45 days of vegging and still no roots?

Ngozer said:

Al,

Thanks for the tips. I used to have the plants in a 1 inch rw cube surrounded by the hydroton. Then when I moved them into 4 inch ones I had to cut the corners and I put the pellets in the sides to fill in the gap and on top to try to prevent any mold from forming at the base of the stem. I also have some on the bottom to keep the rw at the same level as the rim of the net pot.

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Algae will not form on your rockwool top surface if it were not wet constantly. If you water from the bottom with a flood system, the media tops will stay dry. Pellets won't stop algae. Nutrient solution + light + algae spores (available pretty much everywhere on the planet) = green slime. If you can't keep it dry, block the light to it with a disc of pandafilm that has a hole cut for the stem in the middle and a slot to fit the disc over the media tops.

I didn't think that the rooting concentrate was a magic sauce, I had no idea what was wrong and just wanted to try something.

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Your hydro shop I'm sure was pleased to sell you something/ANYTHING to fix your problem. It doesn't sound like they were as ready to help you troubleshoot your conditions. No profit in that! Quite a lot of the 'magic sauces' on the shelf in a hydro shop are made mainly of water and profit and have funky labels promising all manner of things. The profit is squeezed out before you get the jug out of the shop... Most problems in a grow are related to process and procedure, not lack of a magic sauce cure. I laugh every time I see a bottle of 'stop wilt.' I cry when I see someone BUY that bottle. There goes a person whose flowering plants have root problems or they've got droopy clones, both usually caused by overwatering- and a bottle of sauce ain't gonna fix it.

I have tried to be more careful about when and how much to water, but I still feel like its a complete guess. For the last couple of days, instead of watering all plants at the same time, I has switched to daily for my two largest and every 3 for my smallest.

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You need to learn to water by the feel of the weight of the pot. You are looking to water when the pot 'feels light.' That specifically means that about half to 2/3 of the water stored in the media has been removed by the plant.

You can learn the feel with some degree of accuracy if you know the weight of the dry media. Saturate some dry rockwool media like you are presently using, let it drain a couple of minutes. Weigh it and subtract the dry wt from the wet wt. Since water weighs 1g per ml, if your calculated water weight is 2kg, you know there is 2L of water in the media. You'd water that media again when the water wt drops 750g-1kg.

Since you've transferred your small cubes into the 4" cubes, water them no more than 1x/day and don't expose rockwool to DWC mist. Treat the nutrient soln with 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days.

When your plants recover and drop some roots out of the bottom of the cubes. then they will be ready to go into a pot full of pellets. There should be no less than about 1" of pellets between DWC mist and the RW cube. A single layer of pellets is not sufficient. If necessary, get bigger netpots.

As for aerating my nute solution, do you have any tips for that? Should it be aerating 24/7?

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Yep!

Will that prevent any growth from popping up?

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Nope! If anything, it will speed pathogen growth. What's good for plants is also usually good for fungus & algae.

Last time I tried mixing up a 3 day supply, some goopy shit appeared after a couple days.

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That's because you're not using anything for pathogen control or what you are using isn't working. Treat the nutrient soln with 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. That will stop the goo. H2O2 will destroy dead organic matter and microbes, releasing oxygen in the process, right where you need it most, in the rootmass.

I reckon you'll get roots out of the bottoms of your 4" cubes in 7-10 days. I'd water them by dipping the bottom of the cube in a bucket of aerated nute soln, to mimic a flood system, until they have roots out of the bottoms of the cubes.

Al,

I originally went to the hydroshop to pick up some h202, but when I was talking to the employee about it, he said that the h202 would not be a good fit with my Fox Farms nutes. Is this true?

Also, I will try the dipping method. How long should I let the cube sit in the soln? Until it feels heavy enough? Should I see wet on the top of the cube?

Thanks for all your help.

Ngozer said:

Al,

I originally went to the hydroshop to pick up some h202, but when I was talking to the employee about it, he said that the h202 would not be a good fit with my Fox Farms nutes. Is this true?

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If Fox Farm nutes are organic based, he's right. H2O2 will break down organic nutes. You have a whole new set of problems if you insist on use of organic nutes. Standard nutes, made from things like ammonium nitrate as opposed to guano and compost 'tea,' are not affected by H2O2. It is infinitely easier to maintain an op running on regular nutes. Pathogen control in organic ops requires use of competing organisms as opposed to periodic dosing with H2O2.

Also, I will try the dipping method. How long should I let the cube sit in the soln? Until it feels heavy enough? Should I see wet on the top of the cube?

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Watering rockwool can be a bit tricky. Behaves a lot like a kitchen sponge. If it has been allowed to go completely dry, it will be somewhat water repellent. If there is some moisture remaining, it will pick up water readily. The amount of water in the material will affect how quickly it will pick up water. If your cube is slightly damp, dip for only a few seconds. You'll feel the cube lose buoyancy and get heavy very quickly. If the cube has been allowed to dry out too much, it will try to float. Trick is to not allow your cube to go so dry that it becomes water repellent.

If you see water wicked to the surface of the cube, it is saturated. RW needs to be damp but not saturated. You can remove a bit by shaking the cube with a snap of the wrist over your bucket.

Think 'damp' not wet or saturated. Water again when about half the water weight is gone. Try to avoid letting the cube go dead dry.

I know this sounds complex, but with some practise, you'll get the hang of it.

You're working with 4" cubes at the moment, but in future, I'd suggest you use only 40mm wrapped cubes, with a plan of later nesting them in pellets (once they've got roots out of the bottom of the cube) and watering them with your existing DWC arrangement.

I do think that a flood system with plants in (regular, solid wall) pots of an absorbent medium or pellets would serve you better in the end. DWC can be fiddly and I would not normally recommend it to a new grower, but since you have one set up, we'll see if we can make it work for you.

Thanks for all your help.

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No worries, hope we can make this sit up & bark for you.

hey lets start over with explaining this dwc. put your net pots in something like a rubbermaid tub with holes cut out. now hot glue 1-2 air stones hooked up to 1-2 tiny tiny 5 dollar petco air pumps down to the bottom of the rubbermaid container. now run your hoses up along the sides with optional hot glue to a point where you can drill a hole and feed them out above where water will ever bubble up to (very high bubbling believe it or not). now fill your make shift rubbermaid resevoir up until just below the netpots bottoms whereever they meet. (obviously the more water the less u need to dump and remix a batch of nute water (like every 2 weeks)).

2 pumps i like incase one breaks down.

keep light away from the water and even some even like keeping it off of the grow rocks and cubes. the extreme damp conditions make for rapid mold growth.

Al B. Fuct said:

If Fox Farm nutes are organic based, he's right. H2O2 will break down organic nutes. You have a whole new set of problems if you insist on use of organic nutes.

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Do you think I should ditch my Fox Farm nutes? It says they are organic on the cover. Any other nute you'd recommend instead?

Al B. Fuct said:

Think 'damp' not wet or saturated. Water again when about half the water weight is gone. Try to avoid letting the cube go dead dry.

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So am I just aiming to keep the amount of water @ between 50 and 100 percent?

Al B. Fuct said:

You're working with 4" cubes at the moment, but in future, I'd suggest you use only 40mm wrapped cubes, with a plan of later nesting them in pellets (once they've got roots out of the bottom of the cube) and watering them with your existing DWC arrangement.

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I originally started with 22mm cubes surrounded by pellets. I posted about my plants in another thread and a member recommended I transplant to 4 in cubes. Now I have 1 in cubes, 4 in cubes, and a bunch of pellets to play with.

Al B. Fuct said:

I do think that a flood system with plants in (regular, solid wall) pots of an absorbent medium or pellets would serve you better in the end.

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I was wondering if there is a significant yield difference in the type of hydro that is used? It seems like people imply that some are higher yielding, but I haven't found anything definitive.

Al B. Fuct said:

DWC can be fiddly and I would not normally recommend it to a new grower, but since you have one set up, we'll see if we can make it work for you.

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Well, what happened was the first grow journal that I read was a a drip/DWC operation. It was the one that inspired me to try growing, so I wanted to try to copy it. Sometimes I find myself regretting trying to be too ambitious.

LemonKush said:

hey lets start over with explaining this dwc. put your net pots in something like a rubbermaid tub with holes cut out. now hot glue 1-2 air stones hooked up to 1-2 tiny tiny 5 dollar petco air pumps down to the bottom of the rubbermaid container. now run your hoses up along the sides with optional hot glue to a point where you can drill a hole and feed them out above where water will ever bubble up to (very high bubbling believe it or not). now fill your make shift rubbermaid resevoir up until just below the netpots bottoms whereever they meet. (obviously the more water the less u need to dump and remix a batch of nute water (like every 2 weeks)).

2 pumps i like incase one breaks down.

keep light away from the water and even some even like keeping it off of the grow rocks and cubes. the extreme damp conditions make for rapid mold growth.

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My original setup was almost identical to what you have described. The only differences being that I used a 4 in flexi-airtube and a drip system.

Thanks again for all the wisdom you're imparting on me guys!

Ngozer said:

Do you think I should ditch my Fox Farm nutes? It says they are organic on the cover. Any other nute you'd recommend instead?

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Being in Australia, it's a little hard for me to make recommendations to you- I don't know what's on the shelf at your local shop. I use Canna nutes, a 2-part type, which is dead-easy to use. Whatever you get, try a 2-part 'standard' (non-organic) nute from a large maker.

Nutes are not complicated stuff; Jim's is as good as Joe's for the most part but large makers produce very large quantities at once, meaning there's less variation between jugs of goo.

So am I just aiming to keep the amount of water @ between 50 and 100 percent?

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Ideally, between 40-60%, if you can cut it that close.

I originally started with 22mm cubes surrounded by pellets.

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22mm cubes are generally too small. They tend to dry out too fast, particularly when they're kept on a heat mat in your clonebox (which they should be). You'll wind up watering 22mm cubes 3-4x/day, which is a pain. If the cubes are allowed to dry out too much, your clones may wilt or may need to be re-cut if the stem tip dries out.



40mm wrapped cubes are just right. With 40-60% of their water holding capacity, they will get a clone which has not yet set root through 24 hours. They'll give 12 hours water supply for a clone which has set root. Once they set root, their water uptake, as you might expect, goes up sharply.



As soon as clones have set a few good roots out of the cube, they're ready to be flowered.

I posted about my plants in another thread and a member recommended I transplant to 4 in cubes. Now I have 1 in cubes, 4 in cubes, and a bunch of pellets to play with.

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heh, you can live with the quiet satisfaction that you're keeping some nice Danish fellow at the Grodan factory in a good job.

Seriously, see about getting some 40mm (~1.5"), plastic wrapped cubes.

I was wondering if there is a significant yield difference in the type of hydro that is used? It seems like people imply that some are higher yielding, but I haven't found anything definitive.

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The most productive hydro systems are the ones which can get the most oxygen to the rootmass. The way to get the most O2 to the roots is by using either a very low absorption media (pots of pellets in a flood system that floods often) or systems which use no media at all (aero, DWC, SWC, NFT) and which provide oxygen through the watering system. All of these systems will produce similar yields, with similar speed.

Rockwool does not permit frequent introduction of freshly oxygenated nutes to the rootmass. Rockwool allows about the same amount of root oxygenation as soil and is broadly similarly productive. However, hydroponic nutrients are generally more bioavailable than organics in soil and thus will produce a bit more yield, somewhat more quickly than soil.

I used pots of rockwool floc for many years. Because I'm a stoned slacker, I wanted the ability to skip looking in on my op for a day if needed. RW holds a lot of water and provides that level of backup. I don't use pellets because they are heavy and hard to dispose of. I've recently switched to Fytocell, which is a bit like crumbled foam rubber. It has a 40% air content and thus can be flooded frequently, but not quite as often as pellets. I flood small plants in Fytocell 2x/day and large plants 3x/day. Fytocell does have some water storage capacity in case I get a slack attack. It does have a couple of drawbacks, though. Crumbs of Fytocell can fall out of the drain holes. The high air content means pots of Fytocell can float. So, I pack about 25-50mm of RW floc in the bottom of each pot before filling the remainder with Fytocell. This allows water to pass through to wet the Fytocell but keeps the crumbs in the pot. The RW holds a lot of water and so weights down the pots when wetted, preventing them from floating.

Well, what happened was the first grow journal that I read was a a drip/DWC operation. It was the one that inspired me to try growing, so I wanted to try to copy it. Sometimes I find myself regretting trying to be too ambitious.

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You were smart to look for a productive op to copy. However, I think the finer detail of the character of different media types escaped you. That's cool, we'll make this crop work and see about something more suitable for your next pass.

RW is not the preferred main medium for DWC or drip watering, as you have unfortunately found. Drip & DWC are intended to provide either frequent or constant watering of low-absorption media. However, the high water storage capacity of RW cubes and their compatibility with heat mats makes them ideal for starting clones.

Once there's roots out of the bottom of the RW cubes, they can be nested in pellets. If using a flood system, the cubes must be 1/2" above the flood level. If using a DWC, there must be at least 1" of pellets between the DWC mist and the RW. The idea is to dampen the pellets so the roots can find and knit into them. Once they are down into the pellets, the roots will enjoy frequent flooding or the constant mist from the DWC.

Alternatively, you could use Fytocell (if available - may not be easy to get in the US) or perlite, which behaves somewhat like Fytocell. A layer of packed RW floc in the bottom of the pots will keep perlite in the pots, same as with Fytocell.

In the short term, water your 4" blocks by dipping in a bucket of aerated nute soln (pretty weak now, maybe 800ppm) which gets treated with H2O2 every 3-4 days. The cubes probably won't need water every day. Don't saturate them, only dampen them. If they are saturated after watering, give them a bit of a shake over the bucket with a snap of the wrist to take out any excess water. Mr Whipple sez - 'Please don't squeeze the rockwool!' Crushes the material and removes what airspaces there are.

Thanks again for all the wisdom you're imparting on me guys!

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I saw you being led down the rosy garden path and couldn't just watch it happen. Happy to let you know what I know.

We'll make this work, please be as patient as you can.

With a DWC system you don't need rockwool, escpecially for cloning... Just a cutting, root hormone, net pot and hydroton.

Yes, you can bodge up your DWC to also do cloning, but you won't be using it for cloning while you have other plants in it. Clones need veg cycle lighting and no nutes while setting root.

any other fine advice for us?

dont pik on him Al it is obveus that smoketoke is a w33d b4R0n like meself and dezervs sum respek!

Stoney, you're right. Respeck. I'll pull me head in.

You don't need to use your normal veg/flowering area for clones. Don't know if you know this or not but clones don't take up nearly as much space as a full grown plant. Anyways, in this guys case, he did have DWC for his clones. I have no problems with my cloning techniques...

Al B. Fuct said:

Being in Australia, it's a little hard for me to make recommendations to you- I don't know what's on the shelf at your local shop. I use Canna nutes, a 2-part type, which is dead-easy to use. Whatever you get, try a 2-part 'standard' (non-organic) nute from a large maker.

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Okay, I will try to go to the hydroshop tomorrow. It's costing me a fortune re-buying all my stuff.

Al B. Fuct said:

Ideally, between 40-60%, if you can cut it that close.

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Heh, 40% to 60%? That's dangerous territory where I live. I should start thinking of good excuses for my boss as to why I need to keep leaving in the middle of the day.

Al B. Fuct said:

22mm cubes are generally too small. They tend to dry out too fast, particularly when they're kept on a heat mat in your clonebox (which they should be). You'll wind up watering 22mm cubes 3-4x/day, which is a pain. If the cubes are allowed to dry out too much, your clones may wilt or may need to be re-cut if the stem tip dries out.

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Wow, it feels like forever before I will get the pleasure of worrying about my clones wilting. LOL. By the way, how is it that you are watering your clones? Is there a flood system or are you hand watering?

Al B. Fuct said:

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Are you trying to make me jealous by showing me a picture of all your roots?! Damnit. It's working...

Al B. Fuct said:

The most productive hydro systems are the ones which can get the most oxygen to the rootmass. The way to get the most O2 to the roots is by using either a very low absorption media (pots of pellets in a flood system that floods often) or systems which use no media at all (aero, DWC, SWC, NFT) and which provide oxygen through the watering system. All of these systems will produce similar yields, with similar speed.

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How about the hempy bucket method? I've recently starting reading AZgrow's hempy bucket thread and it looks interesting. It looks pretty easy and the pictures looked good. Any thoughts?

Al B. Fuct said:

The high air content means pots of Fytocell can float. So, I pack about 25-50mm of RW floc in the bottom of each pot before filling the remainder with Fytocell. This allows water to pass through to wet the Fytocell but keeps the crumbs in the pot. The RW holds a lot of water and so weights down the pots when wetted, preventing them from floating.

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Are you using solid walled pots? Do you drill holes in it? How long is each flooding? Thanks.

Al B. Fuct said:

We'll make this work, please be as patient as you can.

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Will do.

Here's an update of my op:



My largest (8 inches) and smallest. Do you think there's any way I can save my smallest one?



My second and third largest. Number 2's leaves have uncurled a bit.

Here are some pix to give you a better idea of what I am working with:



My layers.



A close-up.



My bucket.

You are fine with what you have, you don't need to go buying a ton more stuff. Your first step should be covering your bucket so light can't get it. Light + Water = alge and other growth you don't want.

Hey Smokertoker,

I am planning to duct tape or paint it lightproof, but since I'm dumping the soln I haven't gotten around to it. I will definitely do that once I get a bonafide DWC working.

Thanks!

smokertoker said:

You don't need to use your normal veg/flowering area for clones.

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Nor should you. Cloneboxes are for clones, silly wabbit!

Don't know if you know this or not but clones don't take up nearly as much space as a full grown plant.

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Top info, Sherlock. Can't put a thing past you!

Anyways, in this guys case, he did have DWC for his clones.

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there's this guy who says his friend's uncle's brother in law once knew a guy who grew like POUNDAGE in an old refrigerator, Stoney told me.

I have no problems with my cloning techniques...

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I can't tell you how pleased I am to hear that. I really can't. I'm so thrilled I could hardly care.

Now, if you don't have anything constructive or relevant to add to this discussion- and it's blindingly obvious you don't, would you kindly fuck off, you know, just a little?

C'mon now guys... let's not forget what this is all really about: Helping out the shorties.

Exactly...
Al B. Fuct in the Ass.. Act like the way you grow is the only way to grow.

Ngozer said:

Okay, I will try to go to the hydroshop tomorrow. It's costing me a fortune re-buying all my stuff.

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Sorry to hear it. I hope like hell the op you were emulating wasn't drip and DWC feeding RW. That grower would have had no more luck with that arrangement than you have. Organic nutes are all well and good, but in the end, to use Cartman's phrase, they're a bit of tree-huggin' hippie crap... and make running an op more difficult, for no appreciable benefit. Remember, at the end of the day, that 'organic' doesn't mean 'better' or 'safer,' it just means 'sourced from biological materials.'.

Heh, 40% to 60%? That's dangerous territory where I live. I should start thinking of good excuses for my boss as to why I need to keep leaving in the middle of the day.

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Like I said, 40-60% of the water capacity would be ideal. As long as it is neither saturated nor dry as a dead dingo's donger, you're happening.

Wow, it feels like forever before I will get the pleasure of worrying about my clones wilting. LOL. By the way, how is it that you are watering your clones? Is there a flood system or are you hand watering?

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I hand water my clones. All details, including clone watering mgt is in here: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html I've changed that process since writing it; I no longer add weak nutes to clone watering soln.

Are you trying to make me jealous by showing me a picture of all your roots?! Damnit. It's working...

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Well, jealous, no, just trying to picture what should be happening when all is right.

How about the hempy bucket method? I've recently starting reading AZgrow's hempy bucket thread and it looks interesting. It looks pretty easy and the pictures looked good. Any thoughts?

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Hempy evangelists swear they do not rot roots, but that method does keep roots saturated without adding oxygenation, which is a recipe for root rot.



If you want a system that requires no pump and long intervals between maintenance, a wick system is a better choice.

Are you using solid walled pots? Do you drill holes in it? How long is each flooding? Thanks.

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Yep, I use just plain old black plastic 175mm x 175mm tall pots, with drain holes, as intended for soil. When I was stuffing them wth plain RW floc, I flooded these 1x/day at lights-on. With Fytocell and a small layer of floc on the bottoms, I flood plants in wk1-2 twice a day for about 3 mins (to the overflow then pumps shut off) and more advanced plants 3x/day.

Do you think there's any way I can save my smallest one?

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It doesn't look good... but you can try. Does it have any roots at all?

My second and third largest. Number 2's leaves have uncurled a bit.

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As they are able to make some roots, the new growth will sort out, but old damaged leaves probably won't recover. As long as the new growth comes good, you're laughing.

Here are some pix to give you a better idea of what I am working with:



My layers.

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If the RW as we see it through the netpot was exposed to mist from the DWC, that's enough to cause oversaturation of the RW.

My bucket.

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You'll want to cover that container with some panda film to stop light feeding algae spores which have landed in your yummy nutrient sauce.

Ngozer said:

I am planning to duct tape or paint it lightproof, [...] I will definitely do that once I get a bonafide DWC working.

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Duct tape and paint, even if black, can still allow an appreciable amount of light to get to the solution. 240 micron pandafilm blocks >99% of light, even from a 1000HPS.

smokertoker said:

Exactly...
Al B. Fuct in the Ass.. Act like the way you grow is the only way to grow.

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Not the only way, but a way that works. At least I'm not handing out patently bad information like this:

smokertoker said:

If the rockwool is touching the water it will suck up water as it needs to keep your plant watered, so you wont have to worry about hand watering. There really shouldn't be any difference between your hand watering and the DWC, at least while your roots are still in the cube.
I don't believe you were overwatering, as the rockwool prevents that. The rockwool cube should allow proper O2 for your roots.

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You would have had poor Ngozer chasing his tail until all his plants were dead with disinfo of this calibre of wrongability.

I don't have any time or patience for the blind who want to lead the inexperienced. You don't know what you're talking about, yet you want to TEACH.

Ngozer said:

C'mon now guys... let's not forget what this is all really about: Helping out the shorties.

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Yes- the operative word there is 'helping.'

If one does not have the knowledge to help, one should just keep well clear and observe. You're already having big problems; bad info from w33d b4R0ns isn't going to help you one bit.