Do any LED fixtures produce an HPS-like color?

Drop That Sound

Well-Known Member
Scientist just unlocked the chemical process involved within the coca plant to produce cocaine, and modified a tobacco plant to grow cocaine.


Whats next? Will they modify algae to grow cannabiniods, and then use artificial photosynthesis to grow the modified algae in the dark? o_O

 

effexxess

Well-Known Member
Are you saying mirroring hps spectrum should be the goal with leds?
Yes, apparently for the OP. From original:
"I know that many companies have added red LEDs, but they still don't produce light that looks like HPS light. It seems like it would be possible to recreate the HPS color with LEDs. "
 

Humanrob

Well-Known Member
I'm still trying to work out what "hit the mouth" means. Does it mean it's not as tasty? Not as potent? It makes him cough? What, exactly, does it mean?
This reminds me of the threads where people compare indoor vs outdoor grown buds. It's been a few years since I read one, but (IIRC) the folks who thought indoor was better said it was frostier and has better 'bag appeal', but outdoor growers claimed theirs smells and tastes better. So many variables, different amounts of experience, and everyone has an opinion.

I've tried lots of different kinds of lights -- CFLs, blurples, HPS, COB -- and each time I tried something new there was a bit of a learning curve. I wonder if in the same way that soil can be more "forgiving" than hydro, if HPS might not provide a wider margin for error than LED? Admittedly this idea isn't based on much, the only example I can give is that people reported needing to use more cal-mag after transitioning to LED, and I wonder if LED did not "require" more, it was just that HPS allowed for a greater range of tolerance for CM to be deficient? It's possible that 'more flexible' grow productivity is a factor in HPS producing preferable buds for some growers.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
This reminds me of the threads where people compare indoor vs outdoor grown buds. It's been a few years since I read one, but (IIRC) the folks who thought indoor was better said it was frostier and has better 'bag appeal', but outdoor growers claimed theirs smells and tastes better. So many variables, different amounts of experience, and everyone has an opinion.

I've tried lots of different kinds of lights -- CFLs, blurples, HPS, COB -- and each time I tried something new there was a bit of a learning curve. I wonder if in the same way that soil can be more "forgiving" than hydro, if HPS might not provide a wider margin for error than LED? Admittedly this idea isn't based on much, the only example I can give is that people reported needing to use more cal-mag after transitioning to LED, and I wonder if LED did not "require" more, it was just that HPS allowed for a greater range of tolerance for CM to be deficient? It's possible that 'more flexible' grow productivity is a factor in HPS producing preferable buds for some growers.
The indoor-vs-outdoor debate is interesting, but it's rarely on a level playing field. Almost anyone can replicate the same conditions indoors, but outdoor conditions vary wildly. We're lucky to be able to grow awesome pot outoors in Australia – I nearly always put a few plants outside when it's time – because we live in one of the sunniest places on earth with relatively dry air and a high UV index. I wouldn't claim properly grown outdoor weed is inferior to indoor weed by any stretch. It's always tasty and potent and you get the added bonus of being able to bring real sativas to full expression.

You could also make the argument that most of the indoor nutrient formulas we use have been tailored towards HPS and other HIDs all these years, so perhaps manufacturers should look at what they could do better under LED. I have learned to use higher concentrations (higher ECs) for LED grows as transpiration and evaporation at the root zone tend to be lower, and there is sometimes the need for a little more Cal-Mag, but not at the expense of a general increase in NPK. A bit of extra nitrogen can help with magnesium uptake and running a slightly higher pH in veg and early flower (when the plants need more Ca and Mg) can also help.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
What Rob just wrote is a lot more plausable than some adaptation to HPS that has occured over past 30 to 40yrs.
40 years multiplied by 4-5 generations a year is up to 200 generations. I think I read somewhere that it took 400 generations (10,000 years) for human populations out of Africa to turn from black to white once they arrived in northern europe.

Now let's look at the way pot has changed in the past 40 years. Again, I'm fortunate enough to have been smoking 40 years ago, so I've seen a few changes (as have other older growers). I don't get nostalgic about the god old days, but I do lament that there are very few smokers around today who know what it's like to smoke a pure – or even close to pure – sativa.

That said, genetics over the past four decades have gotten to the point where you can get a reasonably decent sativa-type high from a mostly indica looking plant that flowers early and yields well. But there is also a bit of a homogenous taste and feel to a lot of weed these days, so to me that appears to be a bit of a genetic bottle-neck. Especially as there are very few (if any) land race strains coming through these days to diversify the gene pool.

IMO, 40 years is more than enough time for plants to evolve under particular indoor lighting due to selective breeding. If plants are really more adaptable under HPS, then you have to ask yourself "Why?". Why are plants easier to grow under HPS? Is it because that's what we've been growing them under all this time?

Personally, I think it's a bit of genetic bias but mostly to do with the extra metabolic warmth we take for granted under HIDs. We all know that bacteria, plants, fish, bird, mammals and every other living thing on earth grows faster when its warm. It's a scientic fact.
 

Humanrob

Well-Known Member
What Rob just wrote is a lot more plausable than some adaptation to HPS that has occured over past 30 to 40yrs.
...or they could both be true.

40 years multiplied by 4-5 generations a year is up to 200 generations...

IMO, 40 years is more than enough time for plants to evolve under particular indoor lighting due to selective breeding. If plants are really more adaptable under HPS, then you have to ask yourself "Why?". Why are plants easier to grow under HPS? Is it because that's what we've been growing them under all this time?
That makes sense to me. It's not as though they would need to have a goal of finding strains that did well with a particular type of lighting, their quest for flavor and potency and whatever else -- being done in that environment rather consistently -- would automatically select for light source compatible genetics.

Personally, I think it's a bit of genetic bias but mostly to do with the extra metabolic warmth we take for granted under HIDs. We all know that bacteria, plants, fish, bird, mammals and every other living thing on earth grows faster when its warm. It's a scientic fact.
I have a gap in my knowledge here. When I switch from one light type to another, I adjust my ambient temps back to my baseline. So what I'm wondering is, if I ran my tent at 80º with HPS and at the same temp with LED, does the "type" of heat or source of heat make a difference in metabolic response? I guess I've never fully understood the IR factor.
 

f.r

Well-Known Member
I have a gap in my knowledge here. When I switch from one light type to another, I adjust my ambient temps back to my baseline. So what I'm wondering is, if I ran my tent at 80º with HPS and at the same temp with LED, does the "type" of heat or source of heat make a difference in metabolic response? I guess I've never fully understood the IR factor.
Yes different types of heat will effect the leaf surface different. As a general rule of thumb the leaf temps are generally 1 - 2 degrees celsius over ambient whereas LED will be 1 - 2 degress under ambient mainly due to IR differences. Also heat from leds is drawn out the back of the fixture where majority of the heat from HID is spewed from a single point down onto the plants.

When leaf temps drop below a certain amount photosynthesis struggles. Seems commercial guys with LEDs are even pushing ambients to 31c with high enough humidity and c02 under leds.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
...or they could both be true.


That makes sense to me. It's not as though they would need to have a goal of finding strains that did well with a particular type of lighting, their quest for flavor and potency and whatever else -- being done in that environment rather consistently -- would automatically select for light source compatible genetics.


I have a gap in my knowledge here. When I switch from one light type to another, I adjust my ambient temps back to my baseline. So what I'm wondering is, if I ran my tent at 80º with HPS and at the same temp with LED, does the "type" of heat or source of heat make a difference in metabolic response? I guess I've never fully understood the IR factor.
"Heat" is a measure of energy transfer. The "hotter" something is, the more energy is being transferred from one place to another.

There are basically three types of heat: conductive, convective, irradiative.

Conductive energy transfer happens when heat is conducted directly between objects – like heating up the end of a piece of metal that quickly gets hot at the other end.

Convective transfer happens when a moving gas or liquid comes into contact with a warm surface and wicks heat (energy) away. If the gas or liquid are not already in motion, then they form convective currents as they heat up (which changes their density) and move away to make room for more gas or liquid to take its place.

Irradiative heat is the transfer of energy through electromagnetic waves – photons. All visible light transfers energy, as does UV and IR. Except IR has a special property when it comes to interaction with water molecules, as it imparts energy very rapidly through water due to its frequency. This is despite IR waves having less energy than visible light.

IR is very efficient at energy (heat) transfer.

A good example is a microwave oven. Microwaves are not IR and in fact carry less energy, but they also interact with water molecules to transfer energy: which is why a microwave oven doesn't heat up a bowl (dry) but it does heat up the food inside (wet).

LEDs produce nearly all their heat via conduction through the solder pad on the back of the LED, through the PCB and then the heatsink (if there is one). That heat is then transferred by convection: air blowing over a heatsink, for example.

HPS bulbs produce a lot of IR, which is a form of "direct" heat, as it penetrates the leaf surface and interacts with the water in the plant to heat it up.

So, plants get their heat from LEDs when the heat is transferred to the air which circulates around the plant in the form of convective heat.

Plants get their heat from HPS via a much more direct route from IR – as well as convective heat, because HPS also transfers heat via convection currents (air blowing over the the hot, bare bulb).

Hopefully that helps people understand a bit more about heat transfer. And as I have already said, this is one of the main differences between HPS and LED light.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Here you can see the absorption of electromagnetic waves by H2O. Notice how it does not absorb as well in the visible light spectrum – which is, incidentally, why water appears clear under visible light (because it allows most visible light waves to pass through, instead of absorbing them).

Notice the huge uptick in the IR region to the right of the visible spectrum.

1670310185805.png


Here we zoom in. Have a look at the added heat absorption in the Far Red range after 700nm. This is another reason why we have 10% Far Red in our LEDs. Added red and far red can help raise leaf temps. There's about 20-25x as much absorption at 730nm (Far Red) compared to 600nm (yellow).

1670328200091.png
 

Humanrob

Well-Known Member
"Heat" is a measure of energy transfer. The "hotter" something is, the more energy is being transferred from one place to another.

There are basically three types of heat: conductive, convective, irradiative.

Conductive energy transfer happens when heat is conducted directly between objects – like heating up the end of a piece of metal that quickly gets hot at the other end.

Convective transfer happens when a moving gas or liquid comes into contact with a warm surface and wicks heat (energy) away. If the gas or liquid are not already in motion, then they form convective currents as they heat up (which changes their density) and move away to make room for more gas or liquid to take its place.

Irradiative heat is the transfer of energy through electromagnetic waves – photons. All visible light transfers energy, as does UV and IR. Except IR has a special property when it comes to interaction with water molecules, as it imparts energy very rapidly through water due to its frequency. This is despite IR waves having less energy than visible light.

IR is very efficient at energy (heat) transfer.

A good example is a microwave oven. Microwaves are not IR and in fact carry less energy, but they also interact with water molecules to transfer energy: which is why a microwave oven doesn't heat up a bowl (dry) but it does heat up the food inside (wet).

LEDs produce nearly all their heat via conduction through the solder pad on the back of the LED, through the PCB and then the heatsink (if there is one). That heat is then transferred by convection: air blowing over a heatsink, for example.

HPS bulbs produce a lot of IR, which is a form of "direct" heat, as it penetrates the leaf surface and interacts with the water in the plant to heat it up.

So, plants get their heat from LEDs when the heat is transferred to the air which circulates around the plant in the form of convective heat.

Plants get their heat from HPS via a much more direct route from IR – as well as convective heat, because HPS also transfers heat via convection currents (air blowing over the the hot, bare bulb).

Hopefully that helps people understand a bit more about heat transfer. And as I have already said, this is one of the main differences between HPS and LED light.
Wow, Thank You for taking the time to write such a coherent and comprehensive response!
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
No worries. I sometimes see a bit of confusion over what exactly "heat" is and why it's important to plants. Visible light is still "heat", however the wavelengths between 400 and 700nm (which is also the PAR range) are not as easily abosorbed by water, which is why visible light mostly passes through water without heating it up.

However, all photons are eventually converted to heat. Even photosynthesised photons that are used to fix carbon are eventually released as heat when plant matter is composted or burns.

Too much visible light (PAR) can also raise leaf temps and eventually lead to the bleaching you sometimes see under strong light. That's why leaves start to curl upwards when they get too much light as they are trying to transpire faster to cool themselves down through evaporation, which is an endothermic reaction. Photosynthesis is also endothermic.
 

Roguedawg

Well-Known Member
Sam and Breeder Steve and probably more of the old timers are still around, ask them if they were using HPS or sunlight. There is no doubt their parent material was sun grown and everything today comes from them.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Sam and Breeder Steve and probably more of the old timers are still around, ask them if they were using HPS or sunlight. There is no doubt their parent material was sun grown and everything today comes from them.
My recollection is they used both. In fact, Steve even says so on his web page: https://breedersteve.com/

The first of Steve's Adventure Mix I grew out in circa 2001 was from an accidental open pollination using a Sweet Tooth #3 male, which I believe happened indoors. I found one of the strongest indicas I'd ever smoked up to that point in that mix. Chimera (Ryan) used a lot of Steve's and DJ's genetics, and I believe he also made selections indoors and out, but mainly indoors. Perhaps I should ask him.

I also grew and smoked Sam's Skunk #1. The building blocks may have been from stock that had been grown outdoors for years (namely the sativa side), but I believe the original Skunk was refined indoors, where it continued to be refined in Holland predominantly indoors before the Dutch breeders started moving to facilities in Switzerland, as the legislative mood only changed in the late 1990s, so there was a good decade or more of indoor breeding prior to that.

One of the things you might be missing is the fact that, even strains that were selected outside were grown almost exclusively indoors when the seeds were sold. Anything that performed well indoors became popular – that's where the demand was. So indoor growing continued to influence breeding (demand needs supply, after all) even after some selections were made outdoors.

In reality, it was a combination of both, but many influential breeders – Bros Grimm is another that comes to mind – bred indoors. Nev's not around any more, but Scott (Shanti) would know how much of their lines were produced indoors, but SSH was bred indoors by Greenhouse and was another very influential strain. Ingmar's White Widow is another. The main reason indicas and hybrids became so popular was due to their ability to be grown indoors under lights.

Remember, the Dutch also could only grow one generation a year outdoors (and their outdoor season was short), so they needed to also breed indoors to maximise their breeding programs. They all grew year-round.
 

Norml56

Well-Known Member
Dude...read my post and actually understand the words that were typed before you write worthless novels that don't address a thing I said.

LED does npt produce the same quality as HPS...quality is not just THC%. Size, shape, potency, terps,...are NOT THE SAME QUALITY as with HPS. Read that again...they are NOT the same.
And MANY people are saying that. Again read that...did I say I was missing that?? No, but you can listen to industry pod cast, talk to growers...do what you want...MANY like HPS buds better. And if that is what they like...guess what bucko...that is what they want.
And to address those concerns...LEDs can easily make a near identical HPS SPD, and settle the spectrum part of that debate. Simple as that.Whixh as I said...HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

As far as heat...that doesn't fix the quality discrepancies. And before spewing your heat spiel....you could have read where I say a " a yrllow focused high IR spectrum...but why would you read what I wrote when responding right?
Did I say better or worse???...no, I said NOT THE SAME.
My hlg qb 288 boards are 2700k. Pretty close to my hps. They discontinued them pretty soon after releasing.
 

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
My hlg qb 288 boards are 2700k. Pretty close to my hps. They discontinued them pretty soon after releasing.
2700K is not 1800-2200k.
And even if it was...Just because things have the sames CCTs, doesn't mean the make up of them are the same.

Think of the CCT as a total and the addends are the indiividul colors of the spectrum...
Let us 10 for simplicity....

5+5=10
So does 2+2+2+2+2
And so does 4+5+1
and so does 5+3+2

The journey is the important part man....not the destination. Aka the pieces are what matter not so much the total.
 
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