Anyone using CMH bulbs?!?

[mipainpatient]

Wow, great info in this thread!

heres some mildly related tidbits i pulled from my few journal entries:

Why is all this relevant? Well, we need to always remember that we are responsible for recreating the plant’s natural environment. Chew on this (wiki on Rayleigh scattering)
The strong wavelength dependence of the scattering (~λ[SUP]−[/SUP][SUP]4[/SUP]) means that shorter (blue) wavelengths are scattered more strongly than longer (red) wavelengths. This results in the indirect blue light coming from all regions of the sky. Rayleigh scattering is a good approximation of the manner in which light scattering occurs within various media for which scattering particles have a small size parameter.
(end quote)
So they get blue from everywhere all day long, regardless of where the light source sits in the sky. Explains why they are so good at using blue light efficiently. However it is also highly absorbed, as shown in the first graph, so it will not penetrate like green/yellow wavelengths will.
(this is quoted from my writing, talking at the end about how vegging under MH and switching to low blue/HPS could induce a certain tyoe of circadian stress sensitive hermie tendency)
Blue light:

Causes phototropism plants grow towards it if there is a clear “area with blue” and “area without” they will favor the former. Provide enough and you have created an environment which may signal to the plant (via saturation, or oversaturation---yes it is possible to deliver too much light) that it should not/will not grow/stretch anymore. Because the ratio of “good quality light” (PAR) to infrared is known to bring about specific genetic expression changes (morphisms) such as generative expression, which we commonly call “flowering” (yes photoperiod does this too). I submit that these ratios, when changed, cause stress to the plants and the generative expression is a survival response to the stress.
(end quote)

Oh and you need to read this if you haven’t already:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a3527u6018823x43/
(even the abstract is great)

 

[Trichyn9ne]

Wow! I'm amazed to see such great info posted and so many people getting in on the convo. Seems like which light to use for which stage has been in question for too long! I like the cmh light over the mh so far in veg! Plants look way more green and healthy plus they are growing at a faster rate which could be just because the mh bulb was old

 

[FatMarty]

Top graph- PAR, how the range of the visible light is perceived by plants (via pigment absorption)
bottom- PUR, how the range of visible light is USED by plants (based on CO2 consumption tests)


View attachment 2296790
(link may be bigger)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Par_action_spectrum.gif

what we see:
View attachment 2296789
luminosity as per the visible spectrum (we see certain light ranges, thus we cant measure grow lights w our eyes or a simple lumen/lux meter alone as these are designed to measure light AS WE SEE IT)

also just to establish some of the limitations even with the silicon PV detector:
View attachment 2296788

different company but still. this one has settings to "optimize" the lower (under 500nm) response but comes nowhere near to the PUR graph response slope, which is the "photovoltaic" system in plants you are trying to evaluate light output for.

So does this first chart mean that we really want to know PAR in two sub-ranges rather than one braod one?

See the part about PAR I'm having trouble with is how does it tell you how much absorbsion you get in the color range you want?
Is color always what the specs say and the PAR just the usable portion of it for our needs?

Like my MH lamp is 3300 K for color.
Does PAR measure it in that color?
Or is PAR measuring how much the plant can absorb from the source in all usable color?

 

[mipainpatient]

so PAR specifically refers to the types of light which are known to be useful for photosynthesis---this is important to note because you have to remember that the whole range of the electromagnetic spectrum is considered light, IE radio waves are light waves.
Your 3300K MH is rated thusly because it produces an output spectrum which is deemed to be reasonably close* to the output spectrum of a black body (imagine a hunk of iron) heated up to 3300 degrees Kelvin (kelvin is Celsius degrees - 273.15) The color seen comes in the peak spectrums and is subjected to the limitations of the colors we are more able to see (preferentially 500-600nm wavelengths). *this concept of "reasonably close spectrum" is also known as the CRI rating (color rendering index) of a light source im gonna bet that 3300K MH is like 73-80 CRI?

The PAR meter (involved in measuring---im not being snotty just covering all bases) measures the flux (how many are striking a surface area) of photons which fall into the PAR range. This differs from a "photometer" or "flux meter" because these both detect something called "luminous flux" which is a measure of the amount of "human visible light" hitting a surface area. Because plants are more broadly affected by the whole spectrum of visible light (400-730ish) a photometer is superbly inadequate inform you how much plant-usable light is present. The thing is, a PAR meter is not breaking it down by how much from each color, it is simply removing the limitation on the sensor that would make it preferentially detect 500-600nm wavelengths, like our eyes do. If ya peek back at the graph of the response of the silicon photovoltaic detector, there is already a glaring problem....The detector itself is unable to produce current as efficiently with under 500nm light as it is going above 500nm. I merely wanted to point out that it drops off substantially whereas you actually see a HUGE peak for PUR (photosynthetically USABLE radiation, take PAR and see what each color range actually does and you get PUR, the bottom graph from earlier) in the 400-450nm, specifically 420nm range. However, before you go stacking violet and blue LEDs all over the place in your room, remember that the ratio of blue:white(AKA your combined other non-blue lights) will determine stretching vs short internodes. Don't want anyone hating me for life because I made them dwarf their monsters. Also important to note about the PUR graph, notice how far from 0% the green/yellow range is....don't ever let anyone tell you green light doesn't photosynthesize. If memory serves it is closer to 20%. This should be kind of a DUH moment for everyone because green light is highly reflected by plant leaves, and so they are basically "tithing" this light range, taking a small sip (hence the 20% CO2 consumption observed) and reflecting most of it to the rest of their buddies.

If you want to know how much of each color you are producing you are pretty much looking at a radio spectrometer...think universities on this one. Most likely you will find a lively prof who is willing to hear you out, but chances are you are bringing your light to the U.

So yes, more like your third idea, how much the plant can absorb from the source in all colors.
Here is how you make a PAR meter do more:
You get filters which will filter out particular ranges of the spectrum.
Now you are only getting a reading of the remaining spectrum = the part of the spectrum/color range you are trying to get data from.


I think that is where you were hoping to go marty. If not ask again and we'll see if we can't piece it together. Surely I vastly overresponded to your questions but dude, once you get the gears goin....and this Qleaner is definitely helping that...
MPP

 

[mipainpatient]

I was trying to just edit this as an add on to the beginning of the last post to save thread pages but RIU insists that 2 paragraphs is under 10 characters and keeps busting my balls about it so F it here it is:

So does this first chart mean that we really want to know PAR in two sub-ranges rather than one braod one?
See my filter idea near the end.
See the part about PAR I'm having trouble with is how does it tell you how much absorbsion you get in the color range you want?
There are two things, absorption and usage. (PAR and PUR) The PAR meter is a photovoltaic detector. The detector operates by generating a current when photons strike it's sensor and quantifying this current as a number which correlates effectively to how many photons in the "sweet spot" range you have, 400-700nm.
Is color always what the specs say and the PAR just the usable portion of it for our needs?
Kelvin explained below. Some companies are nice enough to print a radio spectrometer graph on the side of the bulb box. AKA a spectral emission graph or relative spectral power graph. Sometimes these are grossly inaccurate, begging the question of their true origin or "creator".
Like my MH lamp is 3300 K for color.
Does PAR measure it in that color?
See Kelvin explained.
Or is PAR measuring how much the plant can absorb from the source in all usable color?Bingo

 

[Trichyn9ne]

So talking in PAR...if that makes sense. The CMH would have better PAR ratings than the HPS because of the better spectrum of light in the usable form?

Crossing my fingers that I don't sound like a dumb ass

 

[sfttailpaul]

wow....Xpensive! did that say $834? I bet that is why everyone isn't using them. GD and if you got to repplace them anually like most HID
(I do it every 6 months) then that is why I don't use them!

NA-a-a, the 400W is like $39.00 at the link above (a few posts back)....
Never knew about these until now, thanks to everyone who contributed esp. the first post, i forget the name, sorry

 

[FatMarty]

I was trying to just edit this as an add on to the beginning of the last post to save thread pages but RIU insists that 2 paragraphs is under 10 characters and keeps busting my balls about it so F it here it is:

Really appreciate you taking the time to get those gears going man.
Thank You.

 

[Trichyn9ne]

Can anyone help answer this for me please? Thanks

So talking in PAR...if that makes sense. The CMH would have better PAR ratings than the HPS because of the better spectrum of light in the usable form?​

 

[Cory and trevor]

Can anyone help answer this for me please? Thanks

So talking in PAR...if that makes sense. The CMH would have better PAR ratings than the HPS because of the better spectrum of light in the usable form?​

That's what I gather from the info posted here. instead of using the measure of what our eye sees (lumens) PAR is a measure of the light plants can use for photosynthesis. If I'm following the conversation.....I admit I'm feeling more and more like a kid trying to hear what's going on at the grown folks table at dinner but that's what I'm getting.

 

[Trichyn9ne]

I'm in your shoes on this one cory! feel like everyone is talking in foreign language. I just want to know if the cmh bulbs have a better par rating that hps! From what I gather I'd say yes myself and I think the plants are growing faster but that could be the medication

 

[Huel Perkins]

I'm in your shoes on this one cory! feel like everyone is talking in foreign language. I just want to know if the cmh bulbs have a better par rating that hps! From what I gather I'd say yes myself and I think the plants are growing faster but that could be the medication

In the same boat myself, I definitely don't know as much as I should about lights. Some if this thread is over my head too but it's inspired me to do as much reading about lighting as I can lately, this thread is full of great info!

 

[mipainpatient]

Can anyone help answer this for me please? Thanks

So talking in PAR...if that makes sense. The CMH would have better PAR ratings than the HPS because of the better spectrum of light in the usable form?​

Sorry I missed this, yea you have to factor in the wattage difference, and also the filter idea because you could use the PAR meter + filter to determine how many PAR Watts are coming from each part of the spectrum from each light. Take that and the photon flux density study I posted about cannabis and you are using science like it was meant to be. Because you kind of want as much of all spectrums you can get, so CMH + HPS may actually be a winner, my hunch is that if you had a 400 CMH you might only want/need a 250hps to hit the amount of that spectrum you are missing, but CMH is a pretty solid line on a spectral output graph so probably fine on its own.

That's what I gather from the info posted here. instead of using the measure of what our eye sees (lumens) PAR is a measure of the light plants can use for photosynthesis. If I'm following the conversation.....I admit I'm feeling more and more like a kid trying to hear what's going on at the grown folks table at dinner but that's what I'm getting.

No need to feel unawares, you are well able to answer his question and thus strides ahead of most growers. Not tryin to sound like I'm up on an ego "soapbox" just tired of being told I don't know what I'm talking about when I am polite enough to engage people at grow shops (which have been a fucking godsend to this 15 yr + organic gardener who is sick of the poor selection in most "home and garden" establishments)

Also remember, part of the reason people use CMH s is for the extra UV, so wear your sunglasses and for god's sake don't put a fricken cover on it (glass cover/lens or whatever) because unless it is quartz it is nerfing your UV.
MPP

 

[Trichyn9ne]

Thanks much for all the great info supplied in this thread mipainpatient! I'm glad there's people like you on this forum that know what they are talking about. I do know about the uv benefits of the cmh and have an open hood for it already!

I do agree with you on the poor selection of anything organic in any garden store!! Add in the fact they have 18-19 year olds running the place that have never had any knowledge of plants and its just a f****** Joke!! Stay high bro

 

[VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO]

we are all here to learn something. I learned a lot from this thread also and I'm not even from Michigan,lol

My goal was to just see what bulb was really the best, and in the process, maybe save myself and you people some money if a cheaper bulb is comparable to the top of line ones. But mipainpatient has helped to expand my knowledge of lighting, so The next rip is in your honor.

testing hortilux,sun master and ultra sun tomorrow. stay tuned for results.

 

[mipainpatient]

I guess this is the part where I should tell you guys I flower under t5 (specialty coral/reptile bulbs) and LEDs. I know plenty on HIDs (tho probably much less than you guys on particular brands etc) because of a number of people I have conversed with and many gardens visited and watched online also I have spent probably a collective 500+ hours researching the topics---scouring the academic world, with an assembled archive of over 2k peer-reviewed research publications, I think about 800 of which come up when I enter the search query "cannabis". That and I'm obviously one of those quirky science geek types, and was lucky enough to have a prof that specializes in PAR.
Happy to be of service.
One of my theories (and thus not reported earlier unlike the facts) is that heavier blue/violet/UV presence in generative phase, aka flowering, will result in a higher concentration of terpenoids such as cannabinoids as many sources can confirm (nothing recent on the peer-reviewed end) the link between crucial phyto-antioxidants, which cannabinoids are. UV and high blue wL damage induces the generation of singlet Oxygen in the chloroplast, a threat which needs to be mitigated or its bad news---anti-oxidants do what you'd think from the name, also in our bodies which is why people try to get you to eat/drink blueberries/cranberries/acai berries/etc. ANYhew.....
I got this study on mint, which I believe is not all that incredibly removed from cannabaceae and if you look really closely, the terpenoid precursors for some of the end oils in the mints are the same as some crucial ones in ol' greeny.

• http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...11134410001107
  (posted before in this thread, along with lots of other great stuff and I've got some writings of similar caliber to this thread and many more research papers posted):
  https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/545857-advanced-lighting-spectrums-t5-floro.html
  ​
  
  

Anyone else rockin LEDs? if so what model, (quoted wattage and actual draw please) as well as RED:Blue:White ratio etc if you know it, I'm a sponge for technical info. Also what temps you rock as some may know you can run non HID grows a bit hotter without deleterious effects. (makes sense because as one would imagine, if your spectrum is closer in line with that of the sun, you could have temperatures that more realistically reflect the temperatures in the summer)
Peace and Good night
MPP

 

[VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO]

Happy to be of service.
One of my theories (and thus not reported earlier unlike the facts) is that heavier blue/violet/UV presence in generative phase, aka flowering, will result in a higher concentration of terpenoids such as cannabinoids as many sources can confirm
MPP

Do you like this all the way thru flowering, or just the last 2 weeks as some would recommend?

 

[SwissCheese]

Victorygardens thanks for posting up the test results and can't wait for the next results as I've been using sunmasters for just over a year now and am ready for some new ones!!!

 

[mipainpatient]

Do you like this all the way thru flowering, or just the last 2 weeks as some would recommend?

Depends on the strain, but I run perpetual so its the whole flowering run. Some strains can handle 12 hours of dead on UV, some seem to prefer a "high noon" 6 hour stretch with the UV supplementation. So basically I have 2 flowering tents to offer both. I may have said this on this thread before, but my results and some research on other species indicate that hairier strains are more likely to fall into the first category---hair on stems/leaves etc not pistils BTW (can take more UV). I'm also starting to introduce it in veg tent, hoping to harden em off on it more, maybe even get those 6 hour strains up to 12 through training. In the research world UV supplementation is considered an introduced stressor and as can be seen in even the abstract of the peppermint paper, it will bring about genetic changes. Most likely you want these to happen as early in the plant's life as possible. Here is the reasoning:
I'm a pretty little kush seedling, ooo ouch lots of UV coming my way, well I got a set of genes for dealing with this (I mean I am from the Kush mountains ya know, where you get measurable UV readings coming in pretty much 24/7) I'm going to start gearing up for what is sure to be a harsh life and I'm going to need all my tricks to survive. (end result, trich forest)
Only thing is this would just maybe give a boost because I can verify that throwing a puny little reptile CFL bulb that you can buy at the pet stores (yea even the craptastic chain ones---can find special spectrum t8s too, stick to online for t5s, trust me---happy to discuss my choices)---will bring about significant trichome production in a matter of days. I felt like some of the not yet developed trichs (look like wet parts of the leaf tissue, yea we are talking about strains that have trichs on the fan leaves) literally popped out overnight.
Take it all with a grain of salt, like anything. But bros, this one is easy as hell to test, and if you are working with high (80+%) indica strains, go grab one of these special 20-25$ bulbs and try it out, even in your HID grow just hang a cheapo low amp extension cord and see if you notice anything on that branch/nearby branches (might help to label it so you make sure it goes in its own jar later etc)
for real good night, dunno how i ended up back on here
yeesh

little repost of a repost of a repost of some stuff on trichs and UV among other stuff and pretty pictures:
http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/40815-inside-the-trichome-by-bubbleman-and-jeremiah-vanderveer-required-reading-for-extract-makers/page__fromsearch__1

you should easily find better prices than this, but for a basic idea of the product I am describing:
http://www.petco.com/product/13365/Zoo-Med-ReptiSun-Desert-Compact-Fluorescent-UVB-Lamp.aspx

 

[Timmahh]

Not always the 250 and 400w bulbs have conversions so they can be used in a hps ballast. Another tidbit cmh bulbs will not work in digital ballasts.

they could. but most wont. their are difference in CMH bulbs


1st there is the standard maker, Philips. which brang CMH Bulbs to market first. with Philips its patented as Ceramic Metal Halide. but everyone else calls it (patent and likely manufacture processes) a Conversion Metal Halide. I believe the actual ceramic part of the bulb is also Philips patent though i may be mistaken, but this may be also why Philips currently only has the 400w versions.... the 830 while a Conversion Metal halide by Philips, is not the same as the Ceramic Metal Halides..


now the Philips is designed to work on a 60 Htz per cycle. that is the key to why it Should be a Magnetic HPS, which run at 60Htz. While most every Digital ballast runs at 180 Htz. But the Quantum digital Ballast, are designed and run at 60Htz. so these MAY work very well with the Philips bulbs.. But I have not bought one (Quantum 400w HPS digital) to try. Though I would think it would work quite well, being a 60htz operation.