45 days of vegging and still no roots?

[Ngozer]

I have 4 plants (Blue Australian) that I have had growing for over 45 days now and I have yet to see a single root poking out of my 4" meshpot.

They vary in sizes from the largest at 8 inches to the smallest at 4 inches.

I started them all in a drip/dwc system, but decided that simpler is better so I'm hand-feeding once every 2 days. They get about a 1/2 cup of 750 ppm nute solution (Fox Farm). They are in 1 in. rw cubes inside 4 in. rw cubes inside 4 in. meshpots.

From the other threads here, it looks like I should have a huge amount of roots, but I have none. Any ideas? Here are some pictures:



My largest.



Numero deuce. Stricken with a case of "The Claw."
Note: She looks better now that I feed her once every 3 days.



My long time smallest, newly rebounded.



My one time 3rd largest; recently lost the will to live. Seems to be forming some "claw"-like leaves on top.
Note: that picture is several days old. She looks even worse to me now. Leaves are even more drooped.



Here is a picture of the only roots I have seen, taken when I transplanted the 1 in. rw into 4 in. cubes.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[techhead420]

Water them way more often for starters. 1/2 cup every few days is simply not enough. Roots will not grow when they are dry and they are drying out when they poke out of the net pots.

Turn your dripper back on and that should solve the problem.

 

[Ngozer]

Hi techhead,

I was using my dripper for over 30 days and still couldn't get any roots.

I used to water them 4 times a day (dripper), but others were telling me they were over watered, so I switched to twice per day. After I started watering them twice, two of them started curling their leaves so I thought it was still over watering. That's when I switched to once/day (by hand). I never let the rw dry out and it is always moist to the touch. I usually check by dabbing them with a paper towel at least 2 -3 times/day.

How much do you think I should be watering them? Thanks.

 

[smokertoker]

You say simpiler is better but then you ditched the DWC to water by hand? Go back to the DWC, but your babies so the roots are at the bottom of the net pots then fill with hydroton. Fill your DWC just above the bottom of the net cups and give a fresh mix of nutrients. Within a week your plants should be doing much better.

 

[techhead420]

I agree with smokertoker, go back to DWC and keep things simple.

 

[NoDrama]

45 days , you should have 2 feet of roots hangin out the bottom bro.

 

[Ngozer]

Hey smokertoker,

I am not quite sure what you meant. I have them in 4 in. rockwool cubes surrounded by hydroton inside a 4 in. netpot and none of them have roots that are visible.

Do you want me to take them out of the rockwool and replace them in the netpot very close to the bottom? Like this?



I think my roots are still very small and my babies would need to be very close to the water for any kind of DWC to work. If I had roots I think I would have definitely stuck with the DWC, but I have zero roots showing from my netpots.

If you guys can help me understand what you want me to try, I will do it. I just want to save my babies.

Here's a link to my other thread for a more in-depth look into my growth thus far.

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/89582-how-am-i-doing-1st-3.html#post1217459

NoDrama: I hear ya bro. I have read through lots of journals and other people's roots look like they could strangle a elephant by the time they are 1 1/2 months old.

 

[smokertoker]

Exactly like what your picture shows. But if you have them already in the rockwool, don't worry about taking them out of the rockwool. Just get the dwc going again... What kind of lights are you using? From your last pic you can see unhealthy roots. Were you still using an airstone when that pic was taken? Try cuting your nutes down to about 500 and see what happens.

 

[ceerock]

Do you have water just sitting in the res ? if so is it high enough that it wets the hydroton ?

it might seem like over watering cause your nute solution is not oxygenated...
Does that make sense....?

your roots look rotted...
place an air stone in the res..

 

[Al B. Fuct]

What am I doing wrong?

Classic overwatering. Rockwool is highly absorbent and if kept saturated (as might happen when being drip fed or exposed to a mist from an aero/DWC system), all oxygen will be driven out of the material, causing poor root formation. Pic #5 shows the RW saturated with brown, dead roots. That's the problem.

Plants in either large blocks of rockwool or pots of RW floc as their primary medium should be watered from the bottom with a flood system, 1x/day only, and only if the plants are large/vigorous enough to remove a significant porportion of the stored water in 24h. Small plants won't take up much water; you should water RW when about half the water (by weight) stored in the material has been taken up by the plant. Very small or sick plants may not need watering but every second or third day.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the pellets on top of the RW. Wrong place for them. You can start plants in RW cubes and later nest the rooted cubes in plain pots of pellets which are watered by flood (or netpots of pellets watered by an aero/DWC mist), but the flood level should not touch the RW cube nor should RW be directly exposed to a constant mist from an aero or DWC system. Recipe for disaster, as you have found.

The reason for potting up in pellets is because roots in pellets can be flooded much more often than roots in RW, due to the low water absorbing capacity and large air spaces between pellets. Being able to flood frequently exposes the roots to more O2, but the medium used must support frequent flooding by being not terribly absorbtive.

Flooding RW while it is still saturated doesn't do much because it won't take in any freshly oxygenated solution, rather it will help hold the old O2 depleted water in the cube. The main way out of the cube for water is through the plant, but also via evaporation to a certain degree. With pellets, most of the water drains out when the flood cycle is finished, which also happens to draw in more O2.

When making the transition from a RW cube to pellets, the cube should be nested in pellets so that the cube is about 1/2" ABOVE the flood level. The roots will seek down into the damp pellets in a few days. You can handwater plants in RW cubes newly introduced to pellets, but water ONLY the pellets around the cube, not the cube itself.

To fix this, presuming a DWC op and netpots, you need a thick layer of pellets between the RW and the mist coming from the DWC. The pellets can be kept constantly dampened by the mist but the RW must NOT be directly exposed to the mist. Use 50% grade H2O2 in the nute soln at 1ml/L of solution, every 3-4 days. Your root development should sort out in 7-10 days.

 

[Ngozer]

Update: I hit up a local hydro shop and asked the employee about my lack of roots problem. He suggested I get some Dyna-Gro rooting concentrate. I got it and used some in my solution today. I hope it works.

Tokersmoker;

If I leave them in the rockwool, how do I feed them other than just hand watering them? Do you want me to have the water leaves touching the RW? I thought that was a very bad thing.



Yes, I used an airstone for the whole time I had them in my DWC. I am wondering though, isn't my hand watering like DWC until the roots reach the water? I don't understand how I can have a DWC if there are no roots to reach reservoir.

Right now, I am using a 105w 6500K CFL and a 125w 6400K CFL (true wattage) until they are done vegging. Then I have a 250w HPS for flowering.

I will switch to 500 PPM and see if that makes a difference.

Ceerock;

There is no water in the res. I am hand-watering to waste (I dump it out). If my water is not oxygenated enough, do I need to have the air pump in my solution right before I pour? I thought the pouring itself would be oxygenating enough.

That picture is from about 2 weeks ago when I had them in 1 in. rw cubes in a single 25 gallon rubbermaid DWC. Since then I have transplanted them to 4 inch cubes that I hand water.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Update: I hit up a local hydro shop and asked the employee about my lack of roots problem. He suggested I get some Dyna-Gro rooting concentrate. I got it and used some in my solution today. I hope it works.

A magic sauce is not going to fix this problem. Stopping the oversaturation of the rockwool will.

 

[smokertoker]

If the rockwool is touching the water it will suck up water as it needs to keep your plant watered, so you wont have to worry about hand watering. There really shouldn't be any difference between your hand watering and the DWC, at least while your roots are still in the cube.
I don't believe you were overwatering, as the rockwool prevents that. The rockwool cube should allow proper O2 for your roots.
I'm not sure what is taking your roots so long, but run with adding the Dyna-Gro to your nutes and hope for the best. You may want to get another additive like Diamond Nectar.
I use Dyna-Gro for the silicon and Diamond Nectar for some other mineral elements on top of my gereral 3 part nutes.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I don't believe you were overwatering, as the rockwool prevents that. The rockwool cube should allow proper O2 for your roots.

Are you kidding? Have you ever used rockwool before? Sure doesn't sound like it!

Rockwool is the very easiest medium to overwater because it is so absorbtive. It has a very strong wicking action that will allow water to displace all the air in a cube if it is watered too frequently.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

If I leave them in the rockwool, how do I feed them other than just hand watering them?

Hand water if you like, but wait until half the water is taken up out of the RW. Don't BOTH handwater and run the DWC.

Do you want me to have the water leaves touching the RW? I thought that was a very bad thing.

um, what's a water leaf?

No, leaves should not be allowed to touch wet media.

I am wondering though, isn't my hand watering like DWC until the roots reach the water?

No, not at all. DWC keeps roots submerged but there is a constant supply of air coming from a bubble curtain (air stone). If RW is kept saturated, there's no air.

I don't understand how I can have a DWC if there are no roots to reach reservoir.

Until you have roots that can reach into the aerated res, you're right, you don't have DWC.

If my water is not oxygenated enough, do I need to have the air pump in my solution right before I pour? I thought the pouring itself would be oxygenating enough.

Yes, keeping an air stone in the soln you use to hand water is a good idea, but one of the biggest drawbacks to RW is that it stores so much water that if not removed by a vigorous plant, the water can lose most of its dissolved O2 before the plant can take it up.

No, pouring water won't introduce much O2. Remember, air is 73% nitrogen and only about 20% oxygen. It's actually not so easy to dissolve significant amounts of O2 in water. Constantly aerating a solution with a pump & stone is an effective way of dissolving O2 in it.

 

[smokertoker]

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, "ROCKWOOL - Mineral wool products are used for their ability to hold large quantities of water and at the same time maintain a high percentage of air as well."

Yes, I have used it and I have NEVER been able to overwater ANYTHING I have grown in it. You have??? If so, all I have to say is WOW, was the cube sunk in water?

 

[Al B. Fuct]

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, "ROCKWOOL - Mineral wool products are used for their ability to hold large quantities of water and at the same time maintain a high percentage of air as well."

Yes, I have used it and I have NEVER been able to overwater ANYTHING I have grown in it. You have??? If so, all I have to say is WOW, was the cube sunk in water?

hahahahahaha Wikipedia!! Now there's a great source of totally and reliably correct, peer-reviewed growing information- at your fingertips! Another example of Wikiwrongess. Sounds like it came from a sales brochure.

If you have never overwatered anything in rockwool, you simply haven't used any. I spent a LONG time working out reliable cloning in rockwool cubes - and the main trick is preventing the material from being kept too wet!

 

[smokertoker]

I have heard many peoples failures of trying your technique...

Like I said, if you have overwatered anything in rockwool, WOW... Like I said the only way your going to overwater rockwool is to have it submerged in water.

 

[Al B. Fuct]

I have heard many peoples failures of trying your technique...

Only people who can't follow instructions.

Like I said the only way your going to overwater rockwool is to have it submerged in water.

um, wrong. All you have to do is give it water faster than it can be removed by the plant and evaporation. The speed of removal varies with the size of the plant, the volume of rockwool, how much air is being circulated in the area of the rockwool and whether it is directly exposed to light.

 

[Ngozer]

Al,

When I said "water leaves" I meant water level. Sorry, stoned.

Thanks for the tips. I used to have the plants in a 1 inch rw cube surrounded by the hydroton. Then when I moved them into 4 inch ones I had to cut the corners and I put the pellets in the sides to fill in the gap and on top to try to prevent any mold from forming at the base of the stem. I also have some on the bottom to keep the rw at the same level as the rim of the net pot.

I didn't think that the rooting concentrate was a magic sauce, I had no idea what was wrong and just wanted to try something. I have tried to be more careful about when and how much to water, but I still feel like its a complete guess. For the last couple of days, instead of watering all plants at the same time, I has switched to daily for my two largest and every 3 for my smallest.

As for aerating my nute solution, do you have any tips for that? Should it be aerating 24/7? Will that prevent any growth from popping up? Last time I tried mixing up a 3 day supply, some goopy shit appeared after a couple days.

Thanks!