a mock kids show and leaves you at every second going 'huh?".

legallyflying said:
Yeah, I'm on the very same kick.

Most recent kick to the curb.. root excellerator. Yeah, it works..till it gunks up your rez. Besides, it seems if conditions are good, the damn roots grow just fine.
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Yep, same conclusion I came to, however you can add it to your tea brew and still reap some of the benefits. I use it at about 1ml per 2 gal. It does give the tea a little boost.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
I am suspect of your links. Plastic is organic? Since when. The whole article is based on taking an extreme definitiOn of the word organic. All food is organic, yes. But that is not what the organic label is supposed to certify. As far as the claim "there have been no sickness it injury from pesticides" that is complete bullshit.

http://www.ipm-info.org/library/documents/jeryaratnam_who1990_acute_poisoning.pdf

I'm much more inclined to believe a report from the world health organization than some random website that is simply a pulpit for one mans view of the world. I didn't notice any links to anything in that article. I'm the last person to be mr. Go organic or die but that article gets to the key point of the post. We simply don't know what the effects of all those chemicals are on the world and it's inhabitants. Period. Look at hermaphroditic fish populations, or look at global cancer rates. Cancer rates are off the charts.. And who has the highest cancer rates? Industrialized countries, by more than 50%.

Everything you do has an effect on something. The earth is a closed system. pumping tons of chemicals into the world has consequences. Lastly, the whole "fertilizer increases production 10x" claim
Is also bunk and completely ignores the negative affects of long terms fertilizer, pesticide, and herbicide damage to soil structure, biotic communities, and overall health.

If your interested in the organic non organic debate. I encourage you to read this:
http://www.jdb.se/sbfi/publ/boston/boston7.html

Now that is 32 YEARS of research on the long term effects of organic and chemical soil treatments. If that can't make you think about your stance, I'm not sure anything will.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
legallyflying said:
I am suspect of your links. Plastic is organic? Since when. The whole article is based on taking an extreme definitiOn of the word organic. All food is organic, yes. But that is not what the organic label is supposed to certify. As far as the claim "there have been no sickness it injury from pesticides" that is complete bullshit.

http://www.ipm-info.org/library/documents/jeryaratnam_who1990_acute_poisoning.pdf

I'm much more inclined to believe a report from the world health organization than some random website that is simply a pulpit for one mans view of the world. I didn't notice any links to anything in that article. I'm the last person to be mr. Go organic or die but that article gets to the key point of the post. We simply don't know what the effects of all those chemicals are on the world and it's inhabitants. Period. Look at hermaphroditic fish populations, or look at global cancer rates. Cancer rates are off the charts.. And who has the highest cancer rates? Industrialized countries, by more than 50%.

Everything you do has an effect on something. The earth is a closed system. pumping tons of chemicals into the world has consequences. Lastly, the whole "fertilizer increases production 10x" claim
Is also bunk and completely ignores the negative affects of long terms fertilizer, pesticide, and herbicide damage to soil structure, biotic communities, and overall health.

If your interested in the organic non organic debate. I encourage you to read this:
http://www.jdb.se/sbfi/publ/boston/boston7.html

Now that is 32 YEARS of research on the long term effects of organic and chemical soil treatments. If that can't make you think about your stance, I'm not sure anything will.
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In science we have specific definitions of words, and in chemistry, carbon = organic, so yes plastic is organic. The fact that the organic label does not reflect science, and instead reflects an ideology, is the whole point. You are right to be suspicious of articles which do not cite sources, and I applaud the links you posted, however he does give sources at the bottom. Still, it is one man's interpretation of scientific consensus and I don't agree with everything he says, such as pesticides never being shown to cause harm, but the scientific context he establishes is sound, and applicable to the choice between synthetic and organic fertilizers we use for MJ. The choice of pesticides is beyond the scope of my statement. There is no evidence that bud grown with synthetic chemicals is more harmful than it's organic counterpart, which is the main theme some dispenceries and marketers go by. When they present this stance as fact and not speculation, it amounts to an exploitation of the fear of sick people. They are not appealing to the preservation of our world, but to the immediate concerns for personal health, of which I feel there are none.

Incidentally, not that this detracts from your point, but the earth is not a closed system as defined by science. Sunlight enters constantly. But the earth does contain closed systems which need to be protected, and I certainly believe that industrialized agriculture severely lacks consideration for that point.

EDIT: I am unable to rep you again so soon despite welcoming and enjoying your challenge.
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Well kudos for knowing the sunlight link to the closed system. But you have to agree for that all intents and purposes, the earth is a closed system in terms of chemical compounds, water movement, etc. It's the whole matter is neither created or destroyed thang. We are constantly transforming materials, compounds, matter, but there isn't any new sources of carbon raining down on the planet. (ok astroids, but let's be practical).

I thought the definition of organic was containing carbon derived from living organisms. There decomposition releases compounds that they fixed and assimilated. Not a big topic of contention for me, I buy organic when I can mostly to limit the support of Industrial Ag firms. Hard not to examine the facts and find those people are pretty fucking fucked.

Safety between salt and organic bud? No difference as far as I know. Other differences.. Would seem almost impossible or there not to be.. That was really the poin of the Swiss study link. Interesting findings there for sure, especially the part about types of nutritional elements found and I am pretty fascinated by the unique crystalline structure of th organic treatments.

On to more MJ based stuff.
Scrubbed my Rez, rinsed roots and added 3.5 gallons of tea to 25 gallons of fresh water. It was looking pretty grim in that tub. Looked like a shrek blew his nose on the bottom of my plants.
 
weednublet

weednublet

Active Member
Stupid question but:

I was poking around here and really liked the idea of beneficial microbes. I'll be running RDWC SoG, will peroxide (H202) cover my needs for anti-pathogen measures? Is this tea only used if you find a problem with pathogens?
 
legallyflying

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Valid question. The short answer is that while you can run a sterile system, it is often very difficult to do. Based on other things I have read, h2o2 won't cure or prevent everything. Best to just brew the bennies and keep adding them. Reason being, if you get bad microbes, you'll have nothing to combat them with.
 
weednublet

weednublet

Active Member
legallyflying said:
Valid question. The short answer is that while you can run a sterile system, it is often very difficult to do. Based on other things I have read, h2o2 won't cure or prevent everything. Best to just brew the bennies and keep adding them. Reason being, if you get bad microbes, you'll have nothing to combat them with.
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Thanks man. Will do. =D
 
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