an alternative view of libertarianism

Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
Your closing line sums it all up: "I want to be a human being who associates with those who wish to associate with me." Well, you don't get that luxury -- nobody does. You're a part of a society. That society includes lots of people you don't want to associate with, but must -- the illiterate single mom, the HIV-positive junkie, the man working two McJobs to feed his family, the homeless guy you ignore on your way to the office, the pregnant teenage girl, the illegal aliens you employ to keep labor costs down -- you are not an island, Mr. Libertarian, and you need us and government far more than we need you.
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Liberty is the freedom to choose where one prefers to be in any society. I have as much luxury as I am willing to work for and I don't snivel about what I don't have. I am not forced to associate with anyone I consider unsavory.

In your fantasy everyone deserves help except those who are willing to help themselves. In your fantasy, success should be punished.

Life is hard; it's harder if you're stupid. - John Wayne
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Let's examine your 'victims' of society:

The illiterate single mom: Who made this woman illiterate? Everyone who can read started out illiterate. Government funded public school is universal in the U.S. It is socialism-lite. American taxpayers pay the tab on an enormous public education budget. The answer is not more funding. The answer lies in wisely spending the tax revenue already set aside for public education. http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/06f33pub.pdf

Who made the choice to avoid birth control? Who made the decision not to get an abortion? Who decided not to put up the child for adoption? Who made the decision to keep a child they could not support? Planned Parenthood offices are all over the place and concentrated in high risk areas.

The HIV-positive junkie: Who gets infected with HIV in the US? Intravenous drug users, prostitutes and their customers, and men who have sex with men. All lifestyle choices resulting from the freedom to choose. Now each must live with the consequences of their choices - good or bad. Outside of Africa, heterosexual HIV transmission is virtually non-existent. Threat of world Aids pandemic among heterosexuals is over, report admits - The Independent

The man working two McJobs to feed his family: Why does a family man have two low paying jobs? Chances are he has a GED and has no marketable job skills. It is each person's responsibility to care for themselves and the family they choose to create.

The homeless guy you ignore on your way to the office: Urban outdoorsmen don't bother me a bit. My tax dollars provide homeless shelters throughout the city where I live. Bums simply choose not to use available services. It's more fun to panhandle and go get loaded. Choices.

The pregnant teenage girl: A minor teenage girl, pregnant or not, is the responsibility of her parents and the jug-head who chose to knock her up.

The illegal aliens you employ to keep labor costs down: Illegal aliens are criminals. Illegal aliens deserve to be treated like criminals. Illegal aliens invade this country and steal services which should be reserved explicitly for legal residents/citizens. The downward pressure they apply to wages steals money out of every worker's pocket. The lower one is on the economic ladder, the more one will be negatively affected by illegal alien labor. Illegal aliens steal social services. Illegal aliens steal public education. Illegal aliens steal emergency services. Who made the choice to sneak into this country like a thief? They do not all come here to work either. Otherwise please explain why so many illegal aliens are in U.S. prisons?

There is a vital and unambiguous place for government in Libertarian political philosophy. Using the Constitution as supreme law of the land, society would flourish. States which wanted to be nanny states could do so, thus attracting the element which seeks out that sort of government. The same principle applies to states which encourage liberty.
 
joepro

joepro

Well-Known Member
Johnnyorganic said:
Liberty is the freedom to choose where one prefers to be in any society. I have as much luxury as I am willing to work for and I don't snivel about what I don't have. I am not forced to associate with anyone I consider unsavory.

In your fantasy everyone deserves help except those who are willing to help themselves. In your fantasy, success should be punished.

Let's examine your 'victims' of society:

The illiterate single mom: Who made this woman illiterate? Everyone who can read started out illiterate. Government funded public school is universal in the U.S. It is socialism-lite. American taxpayers pay the tab on an enormous public education budget. The answer is not more funding. The answer lies in wisely spending the tax revenue already set aside for public education. http://www2.census.gov/govs/school/06f33pub.pdf

Who made the choice to avoid birth control? Who made the decision not to get an abortion? Who decided not to put up the child for adoption? Who made the decision to keep a child they could not support? Planned Parenthood offices are all over the place and concentrated in high risk areas.

The HIV-positive junkie: Who gets infected with HIV in the US? Intravenous drug users, prostitutes and their customers, and men who have sex with men. All lifestyle choices resulting from the freedom to choose. Now each must live with the consequences of their choices - good or bad. Outside of Africa, heterosexual HIV transmission is virtually non-existent. Threat of world Aids pandemic among heterosexuals is over, report admits - The Independent

The man working two McJobs to feed his family: Why does a family man have two low paying jobs? Chances are he has a GED and has no marketable job skills. It is each person's responsibility to care for themselves and the family they choose to create.

The homeless guy you ignore on your way to the office: Urban outdoorsmen don't bother me a bit. My tax dollars provide homeless shelters throughout the city where I live. Bums simply choose not to use available services. It's more fun to panhandle and go get loaded. Choices.

The pregnant teenage girl: A minor teenage girl, pregnant or not, is the responsibility of her parents and the jug-head who chose to knock her up.

The illegal aliens you employ to keep labor costs down: Illegal aliens are criminals. Illegal aliens deserve to be treated like criminals. Illegal aliens invade this country and steal services which should be reserved explicitly for legal residents/citizens. The downward pressure they apply to wages steals money out of every worker's pocket. The lower one is on the economic ladder, the more one will be negatively affected by illegal alien labor. Illegal aliens steal social services. Illegal aliens steal public education. Illegal aliens steal emergency services. Who made the choice to sneak into this country like a thief? They do not all come here to work either. Otherwise please explain why so many illegal aliens are in U.S. prisons?

There is a vital and unambiguous place for government in Libertarian political philosophy. Using the Constitution as supreme law of the land, society would flourish. States which wanted to be nanny states could do so, thus attracting the element which seeks out that sort of government. The same principle applies to states which encourage liberty.
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When did the klan rally start?..and without me!? :mrgreen:
great points on illegals dude!
 
VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
No, you refraind from using the words (Fuck You) but the intent was the same.
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You take my disagreements with as an implied "fuck you"? Is that how you interpret opposing arguments? Wow...OK. I disagree with many people on a daily basis and I never even thought to consider that I was implying "fuck you" to them. On the flip side, I never have thought that someone who disagrees w/ me was telling me "fuck you" either.
 
VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
No Dave I didn't miss those points and I am remiss in not applauding you, that was some right stuff to do.
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I appreciate you recognizing that Med, but I'm only trying to show you "another" angle in this. It would've been easy for me to apply for foster parent status. I even had a director of a rehab facility (Sierra Recovery Center)tell me that she'd help me apply for it! As a Libertarian, I firmly believe in "self determination". I don't need the government to help me do "the right thing". In fact, I abhor that ideology. I just went and did it.

medicineman said:
In the end it is a very worthwhile endeavor as you always feel better about yourself when you give.
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I suppose you're right. I sacrificed a lot and it was very trying at times both financially and emotionally. There was a time in '03 when I couldn't pay the gas and had it shut off while I was out of town. I had to scramble furiously to scrounge up the money to get it restored. I had to even get physical with some of these kids to straighten them out. I think the best I can hope for is that after I'm dead there'll be at least a few men and women who will tell their children "when I was young and in trouble, there was this guy that helped me out...". That's a legacy I would like.
 
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VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
So go on with your braggadocio, you aren't fooling me, you got fucking lucky.
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How so? when I was an infant my father picked crops in the field along with the Mexicans because he barely had a 4th grade reading level and no skills. Show me a "white" American who would do that to put food on the table. What did your father do for a living while you were a child? It wasn't until he landed a job at Peterbilt that we had a steady income. My mother related to me a story one time where she opened the front door to our duplex and there was a box of groceries that someone had left. She told me she cried. Why did she cry? She was embarassed, that's why. I grew up in a town where those on welfare and AFDC ate better than my family.

Granted my grandmother paid to send me to a good school (only because my parents couldn't afford it) but that wasn't until the beginning of my Junior year of high school. Do keep in mind that the money my Grandmother had, she earned. She raised a family of three children by herself and never got one penny from the government.

After the military I landed a job w/ Friden Alcatel as a simple Bench Technician and through hard work, raising a family, and night classes in college I worked my way up into IT and software engineering and I never looked back.

You may say I got lucky, but I came from a poor working class family and I now care for my father who doesn't have a pot to piss in. I've never seen an inheritance, or a trust, or anything like that for that matter. Again, you say I got lucky...I choose to call it self determination.
 
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VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
BTW. I do not wish to associate with you. Your holier that thou attitude exudes elitism.
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This isn't the first time you've called me an elitist. I trust you're not implying that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I've seen both sides Med. Growing up in the barrio, many of my neighbors were farm workers. Jerry Rodriguez was a crew foreman. Mr. Lozano ran a tractor.

It wasn't until I started going to Moreau High School (the private Catholic school) that I witnessed..."the other side". My best friend Dave had a father who was the Director of Pharmacology for Mt. Eden Hospital in Castro Valley. I rubbed shoulders with kids who parents were wealthy....I was not. I attended parties on estates. I had 1100sq ft of concrete floors in the barrio.

I haven't forgotten my roots and that's why I work so damn hard to provide for my loved ones. I associate with the working man because that's what I am and that's where I am from. I just despise those that feel that they should be entitled. I earned what I've got and they should as well. The money I earn is my own and what I choose to do that money is my own business.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
BTW. I do not wish to associate with you. Your holier that thou attitude exudes elitism.
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Dave, that's Med's way of saying he will no longer engage you because he is weary of getting his ass kicked in. When he does not respond to your points, he concedes defeat.
 
undertheice

undertheice

Well-Known Member
VTXDave said:
I haven't forgotten my roots and that's why I work so damn hard to provide for my loved ones....
....The money I earn is my own and what I choose to do that money is my own business.
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success in any form merely frustrates and aggravates the left. those who refuse to complain about the unfairness of their lot are seen as deluded slaves to the upper class. should you attain the middle class or above, coming from low means should entitle them to take the credit for your advancement. success through honest work shows the lie behind the cult of entitlement.

in the left's wet dream all assets belong to the state.
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
The libertarian will also argue that in their science-fiction universe, anyone is free to compete and trade and leverage their skills, work, and talent to become rich. Absolutely -- anyone can, but not everyone can. Some people will be born unskilled, untalented, handicapped, or just not very bright, or will become sick, injured, discriminated against, or suffer hardships and bad luck beyond their control. No matter how hard they work, they cannot win. Not everyone can be a winner in the capitalism game. So the question is: how good should the winners have it and how badly should the losers have it? As others have explained, in such a system, eventually the winners game the system to the point where only other winners can compete and losers have no shot. Eventually the best winners collude to prevent competition among themselves. Eventually the losers owe their soul to the company store.
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Everyone is born unskilled and untalented. No so bright people get to work hard and take their shot just like the rest of us.

The sick and injured should be attended to. Disabled persons deserve assistance. Help should be available to those with no choices. However, under the current system, our kindness is misinterpreted as weakness by parasites. It is the responsibility of government to protect society from those who would exploit our principles. I am not sure my exact position on universal health care. Both sides in the debate have good points to consider. But I am sure that any government services be reserved, without exception, for citizens and LEGAL residents.

Discriminated against like affirmative action discriminates against the more qualified? Or are you referring to the discrimination stemming from a protected class finding itself in the majority in the workplace, or any place for that matter. Their idea of diversity is 'It is our turn." The civil rights act passed over four decades ago. Barak Hussein Obama is a serious contender to be President of the United States. Now that there is a black presidential nominee (possibly a female presidential candidate if Hillary's machinations come to fruition and B. H. Obama screws the political pooch before the delegates are seated in Denver), the issue of civil rights has been resolved.

Everyone must deal with hardships no matter their station in life. Adversity and misfortune is universal. Every able-bodied person has the freedom to overcome it if they have the will. Not everyone can be a winner in any game. Nobody has a perfect existence. Winners deserve to benefit from their hard work and sound choices. Losers make ill-advised choices which keep them losers.

Leftist love to point to New Orleans as an example of government indifference, especially the federal government. For me it is an example of the inherent danger of government dependence. Depend on yourself, heed the warnings, act on those warnings and you and yours are out of harms way when the levees break. Wait for the government to come to your aid and you will end up on the roof of your home desperately awaiting rescue hoping the predators and looters don't find you before the rescue teams arrive.

Why hasn't Mississippi had the same problems? After all; it took a direct hit. Everything was flattened. Could it be the competent response of the state and local governments? Katrina bypassed New Orleans, a major metropolitan area BELOW sea level. Civil engineers predicted a disaster in New Orleans for DECADES prior to Katrina. National Geographic magazine featured a cover story on the danger facing New Orleans BEFORE the 2005 hurricane season began. The inherent peril of living in New Orleans was not a secret.

Katrina made the word 'refugee' a dirty word. Now, three years later, these 'refugees' are criminals and con artists still living in FEMA trailers and government funded hotel rooms. THREE FUCKING YEARS! Some receiving FEMA assistance not willing to help themselves - NBC 15 Online

In every society there is a group of people who will always take the path of least resistance. Meaning that a certain percentage of society will simply not work if there is another option for them to have their needs met. In Socialist countries like France, that population of parasites is much higher. Generous social programs are directly correlated to the size of this voluntarily non-productive segment of any population. Here's a question for you Medicineman. What are you prepared to tolerate in order to protect society from these leeches? Answer that question to my satisfaction and I will consider your suggestion we look after the blessed, disadvantaged poor.

The poor in the U.S. live like royalty compared to the poor in the rest of the world. They are obese thanks to our bounty. They have cell phones, satellite television on hi-def sets and home theater systems. They have automobiles. They get their nails done. Many have computers complete with high-speed internet access. Some of them are even homeowners. I am expected to wail and gnash my teeth for them, too?

If you would just be honest we could have a frank and open discussion about societies ills. But, your true goal of all of this free-love fascism is income redistribution. It is as clear as day, even to an 'idiot' like me.
From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need. - Karl Marx.
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ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
Some people succeed because they are destined to. Most people succeed because they are determined to.

Vi
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
Progressive taxation and limited capitalistic socialism is the only workable solution for a successful and vibrant democratic economy. It's what we have had in place since the New Deal, and it took the United States from the failed, second-rate, Depression-era economy caused by laissez-faire capitalism of the robber barons to being the dominant world superpower with the greatest standard of living ever achieved in human history. Why would libertarians want to mess with success, just to implement a science-fiction philosophy that's been shown to cause greater overall human misery, all because they feel that they are not quite rich enough? How many 17-foot home theaters do they need before they figure that even a lazy, shiftless, parasite on society (otherwise known as a "human") deserves better than sleeping in the street, eating from the garbage, and suffering from easily treatable medical ailments?
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Progressive taxation is a cancer on a free society meant to punish incentive and hard work. Income redistribution, plain and simple. 'Limited capitalism socialism' is nothing more than fascism with a Socialist flavor. Socialism robs incentive thus causing far more problems than it solves. It has already been established that President Frankin D. Roosevelt's domestic policies in the wake of the Great Depression were inspired by European fascism. The New Deal only addressed the symptoms. It did not provide the cure. World War II ended the great depression.

If the country is in such great shape with such a high standard of living why are you so desperate to change it? Libertarians want the freedom to succeed or fail. What is so abominable about the pursuit of life, liberty, and property? Why is it that those who oppose seizure of their property are greedy? Would not the greedy be the person trying to wrest that property away, by government seizure, only to reward sloth in exchange for political power?
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
VTXDave said:
This isn't the first time you've called me an elitist. I trust you're not implying that I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I've seen both sides Med. Growing up in the barrio, many of my neighbors were farm workers. Jerry Rodriguez was a crew foreman. Mr. Lozano ran a tractor.

It wasn't until I started going to Moreau High School (the private Catholic school) that I witnessed..."the other side". My best friend Dave had a father who was the Director of Pharmacology for Mt. Eden Hospital in Castro Valley. I rubbed shoulders with kids who parents were wealthy....I was not. I attended parties on estates. I had 1100sq ft of concrete floors in the barrio.

I haven't forgotten my roots and that's why I work so damn hard to provide for my loved ones. I associate with the working man because that's what I am and that's where I am from. I just despise those that feel that they should be entitled. I earned what I've got and they should as well. The money I earn is my own and what I choose to do that money is my own business.
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Actually, we have similar backgrounds up to the point of schooling. My schooling was not funded by anyone except a pittance from Uncle Sam after my stint in the military, by that time, I had a wife and a couple of wee ones. I worked two jobs and went to night school, JC for 6 years, just to get 2 years of college, That was a tough road to hoe. I climbed Poles for a utility company and worked high voltage in the day job, then worked weekends in a gas station while going three nights a week to JC. So, you can see that though we went different paths, I still did not get anything handed to me. It was by the sweat of my brow that I got to my retirement in one piece and I really don't appreciate the welfare raping lazy asshole persona draped on me by some of the rather boisterous dingbats on this site, Not you Dave, but you know of whom I speak
 
joepro

joepro

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
It was by the sweat of my brow that I got to my retirement in one piece and I really don't appreciate the welfare raping lazy asshole persona draped on me by some of the rather boisterous dingbats on this site, Not you Dave, but you know of whom I speak
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Your're right, Med......you have paid taxes your whole life(alot longer then I) and served this country(unlike myself).
I apologize for my postings, where I've implied such a persona that you speak of....Things get heated and it's only human to point a finger.
your're a good guy,Med. I've always enjoyed reading your postings.

cough*Mccain*cough and Med,have alot in comon.
I know Med,it's like sticking a fork in your eye.
 
ViRedd

ViRedd

New Member
medicineman said:
Actually, we have similar backgrounds up to the point of schooling. My schooling was not funded by anyone except a pittance from Uncle Sam after my stint in the military, by that time, I had a wife and a couple of wee ones. I worked two jobs and went to night school, JC for 6 years, just to get 2 years of college, That was a tough road to hoe. I climbed Poles for a utility company and worked high voltage in the day job, then worked weekends in a gas station while going three nights a week to JC. So, you can see that though we went different paths, I still did not get anything handed to me. It was by the sweat of my brow that I got to my retirement in one piece and I really don't appreciate the welfare raping lazy asshole persona draped on me by some of the rather boisterous dingbats on this site, Not you Dave, but you know of whom I speak
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Not funded by anyone? So, I suppose "Uncle Sam" just made the money for your G.I. Bill education appear from nowhere, right? Fuck yeah, Med ... the taxpayer's of this country, in the minds of totalitarians, are just simply "nobody." :blsmoke:

Vi
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
OK, discuss. That's all I have to say about that. Since the Libertarian Party has no chance in hell of winning any election that will effect me directly, and since the hard right-wing of the Bushites is going down faster than Paris Hilton in a night-vision home video, I really don't worry about them very much.
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A good deal of your precious 'treatise' has been Republican bashing. You claim the Libertarian party has no chance of winning. For now you are probably right. But history is a long continuous thread, sometimes changing so gradually we scarcely notice. That's how we lost our republic - gradually.

Consider this: who do you hold responsible for the election of President G.W. Bush? How about the Green party? It tickles me to no end to realize that the momentum I helped generate in 1996 led to a Green Party surge as a repudiation of that sociopath Bill Clinton, and his surrogate, Vice-President Al Gore in 2000. I voted for Harry Browne, thus diluting votes for G. W. Bush. It was the two parties, Green and Libertarian, that caused the election fiasco of 2000.

Ross Perot did the same thing to President George H. W. Bush running as an Independent in 1992. The 'great sucking sound' was 18.9% of the popular vote, most of which would have gone to President Bush. Combine that with Bush's 'Read my lips" betrayal. Even so, Bill Clinton could not even manage a majority with 49.2%.

I know why you are so hostile to Libertarians specifically, and third parties in general. We are the spoilers. When the two major parties stray away from freedom, we punish them with the most powerful weapon we possess - the vote. We will not blindly support a party, as so many American voters tend to do. We hold both parties accountable and you can't stand it. You should not hate us, but you should fear us and respect our views. We may disagree with you, but we would never deny you those beliefs.

For someone who doesn't worry much about 'hard right-wing Bushites,' you sure do whine about them enough. From your vitriolic ravings, I would estimate they worry you quite a bit.

Your 'treatise' is nothing more than a rambling diatribe. Where is sourcing for any of your points? All you offer is your demented opinion casting aspersions on the character of your adversaries. You make these crazy allegations with no proof. 'Where's the Beef', Med? Remember that? It applies here just as it did in 1984. Where's the FUCKING beef? <crickets chirping>

medicineman said:
It just seems that this site is filled with these fantasy characters, and I may add character assassins.
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For the complete response to this uproariously funny statement, please go here. https://www.rollitup.org/politics/71725-go-20.html
 
Johnnyorganic

Johnnyorganic

Well-Known Member
ViRedd said:
Not funded by anyone? So, I suppose "Uncle Sam" just made the money for your G.I. Bill education appear from nowhere, right? Fuck yeah, Med ... the taxpayer's of this country, in the minds of totalitarians, are just simply "nobody." :blsmoke:

Vi
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He must have attended PRIVATE schools exclusively. Public education and most formal education is publicly funded or heavily subsidized by the taxpayers.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
ViRedd said:
Not funded by anyone? So, I suppose "Uncle Sam" just made the money for your G.I. Bill education appear from nowhere, right? Fuck yeah, Med ... the taxpayer's of this country, in the minds of totalitarians, are just simply "nobody." :blsmoke:

Vi
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Can't let it go. can you?
 
VTXDave

VTXDave

Well-Known Member
medicineman said:
Actually, we have similar backgrounds up to the point of schooling. My schooling was not funded by anyone except a pittance from Uncle Sam after my stint in the military, by that time, I had a wife and a couple of wee ones. I worked two jobs and went to night school, JC for 6 years, just to get 2 years of college, That was a tough road to hoe.
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As did I Med. While attending college, I worked a full time job and raised a son. My classes were all night school. I didn't work two jobs per se, but I did a lot of consulting as I was in the computer field. If our backgrounds are so similar as well as some of our viewpoints, why do you consistently tell me to "fuck off" and call me an "elitist"?
 
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