America's "gun problem"

CC Dobbs said:

Are you asking me to believe that the authors of the Constitution named Libya, Vietnam and Syria as reasons that we should have the right to have any weapons that we want? Who is the enemy that the authors of the U.S. Constitution identified?

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"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Whiteboy420 said:

Do you forget that the us military is made up of american people how many do you think are willing to kill there own people you are so sad do you have nothing better to do.

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I believe the correct way to state that is: the U.S. military is composed of people who are American citizens. That question is not as simple as you would like it to be.

I began to write a response but after reviewing your other posts I decided that you wouldn't understand it anyway so why bother. Actually I am not sad, I'm just a little hung over and I can think of nothing I would better like to do than fuck with dumbshits like you.

desert dude said:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

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So does this mean that you are keeping guns to protect yourself from an overly enthusiastic government. I would really appreciate you explaining your beliefs in your own words. Too often people hold up some quote to explain their point. The quote does not even come close to answering the question: Who are your guns protecting you from? If you intend to obey the quote you have provided then you don't need guns to do it. The change mentioned could happen without a shot being fired.

desert dude said:

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

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Nothing in this quote calls for guns to be drawn either. Who are your guns protecting you from?

CC Dobbs said:

So does this mean that you are keeping guns to protect yourself from an overly enthusiastic government. I would really appreciate you explaining your beliefs in your own words. Too often people hold up some quote to explain their point. The quote does not even come close to answering the question: Who are your guns protecting you from? If you intend to obey the quote you have provided then you don't need guns to do it. The change mentioned could happen without a shot being fired.

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The quotes provided were in answer to your question about the motivation of the authors of the second amendment. It is painfully clear, even to the intentionally obtuse, the motivation for 2A, and who the potential enemies are.

"The change mentioned could happen without a shot being fired."
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Tell me how the world would be better without guns.

CC Dobbs said:

Nothing in this quote calls for guns to be drawn either. Who are your guns protecting you from?

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Rule by foolish cowards ignorant of history.

desert dude said:

The quotes provided were in answer to your question about the motivation of the authors of the second amendment. It is painfully clear, even to the intentionally obtuse, the motivation for 2A, and who the potential enemies are.

"The change mentioned could happen without a shot being fired."
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Tell me how the world would be better without guns.

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You are particularly good at putting words into my mouth and very bad at expressing you own ideas. I don't know how the world would be better without guns 'cause I never said it. I'm not trying to take away your guns so quit with that shit already. Shall I repeat it again so that there will be no further confusion on your part:I am not trying to take away your guns. You seem to feel that the quotes that you are providing are reinforcing your point but you don't seem to realize that you haven't made a point yet just a bunch of butt-hurt explainations about how I am wrong and I don't understand your point.

Who are your guns protecting you from? Is it an out of control government? Is it an invading force of bad guys? Is it the crazy guy down the street? Rogue aliens from Zantho? Please no more quotes as explanations.

Just for fun would you translate the quotes you provided into modern, common speech for me. I'm really curious what they mean to you, in your own words.

Outlaw all guns, and it will make it easier for me to break in your homes, tie you up, and rape your wife and daughters and make you watch, then you can wonder if owning a gun or not would have made any difference..
Whats your addresses.... See ya soon..

CC Dobbs said:

You are particularly good at putting words into my mouth and very bad at expressing you own ideas. I don't know how the world would be better without guns 'cause I never said it. I'm not trying to take away your guns so quit with that shit already. Shall I repeat it again so that there will be no further confusion on your part:I am not trying to take away your guns. You seem to feel that the quotes that you are providing are reinforcing your point but you don't seem to realize that you haven't made a point yet just a bunch of butt-hurt explainations about how I am wrong and I don't understand your point.

Who are your guns protecting you from? Is it an out of control government? Is it an invading force of bad guys? Is it the crazy guy down the street? Rogue aliens from Zantho? Please no more quotes as explanations.

Just for fun would you translate the quotes you provided into modern, common speech for me. I'm really curious what they mean to you, in your own words.

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All of the above.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

There is absolutely no translation necessary. That sentence is as clear today as it was when it was written late in the eighteenth century.I understand it.

Just for fun, how about you translate it into modern prog-speak.

desert dude said:

Rule by foolish cowards ignorant of history.

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That is close but still lacking an attachment to reality. It almost points to a culprit but is vague enough that you don't pin it down to a particular boogie-man. We already have the most powerful tool that any society has ever had and we don't wield it responsably. The foolish cowards that you fear are in place because we chose them to rule. The only real weapon against them is the vote to banish them. We have no chance to over through the U.S. Government by force but we can cause change with our voice. We have forgotten how powerful this tool is.

seen it on the internets so its gotta be true

CC Dobbs said:

That is close but still lacking an attachment to reality. It almost points to a culprit but is vague enough that you don't pin it down to a particular boogie-man. We already have the most powerful tool that any society has ever had and we don't wield it responsably. The foolish cowards that you fear are in place because we chose them to rule. The only real weapon against them is the vote to banish them. We have no chance to over through the U.S. Government by force but we can cause change with our voice. We have forgotten how powerful this tool is.

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Dumb, dumb, dumb...

In the eighteenth century, the colonists tried persuasion. You really ought to read the declaration of independence. Written by the same revolutionaries who later penned the constitution, which ought to give even you some insight into the purpose and motivation of 2A.

desert dude said:

All of the above.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

There is absolutely no translation necessary. That sentence is as clear today as it was when it was written late in the eighteenth century.I understand it.

Just for fun, how about you translate it into modern prog-speak.

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All of the above = paranoia.

There is a need for translation because I don't understand what it means. It doesn't say anything about guns. So please translate it for me. You are up to bat and can hit a home run with this one. Put me in my place once and for all and tell me how that quote means you can have guns.

The problem with that is that votes don't seem to make a difference in this lesser of 2 evils system. And when you vote someone in we as americans have no control over what they do once they are in office. I vote for every single office all the way down to my city counsel. Our government is getting more and more over-bearing and corrupt day by day and unfortunately although I try to help this by my votes it doesn't stop it. We need our guns now more than ever.

CC Dobbs said:

All of the above = paranoia.

There is a need for translation because I don't understand what it means. It doesn't say anything about guns. So please translate it for me. You are up to bat and can hit a home run with this one. Put me in my place once and for all and tell me how that quote means you can have guns.

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You translate it. That ought to be interesting to read. You apparently don't know so I am going to tell you: that is a quote from the declaration of independence, which led directly to armed conflict with the world's super power at the time.

CC Dobbs said:

That is close but still lacking an attachment to reality. It almost points to a culprit but is vague enough that you don't pin it down to a particular boogie-man. We already have the most powerful tool that any society has ever had and we don't wield it responsably. The foolish cowards that you fear are in place because we chose them to rule. The only real weapon against them is the vote to banish them. We have no chance to over through the U.S. Government by force but we can cause change with our voice. We have forgotten how powerful this tool is.

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You mistake me if you think I was referring solely to our corrupt and inept politicians.

Gun Control in the 21st Century is by far the most irrelevant subject still beating in American Culture. The hole damn point to the second Amendment and the right to bear arms is to be able to OVERTHROW our Government if need be ( ahh not sure where those people are but we could have used that 20+yrs ago).

What good could any average citizen's right to bear arms do them against a Government that HAS NUCLEAR AND BIOCHEMICAL WEAPONS AND HAS USED THEM ON OTHER HUMAN BEING IN PAST HISTORY!

More often than not, its the sacrilegious value of the weapon that draws a desire to own. For others, its a device of empowerment which more often than not, leads to a violent gun fueled lunatic.

More so, the weapons that the average citizen has available are rubbish in comparison to the richer, bigger, and better weapons of the US Governments.

We know the Government does not respect its citizens. If it did, it would not have CRIMINALIZED MILLIONS OF ITS OWN CITIZENS OVER A NON-FATAL DRUG!

I am not a betting man, but if I was, I would side with the US Government. There is not a chance in the darkest depths of hell that the US Citizen body can over throw its Government at this point in history. Not as long as they own hundreds of Nuclear Arms and Thousands of Bio-Chemical Weapons!

Been reading through some of the back and forth. I'll add .02. I believe people have a right to be free. I believe people have a right to defend themselves. They have a right to protect themselves and their family. This defense/protection is against any person/entity that threatens or attempts to harm or deprive them of their freedom, life, property. I'm stating people have these rights, birth rights if you will, and they are unalienable. If this premise is accepted, that we a have a birth right to life, freedom, and possessions, than who or what has the right to deprive another of their ability to defend and protect their self and family? For what reason?
We as society do deny people the ability to exercise these rights. Violent felons who've demonstrated they abuse the right and use it to do harm, they get incarcerated.
I'm asking this in regards to people who aren't criminals nor psychologically unfit.
I'm curious to hear a legitimate argument that espouses denying someone the ability to defend them self.

desert dude said:

You translate it. That ought to be interesting to read. You apparently don't know so I am going to tell you: that is a quote from the declaration of independence, which led directly to armed conflict with the world's super power at the time.

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I believe I stated clearly that I don't understand it and so therefor I'm unable to translate it. You chose to use it as proof of something and I'm asking for clarification. If you can't put it into common speech I understand. You're backing into a corner.

Hed Zeppelin said:

The problem with that is that votes don't seem to make a difference in this lesser of 2 evils system. And when you vote someone in we as americans have no control over what they do once they are in office. I vote for every single office all the way down to my city counsel. Our government is getting more and more over-bearing and corrupt day by day and unfortunately although I try to help this by my votes it doesn't stop it. We need our guns now more than ever.

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I'm disheartened about voting also. Doesn't seem to matter who or which party has the power. But, I still feel we retain control to some degree. With 3 bites at the apple. One to elect them to write laws. Two, when we serve on grand juries we can not indict folks "violating" bullshit laws. Third, jury duty, we can acquit those tried for violating laws that should never have been legislated.