Do any LED fixtures produce an HPS-like color?

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Roguedawg

Well-Known Member
There was HPS in holland then,but the original seed companies that most everything comes from today were using greenhouses for selections to be made for seed production. They were using large numbers. They all later went to switzerland because of the laws in holland changing and used large agriculture fields and greenhouses for selections. They used real big numbers. There are exceptions im sure, Northern Lights being one. There used to be pics of the fields in Switzlerand that one of breeders was using, think it was steve. The parent material for all the NorCal plants of today were selected under sun also.
Regardless you can make LED flower with just white diodes or white and red look like HPS flower with environment manipulation. If that is really what the poster wants.
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
I think its funny that here is 6 pages of people trying to convince everyone that the LED spectrums currently made are all they should want.
God forbid someone ask a great question that has NEVER BEEN PROVEN one way or the other.

Premise....
HPS grows GREAT cannabis. And LEDs DO have better output, but have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis. So what is the missing factor...maybe spectrum!

Test...
Use LEDs amazing ability to make specific spectrums to make an "HPS like" yellow focused with higher IR and see what happens.

LED cummunity response...
F that, what would you want that? we have already made the perfect SPD...see look, just like everyone on the market that this hypothesis is not satisfied with.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
HippieDudeRon said:
I think its funny that here is 6 pages of people trying to convince everyone that the LED spectrums currently made are all they should want.
God forbid someone ask a great question that has NEVER BEEN PROVEN one way or the other.

Premise....
HPS grows GREAT cannabis. And LEDs DO have better output, but have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis. So what is the missing factor...maybe spectrum!

Test...
Use LEDs amazing ability to make specific spectrums to make an "HPS like" yellow focused with higher IR and see what happens.

LED cummunity response...
F that, what would you want that? we have already made the perfect SPD...see look, just like everyone on the market that this hypothesis is not satisfied with.
Click to expand...
Hi Ron, what do you mean by LEDs "have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis"?

I grew under HPS for 20 years and I wouldn't go back to using it after LEDs – except in specific circumstances where extra warmth is needed in the grow area, and then you might as well use a HPS than other forms of heat as they also produce photosynthetic light.

However, growing in Australia where it gets hot ("So damned hot, I saw one of those little guys in orange robes burst into flames!" – Good Morning Vietnam reference), the last thing I need is more heat in the grow room.

All living things need metabolic warmth to survive. When it's cold, adding warmth will lead to faster growth. But when it's already warm, adding more heat can be detrimental.

I think a better experiement to try would be to have two grow rooms that are already at optimal temperature (around 30-32C) and then do the lighting experiment to see which one wins.

Because what I think is getting lost in these arguments is context: HPS may not be as efficient at produciong PAR as LED, but it's much more efficient at producing IR. So if IR (warmth in the form of radiated heat) is what's missing in your growroom, then adding more in the form of HPS will boost growth. But if photosynthetic light is lacking, then adding more PAR in the form of LED will boost growth.

Here's a photo to illustrate. This is a typical HPS spectrum. You can't tell me it's going to be more efficient at growing plants than a quality LED fixture, but it's great for adding the metabolic heat that drives organic chemistry! There's also more Far Red in this spectrum than typical LEDs, which is also going to make a difference to general growth, including flowering – unless your LED also produces a lot of Far Red light.
1669883285878.png

Searching for this image I also found this new DE Ceramic HPS spectrum from Horti. Check out the Far Red in this! But also note the uptick at 800nm, which I suspect means there is an even greater amount of IR beyond that range. Remember, these graphs are all relative to the area under the curve, so you can't look at them in isolation.
1669883516466.png

@HippieDudeRon, I wouldn't say that the LED vs HPS debate has never been proven. I think it is being proven every day with experienced growers moving away from HIDs to LEDs. We wouldn't be doing that if we weren't getting results. By "results" I am referring to similar yields for much less power consumption, as well the quality of the plant. But there is no shortage of warmth in my grow room so why would I want to divert energy consumption away from PAR into the (unrequired) IR region of the spectrum?

Simply put, HPS may help me in winter but my LED grows kill my HPS grows in summer.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Roguedawg said:
There was HPS in holland then,but the original seed companies that most everything comes from today were using greenhouses for selections to be made for seed production. They were using large numbers. They all later went to switzerland because of the laws in holland changing and used large agriculture fields and greenhouses for selections. They used real big numbers. There are exceptions im sure, Northern Lights being one. There used to be pics of the fields in Switzlerand that one of breeders was using, think it was steve. The parent material for all the NorCal plants of today were selected under sun also.
Regardless you can make LED flower with just white diodes or white and red look like HPS flower with environment manipulation. If that is really what the poster wants.
Click to expand...
Hi mate, not everything came out of Holland. The Dutch breeders only moved into places like Switzerland in the early to mid-90s when the legal situation started to change due to concerns over increasing pot tourism.

Prior to that, while it was still grown in greenhouses and outdoors in northern Europe – and the introduction of indica genes helped finish plants off faster to prevent mould and frost issues – those same indica genes really boosted the indoor scene and led to the indoor growing revolution that swept the globe.

My understanding is a lot of US and other genetics were still being bred indoors, and that a lot of Dutch breeders were still getting feedback from indoor growers that influenced what they produced. DJ Short's Blueberry lines have been hugely influential and DJ developed most of his strains almost exclusively indoors under lights. Many Canadian breeders did the same.

I'm not going to list every breeder here, but you get the idea. Serious breeders needed more than one outdoor season to develop their strains and so used lights to select from 4-6 generations a year indoors instead of just one generation a year outdoors. Indoor breeding accelerated the evolution of cannabis by virture of being able to grow year-round.

Also remember it is the end user who determines demand in the supply-demand economy. If most of the demand is from indoor growers growing under lights, then the most popular strains will be those that perform best under those lights. You can make an outdoor selection from thousands of plants, but if no-one wants to buy the seeds because they don't perform as well under lights as other strains . . . Again, you get the idea.

I mean, perhaps the real answer lies somewhere in the middle. But I would still argue that most of today's modern strains owe their success to growing indoors under HPS. That may change with the popularity of LEDs.
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Hi Ron, what do you mean by LEDs "have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis"?

I grew under HPS for 20 years and I wouldn't go back to using it after LEDs – except in specific circumstances where extra warmth is needed in the grow area, and then you might as well use a HPS than other forms of heat as they also produce photosynthetic light.

However, growing in Australia where it gets hot ("So damned hot, I saw one of those little guys in orange robes burst into flames!" – Good Morning Vietnam reference), the last thing I need is more heat in the grow room.

All living things need metabolic warmth to survive. When it's cold, adding warmth will lead to faster growth. But when it's already warm, adding more heat can be detrimental.

I think a better experiement to try would be to have two grow rooms that are already at optimal temperature (around 30-32C) and then do the lighting experiment to see which one wins.

Because what I think is getting lost in these arguments is context: HPS may not be as efficient at produciong PAR as LED, but it's much more efficient at producing IR. So if IR (warmth in the form of radiated heat) is what's missing in your growroom, then adding more in the form of HPS will boost growth. But if photosynthetic light is lacking, then adding more PAR in the form of LED will boost growth.

Here's a photo to illustrate. This is a typical HPS spectrum. You can't tell me it's going to be more efficient at growing plants than a quality LED fixture, but it's great for adding the metabolic heat that drives organic chemistry! There's also more Far Red in this spectrum than typical LEDs, which is also going to make a difference to general growth, including flowering – unless your LED also produces a lot of Far Red light.
View attachment 5232542

Searching for this image I also found this new DE Ceramic HPS spectrum from Horti. Check out the Far Red in this! But also note the uptick at 800nm, which I suspect means there is an even greater amount of IR beyond that range. Remember, these graphs are all relative to the area under the curve, so you can't look at them in isolation.
View attachment 5232544

@HippieDudeRon, I wouldn't say that the LED vs HPS debate has never been proven. I think it is being proven every day with experienced growers moving away from HIDs to LEDs. We wouldn't be doing that if we weren't getting results. By "results" I am referring to similar yields for much less power consumption, as well the quality of the plant. But there is no shortage of warmth in my grow room so why would I want to divert energy consumption away from PAR into the (unrequired) IR region of the spectrum?

Simply put, HPS may help me in winter but my LED grows kill my HPS grows in summer.
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Dude...read my post and actually understand the words that were typed before you write worthless novels that don't address a thing I said.

LED does npt produce the same quality as HPS...quality is not just THC%. Size, shape, potency, terps,...are NOT THE SAME QUALITY as with HPS. Read that again...they are NOT the same.
And MANY people are saying that. Again read that...did I say I was missing that?? No, but you can listen to industry pod cast, talk to growers...do what you want...MANY like HPS buds better. And if that is what they like...guess what bucko...that is what they want.
And to address those concerns...LEDs can easily make a near identical HPS SPD, and settle the spectrum part of that debate. Simple as that.Whixh as I said...HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

As far as heat...that doesn't fix the quality discrepancies. And before spewing your heat spiel....you could have read where I say a " a yrllow focused high IR spectrum...but why would you read what I wrote when responding right?
Did I say better or worse???...no, I said NOT THE SAME.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
HippieDudeRon said:
Dude...read my post and actually understand the words that were typed before you write worthless novels that don't address a thing I said.

LED does npt produce the same quality as HPS...quality is not just THC%. Size, shape, potency, terps,...are NOT THE SAME QUALITY as with HPS. Read that again...they are NOT the same.
And MANY people are saying that. Again read that...did I say I was missing that?? No, but you can listen to industry pod cast, talk to growers...do what you want...MANY like HPS buds better. And if that is what they like...guess what bucko...that is what they want.
And to address those concerns...LEDs can easily make a near identical HPS SPD, and settle the spectrum part of that debate. Simple as that.Whixh as I said...HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

As far as heat...that doesn't fix the quality discrepancies. And before spewing your heat spiel....you could have read where I say a " a yrllow focused high IR spectrum...but why would you read what I wrote when responding right?
Did I say better or worse???...no, I said NOT THE SAME.
Click to expand...
Dude, I think you need to calm down. I read your post – you clearly didn't even get past the first line of mine:
Hi Ron, what do you mean by LEDs "have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis"?
Click to expand...
If it's subjective quality you're talking about, then maybe you should have qualified that when you tried to make your point. Because I certainly don't agree that HPS bud is better, and almost no-one else I know around here does either. We've all been growing for decades, and we're constantly battling heat indoors as it is: the extra heat of HPS makes plants stretch, buds fluffly and kills terps. Air-conditoning is not always an option, and if it is, it almost doubles your power consumption.

Of course LEDs can replicate a HPS spectrum . . . except for the added IR. That's why I said a better comparison between the two would be to have two grow rooms at optimum temperature and then conduct the test. That way you remove the main variable separating the two – added heat.

It's only worthless if you don't understand it.
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Dude, I think you need to calm down. I read your post – you clearly didn't even get past the first line of mine:

If it's subjective quality you're talking about, then maybe you should have qualified that when you tried to make your point. Because I certainly don't agree that HPS bud is better, and almost no-one else I know around here does either. We've all been growing for decades, and we're constantly battling heat indoors as it is: the extra heat of HPS makes plants stretch, buds fluffly and kills terps. Air-conditoning is not always an option, and if it is, it almost doubles your power consumption.

Of course LEDs can replicate a HPS spectrum . . . except for the added IR. That's why I said a better comparison between the two would be to have two grow rooms at optimum temperature and then conduct the test. That way you remove the main variable separating the two – added heat.

It's only worthless if you don't understand it.
Click to expand...
Why do you keep inserting your opinion? They didn't ask you if you liked the LEDs buds or HPS...its THEIR opinion. And "they" have a lot more influence on the market(both flower and lights) than you do. And its far from one person or group. It's a lot of people.
Never said things were all equal. Under optimal conditions with both lights, they prefer hps over LED grown buds. At multiple farms, in multiple states. Whether you like it or agree with it...that is happening and what MANY people are saying and thinking.

The IR can be replicated too BTW. 800nm+ leds are readily available. Not talking cost...talking reality of what LEDs can do and research/testing could use to support or disprove the concept.


I laugh at anyone talking shit on HPS. They grow amazing bud. No one can deny that. Sure LED could do "better" some say and sure...but hps is fuckign great flower. Bad electric bills, but that's its major shortcoming, nit production or cost.

So goes righjt back to the biginning of this thread...
Premise....
HPS grows GREAT cannabis. And LEDs DO have better output, but have not produced that "same" style/quality cannabis. So what is the missing factor...maybe spectrum!

Test...
Use LEDs amazing ability to make specific spectrums to make an "HPS like" yellow focused with higher IR and see what happens.

LED cummunity response...
F that, what would you want that? we have already made the perfect SPD...see look, just like everyone on the market that this hypothesis is not satisfied with.
You can talk all day about what LED can do...but to try and talk shit on HPS buds quality makes you look like a fucking looser who never smoked anythign of quality in the last 40 years.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
LOL! Who the fuck are "they"? The Illuminati? What makes YOUR opinion any more valid than mine or the many growers I know who have been doing this for literally decades (40+ years in some cases)? We've all grown under HPS, MH, a mixture of the two, CMH, flurors.

Why do we now all grow under LED?

Maybe the Illuminati you refer to haven't been growing under the right LEDs. Many LED companies are only now starting to copy a spectrum that our team developed and have been using for years. Note the amount of Far Red and the "true" full ePAR spectrum (<400-750>nm). Now go and have a look at what other companies have recently introduced in terms of their revised spectra. Why are some now only starting to add significant Far Red to their lights, as well a photosynthetic violet below 430nm?

Do you think all those shitty "top-bin" (yeah, right!) 3000K + 5000K Chinese fixtures are the epitome of LED horticultural design?

1670050769420.png

The company I'm affliated with has now sold over 1500 LED grow lights world-wide. It's not big, but we're bigger than "back yard". And no-one has ever come back and said "I wish I could go back to HPS". Some note that HPS still yields right up there and I agree, because I've seen it myself. But none of them are wanting to go back to "HPS bud" because they are getting more manageable plants with better smells and tastes (terpenes), tighter bud structure and THC levels nudging 30% – pretty much unheard of in the HPS days.

You still haven't qualified what "great" cannabis is . . . So what is the purpose of your experiement if there is no measurable outcome?

What kind of experiment doesn't even define what it is trying to achieve???

These guys are one of the oldest, continuous cannabis breeders in Holland (ie; the company has never changed hands), and they certainly have access to a lot of good growers in Europe and elsewhere. What do they say about HPS vs LED?

Cannabis Crop differences between HPS and LED lights
This is the big question that ever cannabis seeds grower wants t an answer to. On this point, there really is no competition, according to conversations with numerous Paradise Seeds customers including experienced pros who’ve been in the game for a while.

After all the promise, LED technology is finally fulfilling its potential. Several times we have heard mention of the phrase ‘connoisseur’s choice’ associated with LEDS. Consistently we hear the same things from experienced cannabis growers who have made the switch to LEDs – better crop weight and bud density and improved aesthetics in the form of more trichome crystal cover.
Click to expand...
Link here: https://www.paradise-seeds.com/blog/best-grow-lights-2021-led-vs-hps-comparison/

For someone who started off rubbishing everything else that has been written in this thread (and continues to), you've really offered nothing of substance yourself.

And mate, it's "loser", not "looser". Unless, of course, you are being "loose" with the truth. :rolleyes:
 
Nizza

Nizza

Well-Known Member
I think you are looking for an answer that you aren't going to get.

Yeah hps is good and so is LED. I prefer LED for the dimming ability (cost savings) and no bulb changes (cost savings)

Hps has its place in cold grows which doesn't suit me, or alot of others--led has more output per watt which allows us to use less wattage per area.. so..

Even though there are some positives with Hps, leds have more for almost everyone. Initial cost could be a negative and maybe bud structure depending on strain (which has been discussed already ) but if you think you're going to convince everyone here who has tried both hps and led for themselves that hps is better then you're going to have a hard time
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Boatguy said:
You know... Them.
They arent just one person, but multiple in many places. They have an uncanny ability to identify and sort buds based on grow light.
It is truly remarkable
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LOL!

I have no issue with people who think "HPS bud" is better than "LED bud" – but at least give reasons WHY you think HPS bud is better. Don't just say it's better – end of story – and everyone else's opinion is wrong!

And if you do think "HPS bud" is better than "LED bud", then which LEDs are you talking about? Spell it out!

We've seen differences of 30% or more in cannabinoids between different LED grows using the same clones and conditions, so to lump all LEDs together is ludicrous.

Then, to cap it all off by saying everyeone who disagrees with you is a "looser" . . . I mean, really.
 
effexxess

effexxess

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
The company I'm affliated with has now sold over 1500 LED grow lights world-wide.
Click to expand...
You are obviously part of the global "them" haha.

Interested in how your light achieves the UV and far-red spikes? What diodes?

Other LEDs do not have this. Can you turn them on and off?

1670050769420 - Copy.png
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
I have no issue with people who think "HPS bud" is better than "LED bud" – but at least give reasons WHY you think HPS bud is better. Don't just say it's better – end of story – and everyone else's opinion is wrong!
Click to expand...
You really can't read can you...
HippieDudeRon said:
Size, shape, potency, terps,...are NOT THE SAME QUALITY as with HPS. Read that again...they are NOT the same.
Click to expand...
And many prefer the HPS grown attributes. Cry about it. Doesn't change those facts.

Dude asked for an HPS light spectrum from an LED...and here you are arguing why they shouldn't want that. That's not your business what he wants. But your denial to make it happen or that someone should is a clear sign your here to sell your lights not talk cannabis and expression.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
effexxess said:
You are obviously part of the global "them" haha.

Interested in how your light achieves the UV and far-red spikes? What diodes?

Other LEDs do not have this. Can you turn them on and off?

View attachment 5233410
Click to expand...
The UV are 405nm Nichia NVSU219 3535 diodes that are over 70% efficient. The Far Reds are 730nm Led Teknik 3535 diodes that are based on the Cree XPE but are cheaper and more efficient. Our spectrum is on a single channel, which is more efficient and less complex.

We don't see any great benefit to turning them on and off. The 405nm diodes are in the PAR range with residual UVA, which means they promote both primary and secondary metabolites and can be run for 12 hours without over-stressing the plant, unlike stronger UVA and UVB diodes. The small amount of UV also offsets shade avoidence at the other end of the spectrum which has around 10% Far Red.
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
HippieDudeRon said:
Whatever helps you deny addressing this threads original post and my support his concept.

But sure...I must be an HPS guy asking these crazy questions right...
View attachment 5233436

Go ahead and keep deflecting and projecting...
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I honestly don't care what you are. No-one is arguing the OP can't have his HPS or HPS-like LED spectrum. You're the only who keeps telling us HPS grows better buds without quantifying it. I disagree. That is all.

As for the OP, if he was getting red stems and lacklustre growth under his LED compared to his HPS, then that indicates to me conditions were not optimal under his LED. I've grown sucessfully under both. There's nothing wrong with LED bud if you use a quality fixture and know how to dial things in.

Acid1bud.jpg
 
H

HippieDudeRon

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
I honestly don't care what you are. No-one is arguing the OP can't have his HPS or HPS-like LED spectrum. You're the only who keeps telling us HPS grows better buds without quantifying it. I disagree. That is all.

As for the OP, if he was getting red stems and lacklustre growth under his LED compared to his HPS, then that indicates to me conditions were not optimal under his LED. I've grown sucessfully under both. There's nothing wrong with LED bud if you use a quality fixture and know how to dial things in.
Click to expand...
Then make an LED that 's spectrum exactly like HPS and be done with it. That is literally the ask of the OP.
You can bitch all you want about what you think is better vs other people's wants. Doesn't matter, you're not them so stop trying to insert your opinion over theirs. Stick to the facts.

Make the Spectrum, be done with it. Or shut up about what you think is better compared to a larger populations ask.
 
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