Biden Shanked The Progs

Bagginski · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
Schuy, you are simply reinforcing the stereotype that the "Progs", as you name your political group, are just expecting free stuff. A sentiment that is also voiced in this dumbass therad of yours, which claims Biden "shanked the "Progs". As said in this article from The Intercept,

For almost every role so far, Biden has chosen someone more progressive and less entrenched in Wall Street than the same official under Obama.

Biden is rationally recognizing the trend toward a more urban and liberal Democratic Party by picking progressive leadership for his administration. But that's not enough for "The Progs", they want it all just handed to them without their earning it by competing with Republicans in contested districts AND WINNING.

When a person is having trouble making ends meet and they are capable of doing work then must they work and earn it. Sorry dear, but it's not exactly a new thing to most of us.

If your income is as low as you say it is, you are probably already getting a whopping large subsidy for heath care. Not saying you should be grateful but at least stop carping about something that you already have access to. Same goes at the national level. Biden is favoring "The Progs" because they are a growing and important faction of the Democratic Party. If they want more power, they will have to earn it.

The authoritarian and fascist Republican Party is a formidable threat to freedom in this country. Democrats won this round but the fight isn't over. Rather than biting at Democrats because we didn't just hand you and The Progs the keys to the country, how about if they go out and do something that is worth doing?

Just dropping in to say that simply being willing to work, and being able to work, aren’t always the magic keys.

I very likely have another ten years of professional working life ahead of me. I am one of the very best in my field, and my time and my skills are easily worth three time what my students are able to earn; the nature of the profession makes it hard for those who know my worth the best to pay that rate - and hard for those who don’t know my worth to justify that rate; and the nature of the current circumstances have greatly reduced the number places I can do my work as well as the pool of clients...many of who are forced out of my rate-range. This has the unfortunate effect of putting me in price competition with my own students: a thing that would eliminate my prospects of gaining future students, were I to engage in it. Sadly, but for that host of reasons, my profession is closed to me.

I have looked around for other work, only to find high-risk/no-reward prospects. I have no fear of getting sick, nor even of dying, but my living situation contains immune-compromised and disabled persons, and I have a reasonable fear of THEM getting sick and/or dying. So my “choice” is to put myself and my situation at greater and greater risk for an inadequate and diminishing return. I do not “sit around and wait for a check”, because I’m not eligible for a check. Instead, I support the household by being the house manager, getting done all the things that others are unable to do, and I pay for the privilege with a full half of my social security each month - the rest of which goes to everything else, from food to medicine to transportation.

This month, I will be attempting a limited restart of my practice. If it goes well, I should be able to easily double my total income almost immediately; if not, I will continue to eke by until things change again, rather than expose myself to greater risk and expense in hopes that it might make something better AND make nothing worse.

And I look for every opportunity to make a buck, swing a deal, cut expenses. Just like EVERYBODY ELSE.

Just like you, I have NO idea what schuyler is dealing with...but unlike many, I have NO REASON TO SLAM OTHERS FOR THE JAM THEY’RE IN. Especially in times like these, when the jams people are in are, at best, subject to what the times themselves are up to. Compassion isn’t hard: it just requires that we not treat others like they’re assholes - and not treat others like WE are assholes. If compassion *seems* hard to you, maybe you just haven’t lost enough yet.

schuylaar · Dec 2, 2020

hanimmal said:
Why do you think it is 'so disappointing'?

it should be obvious..no?

hanimmal · Dec 2, 2020

schuylaar said:
it should be obvious..no?

Not to me.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to say Biden's VP and cabinet picks so far are not a better representative of everyone in our nation than there has ever been.

Things like 'we haven't spoken to Biden since he was elected' is not the same as 'Biden's team has not been in contact with us'.

People are looking for drama where there isn't any. It gets old and is exactly what the Republicans want to sell the Democratic party narrative to be. Biden is riding a fine line to not screw up Georgia's elections in January so that he is in position to get some real work done. Because if they don't win both seats it won't be until 2022 that he will be able to do much for our economy with Mitch's obstruction. And that is if Biden can lead the Democrats to big wins in 2022.

schuylaar · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
Schuy, you are simply reinforcing the stereotype that the "Progs", as you name your political group, are just expecting free stuff. A sentiment that is also voiced in this dumbass therad of yours, which claims Biden "shanked the "Progs". As said in this article from The Intercept,

For almost every role so far, Biden has chosen someone more progressive and less entrenched in Wall Street than the same official under Obama.

Biden is rationally recognizing the trend toward a more urban and liberal Democratic Party by picking progressive leadership for his administration. But that's not enough for "The Progs", they want it all just handed to them without their earning it by competing with Republicans in contested districts AND WINNING.

When a person is having trouble making ends meet and they are capable of doing work then must they work and earn it. Sorry dear, but it's not exactly a new thing to most of us.

If your income is as low as you say it is, you are probably already getting a whopping large subsidy for heath care. Not saying you should be grateful but at least stop carping about something that you already have access to. Same goes at the national level. Biden is favoring "The Progs" because they are a growing and important faction of the Democratic Party. If they want more power, they will have to earn it.

The authoritarian and fascist Republican Party is a formidable threat to freedom in this country. Democrats won this round but the fight isn't over. Rather than biting at Democrats because we didn't just hand you and The Progs the keys to the country, how about if they go out and do something that is worth doing?

are you talking about Medic AID as opposed to Medi CARE, friend? and which do I have?

how is it you know what my capabilities are?

my whopping subsidy of SNAP is $16 because of a clerk error or payola- you decide.

schuylaar · Dec 2, 2020

hanimmal said:
Not to me.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to say Biden's VP and cabinet picks so far are not a better representative of everyone in our nation than there has ever been.

Things like 'we haven't spoken to Biden since he was elected' is not the same as 'Biden's team has not been in contact with us'.

People are looking for drama where there isn't any. It gets old and is exactly what the Republicans want to sell the Democratic party narrative to be. Biden is riding a fine line to not screw up Georgia's elections in January so that he is in position to get some real work done. Because if they don't win both seats it won't be until 2022 that he will be able to do much for our economy with Mitch's obstruction. And that is if Biden can lead the Democrats to big wins in 2022.

so you're saying that because Progs are making an early selection to where they wish to have access to a seat at the table is..dramatic?

hanimmal · Dec 2, 2020

schuylaar said:
so you're saying that because Progs are making an early selection to where they wish to have access to a seat at the table is..dramatic?

What is a 'prog'?

rkymtnman · Dec 2, 2020

schuylaar said:
all day long? why would you track my activity? is there something about me you feel you need to keep tabs on? if so, enlighten the members..

attention members!!! hear ye, hear ye!!!
hmmm, let's see:
first post: 5:40am
last post (so far): 1:43pm
that's an 8 hour day you could be at work per my calculations. instead of bitching and moaning about you got $16.

i thought you claimed to be a Progressive, not a welfare queen Always-Trumper. my mistake. i'll quit trying to help.

Fogdog · Dec 2, 2020

schuylaar said:
are you talking about Medic AID as opposed to Medi CARE, friend? and which do I have?

how is it you know what my capabilities are?

my whopping subsidy of SNAP is $16 because of a clerk error or payola- you decide.

View attachment 4758048

We aren't friends and I'm talking about the ACA, which subsidizes healthcare for people with low incomes.

I don't really give a shit about your low SNAP subsidy because you are able to work. That money is mostly targeted for children.

That picture should become the logo for the third party you Sanders believers should start. Or is it a selfie?

Fogdog · Dec 2, 2020

Bagginski said:
Just dropping in to say that simply being willing to work, and being able to work, aren’t always the magic keys.

I very likely have another ten years of professional working life ahead of me. I am one of the very best in my field, and my time and my skills are easily worth three time what my students are able to earn; the nature of the profession makes it hard for those who know my worth the best to pay that rate - and hard for those who don’t know my worth to justify that rate; and the nature of the current circumstances have greatly reduced the number places I can do my work as well as the pool of clients...many of who are forced out of my rate-range. This has the unfortunate effect of putting me in price competition with my own students: a thing that would eliminate my prospects of gaining future students, were I to engage in it. Sadly, but for that host of reasons, my profession is closed to me.

I have looked around for other work, only to find high-risk/no-reward prospects. I have no fear of getting sick, nor even of dying, but my living situation contains immune-compromised and disabled persons, and I have a reasonable fear of THEM getting sick and/or dying. So my “choice” is to put myself and my situation at greater and greater risk for an inadequate and diminishing return. I do not “sit around and wait for a check”, because I’m not eligible for a check. Instead, I support the household by being the house manager, getting done all the things that others are unable to do, and I pay for the privilege with a full half of my social security each month - the rest of which goes to everything else, from food to medicine to transportation.

This month, I will be attempting a limited restart of my practice. If it goes well, I should be able to easily double my total income almost immediately; if not, I will continue to eke by until things change again, rather than expose myself to greater risk and expense in hopes that it might make something better AND make nothing worse.

And I look for every opportunity to make a buck, swing a deal, cut expenses. Just like EVERYBODY ELSE.

Just like you, I have NO idea what schuyler is dealing with...but unlike many, I have NO REASON TO SLAM OTHERS FOR THE JAM THEY’RE IN. Especially in times like these, when the jams people are in are, at best, subject to what the times themselves are up to. Compassion isn’t hard: it just requires that we not treat others like they’re assholes - and not treat others like WE are assholes. If compassion *seems* hard to you, maybe you just haven’t lost enough yet.

My post was not directed at you but I seem to have hit a nerve in you. Mostly it was written in aggravation at the so-called Progressives or "Progs" whose policies I mostly agree with but their relentless attacks on Democrats has made me wonder if I can call them allies or enemies. The French, during their revolution, coined a term for her attitudes and behavior: spitting in the soup. I have no problem about being rude to people who are rude to me, which Schuy most certainly has. In any case, she's like a stink bug. Can't squash her. She'll continue to be crazy, rude and make unjustified demands, because that's who she is. Don't worry about her, she gives much more shit than she gets.

You and I both know that the world changed the moment this virus came into it. Everybody is affected. The Congressmen that I voted for would have passed a second bill to keep everybody afloat but we both know who stopped it. So, everybody must switch from macro to micro in their economic lives. I would have been happy to hear schuy waxing on about how comfortable she is with the subsidy that she was getting. That's not happening, so she has to deal with it like everybody else. Including you and me. But "Biden shanked the Progs"? That's a bit over the top, isn't it?

When this epidemic is reduced to the point where we may again carry on a public life, it's going to be different. I don't know what's going to happen. One thing I will not do is complain about how terrible Democrats are when almost all of the things wrong are due to actions of Republicans.

Just aside, I don't know what you do and don't want to. However, you won't work because it would affect your students? I guess we are cut from different cloth. Family first in my mind. My kids will eat.

Fogdog · Dec 2, 2020

schuylaar said:
so you're saying that because Progs are making an early selection to where they wish to have access to a seat at the table is..dramatic?

For almost every role so far, Biden has chosen someone more progressive and less entrenched in Wall Street than the same official under Obama.

progressive, not Prog

hanimmal · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
My post was not directed at you but I seem to have hit a nerve in you. Mostly it was written in aggravation at the so-called Progressives or "Progs" whose policies I mostly agree with but their relentless attacks on Democrats has made me wonder if I can call them allies or enemies. The French coined a term for her attitudes and behavior during their revolution: spitting in the soup. I have no problem about being rude to people who are rude to me, which Schuy most certainly has. In any case, she's like a stink bug. Can't squash her. She'll continue to be crazy, rude and make unjustified demands, because that's who she is. Don't worry about her, she gives much more shit than she gets.

You and I both know that the world changed the moment this virus came into it. Everybody is affected. The Congressmen that I voted for would have passed a second bill to keep everybody afloat but we both know who stopped it. So, everybody must switch from macro to micro in their economic lives. I would have been happy to hear schuy waxing on about how comfortable she is with the subsidy that she was getting. That's not happening, so she has to deal with it like everybody else. Including you and me. But "Biden shanked the Progs"? That's a bit over the top, isn't it?

When this epidemic is reduced to the point where we may again carry on a public life, it's going to be different. I don't know what's going to happen. One thing I will not do is complain about how terrible Democrats are when almost all of the things wrong are due to actions of Republicans.

Just aside, I don't know what you do and don't want to. However, you won't work because it would affect your students? I guess we are cut from different cloth. Family first in my mind. My kids will eat.

I am waiting for his full list of cabinet appointments before making a 'Biden did not shank the progs' thread.

Fogdog · Dec 2, 2020

hanimmal said:
I am waiting for his full list of cabinet appointments before making a 'Biden did not shank the progs' thread.

eh,

The early reviews are good. I reserve the right to change my mind but I'm pretty confident that Biden gets it. The Progs are insatiable in their demands, which, if met, would just hand government back to Republicans. I'll listen to them but reserve the right to disagree.

hanimmal · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
eh,

The early reviews are good. I reserve the right to change my mind but I'm pretty confident that Biden gets it. The Progs are insatiable in their demands, which, if met, would just hand government back to Republicans. I'll listen to them but reserve the right to disagree.

Im convinced that the ones in DC are just as radicalized by their 'followers' as Trump is.

Bagginski · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
My post was not directed at you but I seem to have hit a nerve in you. Mostly it was written in aggravation at the so-called Progressives or "Progs" whose policies I mostly agree with but their relentless attacks on Democrats has made me wonder if I can call them allies or enemies. The French, during their revolution, coined a term for her attitudes and behavior: spitting in the soup. I have no problem about being rude to people who are rude to me, which Schuy most certainly has. In any case, she's like a stink bug. Can't squash her. She'll continue to be crazy, rude and make unjustified demands, because that's who she is. Don't worry about her, she gives much more shit than she gets.

You and I both know that the world changed the moment this virus came into it. Everybody is affected. The Congressmen that I voted for would have passed a second bill to keep everybody afloat but we both know who stopped it. So, everybody must switch from macro to micro in their economic lives. I would have been happy to hear schuy waxing on about how comfortable she is with the subsidy that she was getting. That's not happening, so she has to deal with it like everybody else. Including you and me. But "Biden shanked the Progs"? That's a bit over the top, isn't it?

When this epidemic is reduced to the point where we may again carry on a public life, it's going to be different. I don't know what's going to happen. One thing I will not do is complain about how terrible Democrats are when almost all of the things wrong are due to actions of Republicans.

Just aside, I don't know what you do and don't want to. However, you won't work because it would affect your students? I guess we are cut from different cloth. Family first in my mind. My kids will eat.

Just so, my response wasn’t really “to” you at all, it was to ideas bout who “can” and who “can’t” work. In general, I agree with you on most things...I certainly agree that there is venom in the notion that our politics are a literal knife fight, and that such venom is out of place...then again, I once agreed with such personal responses to impersonal events. When I was much younger...*old* rodeo clown, now.

Let me clear up one real misunderstanding: my kids are GROWN, they are self-supporting, so I only need to see to feeding and housing myself (yes, I stay in touch with them, they’re fine, considering). It’s extremely tight doing that on just SSI, but I don’t HAVE to compete with my students to survive...and so I choose not to. It may seem odd, but I make a lot of money teaching - which, of course, I can’t do in a distancing world in no small part due to the simple fact that the teaching, the training, can’t be done remotely, and I can’t effectively market to potential students when they are trying not to get thrown out due to a flat-to-failing economy. Competing for clients with students I’ve trained, students on precarious budgets, would burn down my teaching practice and salt the earth where it stood. It would be crazy to just do that, though if THAT was the difference between my survival or lack of survival, I’d have no real option, and would have to suffer the consequences of doing it. If I were to choose to do that, I’d still be in a profession that is largely shutdown by the pandemic, and I’d be hard-pressed to cobble together enough work to justify the effort and the additional risk. These things are just true. It doesn’t matter how I ‘feel’ about any of this. I am able to just keep my nose above water - and do it honorably, without creating burdens for others...because that’s who I am, that’s how I work. Because I expect the pandemic will cease to be the current situation; I am very comfortable masked; I am very comfortable distancing (though I used to get a lot of hugs, and I miss them); I am very comfortable letting people assess the risks of working with me on their own terms. As I said, I will be doing a time-limited trial restart of my practice; I expect it to be safely doable, but that is a choice others will have to make...and I will see - as with everything - whether the returns are worth the risks.

I know you don’t really need to hear any of this; I don’t really have the sense we’re on different pages, and I appreciate your perspective and sharing my own in response: I’m in my 70s, and I didn’t get here by accident: every situation, every choice, every trade-off, every potential outcome is very different, the less time you have. Pardon me if my bones stick out sometimes!

Bagginski · Dec 2, 2020

Fogdog said:
My post was not directed at you but I seem to have hit a nerve in you. Mostly it was written in aggravation at the so-called Progressives or "Progs" whose policies I mostly agree with but their relentless attacks on Democrats has made me wonder if I can call them allies or enemies.

You and I both know that the world changed the moment this virus came into it. Everybody is affected. The Congressmen that I voted for would have passed a second bill to keep everybody afloat but we both know who stopped it. So, everybody must switch from macro to micro in their economic lives. I would have been happy to hear schuy waxing on about how comfortable she is with the subsidy that she was getting. That's not happening, so she has to deal with it like everybody else. Including you and me. But "Biden shanked the Progs"? That's a bit over the top, isn't it?

When this epidemic is reduced to the point where we may again carry on a public life, it's going to be different. I don't know what's going to happen. One thing I will not do is complain about how terrible Democrats are when almost all of the things wrong are due to actions of Republicans.

There is certainly a strain of “radical progressives” who seem to feel that anything less that total victory isn’t worth showing up for, who seem to feel that every event, every occasion can be analyzed quickly and definitely by “finding the sell-out(s)”, that moral choices are always stark black, stark white. I’ve given up trying to suggest their inner calculus might be missing a few variables: “Chump don’t want the help? Chump don’t *get* the help”.

It does put them in a reactive place...not at all unlike the “radical regressives” that call themselves “conservatives” these days...stark contrast, no nuance. Can definitely interfere with conversation.

You are IMO totally right about our Covid holiday year: it’s changed everything...including things we haven’t really noticed yet. Some of those I hope will result in better governance, tighter, safer, more secure elections, bringing the federal schedule into the 24/7/365 world - we *were* mostly farmers once, so we ran things on a farmer-friendly schedule; but rapid transit (in all its forms), rapid communication/the net make it entirely unworkable to assume congresspeople have to cross several states on horseback to get anything done! Many other things are going to change, at least potentially better, but that will depend on US paying better attention, working to create better rules, elect better candidates, replace marginal policies and goals with better ones...and playing for a better win, a better outcome, not just jockeying for position. The best-dressed rat on theTitanic is *still* a rat, after all - and that ships *still* going down.

likewise, I’m with you on the not-complaining part: getting Trump out of office was an existential necessity, and the only way we have of doing that in an orderly fashion is replace him and his people with members of the other party. I’ve been through the seven stages of Sanders support myself; I don’t hate on Joe, I don’t think Bernie is a “sellout”, I think we’re currently fighting to establish a secure landing zone on the beaches of Normandy: what we’ll do, and who we’ll need, when we “push inland” - we’ll deal with that at the time. What I will do is get involved with the local democrats, figure out how to make them listen to me, and pressure them to pick better people, make better choices, draw up better plans, and act decisively. Making Democrats listen has got to be vastly more effective than pushing back against the tidal wave of bullshit; I certainly haven’t noticed that working.

Mission: Dump Trump is still ongoing, at least in some senses. I’m not on that team, beyond supporting the Georgia run-offs, so I’ll let those on the field finish up. There’ll be something else I can do soon enough, so there will be a short celebration following mission completion, and then it’s back into the trenches.

hanimmal · Dec 3, 2020

Bagginski said:
There is certainly a strain of “radical progressives” who seem to feel that anything less that total victory isn’t worth showing up for, who seem to feel that every event, every occasion can be analyzed quickly and definitely by “finding the sell-out(s)”, that moral choices are always stark black, stark white. I’ve given up trying to suggest their inner calculus might be missing a few variables: “Chump don’t want the help? Chump don’t *get* the help”.

It does put them in a reactive place...not at all unlike the “radical regressives” that call themselves “conservatives” these days...stark contrast, no nuance. Can definitely interfere with conversation.

You are IMO totally right about our Covid holiday year: it’s changed everything...including things we haven’t really noticed yet. Some of those I hope will result in better governance, tighter, safer, more secure elections, bringing the federal schedule into the 24/7/365 world - we *were* mostly farmers once, so we ran things on a farmer-friendly schedule; but rapid transit (in all its forms), rapid communication/the net make it entirely unworkable to assume congresspeople have to cross several states on horseback to get anything done! Many other things are going to change, at least potentially better, but that will depend on US paying better attention, working to create better rules, elect better candidates, replace marginal policies and goals with better ones...and playing for a better win, a better outcome, not just jockeying for position. The best-dressed rat on theTitanic is *still* a rat, after all - and that ships *still* going down.

likewise, I’m with you on the not-complaining part: getting Trump out of office was an existential necessity, and the only way we have of doing that in an orderly fashion is replace him and his people with members of the other party. I’ve been through the seven stages of Sanders support myself; I don’t hate on Joe, I don’t think Bernie is a “sellout”, I think we’re currently fighting to establish a secure landing zone on the beaches of Normandy: what we’ll do, and who we’ll need, when we “push inland” - we’ll deal with that at the time. What I will do is get involved with the local democrats, figure out how to make them listen to me, and pressure them to pick better people, make better choices, draw up better plans, and act decisively. Making Democrats listen has got to be vastly more effective than pushing back against the tidal wave of bullshit; I certainly haven’t noticed that working.

Mission: Dump Trump is still ongoing, at least in some senses. I’m not on that team, beyond supporting the Georgia run-offs, so I’ll let those on the field finish up. There’ll be something else I can do soon enough, so there will be a short celebration following mission completion, and then it’s back into the trenches.

The only thing I have against Sanders is all the coincidences.

His almost 2012 run against Obama (same as Trump),

https://www.rollitup.org/t/russia-is-supporting-bernie-sanders-as-well-as-trump-again-in-2020.1006871/post-15334204

the Russian military supporting him (and Trump) in 2016,

And the Russian military pushing him again in 2019,
https://www.rollitup.org/t/russia-is-supporting-bernie-sanders-as-well-as-trump-again-in-2020.1006871/

And I really don't trust some of the people he surrounded himself with because of their rhetoric that is so useful again the Democratic party.

Outside of the above I don't really know enough to not like the guy, his heart seems in the right place, but there is no room to screw around and give the Russian military what they want right now.

schuylaar · Dec 3, 2020

Bagginski · Dec 3, 2020

hanimmal said:
The only thing I have against Sanders is all the coincidences.

His almost 2012 run against Obama (same as Trump),

https://www.rollitup.org/t/russia-is-supporting-bernie-sanders-as-well-as-trump-again-in-2020.1006871/post-15334204

the Russian military supporting him (and Trump) in 2016,

And the Russian military pushing him again in 2019,
https://www.rollitup.org/t/russia-is-supporting-bernie-sanders-as-well-as-trump-again-in-2020.1006871/

And I really don't trust some of the people he surrounded himself with because of their rhetoric that is so useful again the Democratic party.

Outside of the above I don't really know enough to not like the guy, his heart seems in the right place, but there is no room to screw around and give the Russian military what they want right now.

If by “Russian military support for Sanders”, you mean using ‘support’ to prevent the Sanders crew and the Clinton crew from *ever* uniting, then I agree completely...but I think it’s inaccurate and misleading to suggest the Russians had any interest in seeing Sanders become president - or even a nominee - at all: it was his devoted, enthusiastic, and *YOUNG* (ie, politically inexperienced) base of support they wanted - and they wanted to put them at war with the PUMA crowd (remember *those* cats? The pantsuit army? “Party Unity, My Ass!” was the HRC pushback against *OBAMA* during his first campaign)

And they DID set about creating the kind of blood-feud in ‘16 that lasted until TODAY...and shows NO signs of slacking. PUMA forever, baby! The earth has been pretty much salted between Sanders and every other Dem candidate, and it was the same trick GOP used on Clinton herself for so many years - and effectively, too. Clinton was able to overcome it with her crew, who by the time Benghazi came around had become hardened against any form of attack against her...and when outrageous shit started to pass around about “Bernie bros”, and disrespect to HRC, to non-white populations, and ‘just another self-centered clueless white guy’, the PUMA crew frankly welcomed the chance to really tear into some “real” adversaries. Did any Sanders supporters go “Bernie or burn”? Yes, sadly, some did...but there was true passion, true idealism, true hope for each candidate, so the Russians undertook to make sure the two crews *NEVER* united...and that fire still burns: I can still hear the fake shit flying back and forth. There’s hardly even a day that goes by, when I *don’t* hear the poison being spouted by an otherwise sane, intelligent, trustworthy HRC supporter...and it’s the SAME poison, the same weapons from ‘16 still being rolled out against Sanders, and mostly against his made-up Russian zombie “supporters”.

They did their work well. Wish I could admire it, but it’s been a freaking TRAGEDY - and it’s not going away, maybe not ever...and I find that hideously sad...just as I do the THIRTY YEARS of relentless GOP attacks she’s endured - at taxpayer expense. At this point, it no longer really matters: both of them will never be major political figures again. I’ll bet Russia, and GOP, are mighty happy about that - but I’m not. Not at ALL.

hanimmal · Dec 3, 2020

Bagginski said:
If by “Russian military support for Sanders”, you mean using ‘support’ to prevent the Sanders crew and the Clinton crew from *ever* uniting, then I agree completely...but I think it’s inaccurate and misleading to suggest the Russians had any interest in seeing Sanders become president - or even a nominee - at all: it was his devoted, enthusiastic, and *YOUNG* (ie, politically inexperienced) base of support they wanted - and they wanted to put them at war with the PUMA crowd (remember *those* cats? The pantsuit army? “Party Unity, My Ass!” was the HRC pushback against *OBAMA* during his first campaign)

And they DID set about creating the kind of blood-feud in ‘16 that lasted until TODAY...and shows NO signs of slacking. PUMA forever, baby! The earth has been pretty much salted between Sanders and every other Dem candidate, and it was the same trick GOP used on Clinton herself for so many years - and effectively, too. Clinton was able to overcome it with her crew, who by the time Benghazi came around had become hardened against any form of attack against her...and when outrageous shit started to pass around about “Bernie bros”, and disrespect to HRC, to non-white populations, and ‘just another self-centered clueless white guy’, the PUMA crew frankly welcomed the chance to really tear into some “real” adversaries. Did any Sanders supporters go “Bernie or burn”? Yes, sadly, some did...but there was true passion, true idealism, true hope for each candidate, so the Russians undertook to make sure the two crews *NEVER* united...and that fire still burns: I can still hear the fake shit flying back and forth. There’s hardly even a day that goes by, when I *don’t* hear the poison being spouted by an otherwise sane, intelligent, trustworthy HRC supporter...and it’s the SAME poison, the same weapons from ‘16 still being rolled out against Sanders, and mostly against his made-up Russian zombie “supporters”.

While I like to agree with you, I don't think we have anything to show that there was not anything but clear support for Trump and Sanders from the Russian military.

Why? I agree that it is because he is a great place holder for those people who would not vote for a Trump, further dividing up the electorate. I would argue that the Russians nudged a lot of people into Bernie's camp because he was divisive. The same attack that led to the Republican base moving to Trump, was going on as well with the 'left'.

His campaign advocates were especially vocal about issues that would have made the majority of American voters wonder if they wouldn't be better off with Trump, and still are, creating great click bait that will harden the people who are all in on the Bern rhetoric and giving something for the 'right' to point at to scare people into believing the propaganda.

I would tend to agree that it not being that Bernie was in on the scam like Trump has been shown to have been. But something you did not mention that I brought up was his almost third party run against Obama in 2012. Which was the same time that Trump was also thinking about running. If Bernie ran, I believe that Trump would have also ran. Not saying there was collusion, but it stinks and is something that was worrying enough that I am very happy that we won't ever have to find out.

I think that understanding how the trolling aspect of the Russian attack helps in what you are talking about with the 'fake shit flying back and forth', because I don't see Trump supporters and Bernie supporters as not falling for the same techniques of getting trolled on ever side of the issues radicalizing and hardening their information bubbles. Toss in bullshit propaganda websites like 'The Hill' and 'the Nation' and you have everything to conduct the same attack from the left.

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Bagginski · Dec 3, 2020

hanimmal said:
While I like to agree with you, I don't think we have anything to show that there was not anything but clear support for Trump and Sanders from the Russian military.

Why? I agree that it is because he is a great place holder for those people who would not vote for a Trump, further dividing up the electorate. I would argue that the Russians nudged a lot of people into Bernie's camp because he was divisive. The same attack that led to the Republican base moving to Trump, was going on as well with the 'left'.

His campaign advocates were especially vocal about issues that would have made the majority of American voters wonder if they wouldn't be better off with Trump, and still are, creating great click bait that will harden the people who are all in on the Bern rhetoric and giving something for the 'right' to point at to scare people into believing the propaganda.

I would tend to agree that it not being that Bernie was in on the scam like Trump has been shown to have been. But something you did not mention that I brought up was his almost third party run against Obama in 2012. Which was the same time that Trump was also thinking about running. If Bernie ran, I believe that Trump would have also ran. Not saying there was collusion, but it stinks and is something that was worrying enough that I am very happy that we won't ever have to find out.

I think that understanding how the trolling aspect of the Russian attack helps in what you are talking about with the 'fake shit flying back and forth', because I don't see Trump supporters and Bernie supporters as not falling for the same techniques of getting trolled on ever side of the issues radicalizing and hardening their information bubbles. Toss in bullshit propaganda websites like 'The Hill' and 'the Nation' and you have everything to conduct the same attack from the left.

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I apologize for using “Russia” as an umbrella; I confess I wanted to keep it simple. At the same time, whether it was explicitly Russian policy to “support” Sanders, there were many cooks involved in the toxic stew being dished out at the time, and which cook dished which ladle of misinformation is slightly less important (to me) than the toxicity and the ubiquity.

I have great respect for your research, and I’ve learned considerable from your posts, so I take you statement of Russian support for Sanders as stated...in which case, their ‘support’ was weak sauce indeed. If it did more than underscore the idea that Sanders is “really a communist’ in the wrong-wing ‘mind’, I’ve yet to see it. The deliberate division sown between HRC supporters and Sanders supporters is still obvious, still toxic, still furious, whoever is due “credit” for it. The wedge driven between the two camps will not be removed within the political lifetimes of Sanders or Clinton: the core of it is that Sanders embraced the “Bernie bros”, voted for Trump, and savaged Clinton throughout the campaign; that Sanders and his supporters are indifferent at best toward women, racial and ethnic minorities - and hostile toward them at best.

Even the most extreme “Bernie bro” of my acquaintance is strong in support of women’s issues and women candidates - strong in support for minority issues, the welfare of minority communities, and both candidates of color and organizers of color, strong in opposition to Trump during and after the election: they feel stabbed, dry-gulched, attacked and betrayed for having been moved by Sanders in the first place, treated as scapegoats and sacrificial victims for HRC’s loss and Trump’s win. They don’t appreciate it, they resent it...but no amount of letting it go and attempting to bridge the gap to HRC’s crew has lessened the hostility - or the sense of futility in even trying.

So, not a Russian operation, but very much in kind with what they *and others* were doing, and with deep and lasting wounds, as we’re seeing begin to play out between the progressive Dems and the professional Dems.

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