Advanced Lighting Spectrums for T5 Floro and LED

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Oh my bad.. I misread. Im on my phone. Smaller print I dont know. Lame excuses

Good find. Wave poing told me in June, then a month later they said end of summer. So...... Run around.

Personally I would not use them. Im trying to stay away from 420nm. The flora suns are cheaper. $14.99 at drfostersmith and free shipping if you spend $49. The true lumen 460 is same price there too.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
reading reading reading, found some useful info i am now under the impression that both far red and red could be used to our advantage. far red can help induce flowering while red on the other hand at night will inhibit it. almost like veg and flower setup in nature. also since from what i was reading it does not take much energy bulbs can be placed close so in other words, mothers in the flowering room? and short nights like 71/2 hours?

sounds good.....lol.

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/25734/PDF

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/42/1/95.full.pdf

http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/psapublishing/Pages/Hort/HortLf65.pdf

lots of info, lots of reading too :(
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
Speaking as a LED grower, 730+660 is a combo that really finishes plants but should be added at the end of the grow and be separate from your panels ala Lumi Red Spots. I use a panel with a 4:1 ratio of 660 to 730 and ever since, my Indicas will show amber trichs on their sugar leaves during week 5 to 6 in flower, which is way too early IMHO. I figured from what I read, a Red/FR combo would help finish my plants, which my BS240s and previous 5x60 never really did. But I think I overdid it with this panel, it may be finishing my plants too early, (or maybe they're finally on time ;)). Ultimately I'm probably going to have to get a 630+450+White panel, (or panels), to use for flower and keep the 660+730 panel higher until late flowering, but I still want to finish some SLH's which are running now before making up my mind. And from what I've also read some 730 is very good for germinating since it seems to help with root development. Another reason to buy some Red/FR spots perhaps?

Great thread, I'm actually going to finish reading this thing when I'm more level headed at work tomorrow :). Keep it up guyz. And I was wondering, does any attenuation of the light happen when photon meets plant or does that only happen with higher energies, like Xrays?
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
hmm since plants fluoresce light rather than reflect all of it of it there must be some loss. so i would say yes.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
know who this thread is really missing? (fonz you dont know him yet,good guy, most of what ive learned about UV comes from him)

Kitehigh. though he rarely posts around here.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Franj. You got me thinking. Since I am in a quasi reveg/flower mode, I should pull the 660. :wall:

That got me thinking, I had my lights on 10/14 so need to add one hour AND to increase nute strength. I get by with a little help from my friends, even when they don't know it
:clap:
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Ultimately I'm probably going to have to get a 630+450+White panel, (or panels), to use for flower and keep the 660+730 panel higher until late flowering, but I still want to finish some SLH's which are running now before making up my mind.
Why not just use Neutral White LEDs for flower? Why add the 630 and 450? There is already plenty of these 2 wavelengths in Neutral Whites.

With that being said, check out the high power 50w to 100w Neutral White Spot Light LEDs. Much penetration and has the full spectrum already. There are a few threads with people having great results using only the whites.

And I was wondering, does any attenuation of the light happen when photon meets plant or does that only happen with higher energies, like Xrays?
Usually light attenuation refers to aquatic plants since the light has to travel through water. Why do you ask?
 

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
Fonz, I think this is a bit simplistic. We have seen 40-60watt leds with high penetration grow some really nice plants. So I don't THINK it's the watts per say. 60 bulbs @ 1 watt will not have the same effect as 20 bulbs @ 3 watt, and yet both = 60 watts, unless you moved the 3watt fixture up high enough to neutralize its' benefits

My gut tells me we are looking for a ratio. Using the PAR charts as a guide has thrown everyone off.The amount of B mj requires is far less than the PAR chart indicates.

I THINK the basic RBG ratio is ~ 60:20:20. RB to be adjusted depending on strain: Sat or Indica; possibly the G also, but to a lessor extent
I hate chiming in so late on this but if green only comes into play after saturation of the blue and red spectra are complete, then wouldn't the green ratio be determined by what constitutes "saturation" for a given strain? sorry i'm still catching up on all this
 

mipainpatient

Active Member
Good resource for UV-B and effects on different plants. It doesn't sound that harmful to most plants and will thicken the leaves up to protect them more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC523886/
This is one of my favorite UV studies (peppermint):
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1011134410001107

and if you really want to get into it:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031942210002943
Not as relevant but we do see a lot of N deficiencies in flower because people think they need to switch to "flowering nutes" if you supplement UVb here is a study with beans:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0098847207000020

Important to note here--there is clear damage during irradiation but it resolves quickly after the UV level drops/is removed, granted this is a study with rice:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1011134411001370

My question is, to those who are breeding, how are you affecting the stock:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136952661100015X
Not to say you are making it worse, just would love it if you posted your results as time goes on, thanks if you already are.

Maybe this will help along the way...at least some good medicated reading, would be fun to try simulating mountain pressures etc in a sealed chamber and see if that changes the spectrum reactions....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1572599508800361

Peace
mpp
 

Dr.J20

Well-Known Member
I've been doing multiple, multiple tests for the last few months with about 10 different T5 fixtures, LEDs and other light sources to understand what the different wavelengths do for cannabis strains. The tests are not done(probably never will be), but I've ........
Sit back, relax and you will see the light.

just wanted to say thanks for the thread Fonz!
be easy
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
This is one of my favorite UV studies (peppermint):
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1011134410001107

and if you really want to get into it:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031942210002943
Not as relevant but we do see a lot of N deficiencies in flower because people think they need to switch to "flowering nutes" if you supplement UVb here is a study with beans:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0098847207000020

Important to note here--there is clear damage during irradiation but it resolves quickly after the UV level drops/is removed, granted this is a study with rice:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1011134411001370

My question is, to those who are breeding, how are you affecting the stock:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136952661100015X
Not to say you are making it worse, just would love it if you posted your results as time goes on, thanks if you already are.

Maybe this will help along the way...at least some good medicated reading, would be fun to try simulating mountain pressures etc in a sealed chamber and see if that changes the spectrum reactions....
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1572599508800361

Peace
mpp
the last one works best on cocaine.
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
Why not just use Neutral White LEDs for flower? Why add the 630 and 450? There is already plenty of these 2 wavelengths in Neutral Whites. With that being said, check out the high power 50w to 100w Neutral White Spot Light LEDs. Much penetration and has the full spectrum already. There are a few threads with people having great results using only the whites.

Usually light attenuation refers to aquatic plants since the light has to travel through water. Why do you ask?
Hey Fonz, I just got a couple of sticking points with this;
You must remember there is no such beast as a full spectrum LED. LEDs do not produce white light as much as they produce light that we detect as white. And as I see it you cannot depend on any white LED to supply needed spectrum, even when you've got the spectral data in hand since variables like heat/cooling issues, binning, and lying salespeople will alter your spectrum. And besides Neutral white LEDs are terrible in 630, they contain more green, blue and yellow than red and their peaks and output are weak compared to a LED with a dedicated spectrum, at least for this week. And any FR/IR in a white LED light will not be enough for flowering. It's usually just poor production, unless you know some whites really kicking out the FR/IR. So while whites good for plugging holes in your spectrum and general plant health I believe, you can't rely on them for specific spectra nor their output for flowering. And for the record my flowering panel contains 5 4500K Neutrals as well as 5 12000K Cools, so you're preaching to the choir on this one :).

I use 2x20 watt 5500K white LED lights to supplement my LED panel in my veg cab, and for germinating and I'm starting to believe that all the wattage in the world doesn't matter without a specific PAR levels. While maybe Cree and a handful of other companies can get good levels in certain spectrums with white LEDs, probably due to their technology, most companies don't. It's probably something to do with the phosphorous conversion process of the LED, where lots of energy is wasted. Hopefully this will be a thing of the past and an all white flowering panel will be common, especially after someone discovers a solution to the blue-green diode dilemma. Anyhow here's an interesting article on comparing two ways of making white light with LEDs. This will probably be effecting our decisions on what white LED to choose in the near future.
http://ledsmagazine.com/features/9/7/6

And I'm wondering about attenuation because when I look at my grow area, the plants are just so bright in appearance I'm wondering if its all reflection and fluorescence or that there must be some spectral shifting going on and I'm thinking it's attenuation and not just the added white lights.

Anyway I'm baked and that's my 2 cents.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
And besides Neutral white LEDs are terrible in 630, they contain more green, blue and yellow than red and their peaks and output are weak compared to a LED with a dedicated spectrum, at least for this week. And any FR/IR in a white LED light will not be enough for flowering.
I dunno bout that, this white led peaks very close to 630nm and reaches into far-red.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I hate chiming in so late on this but if green only comes into play after saturation of the blue and red spectra are complete, then wouldn't the green ratio be determined by what constitutes "saturation" for a given strain? sorry i'm still catching up on all this

Yes, how much RB constitutes 'saturation' is the BIG question
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Take a look at sunlight, it's 3-5 times saturation for plants. Take the red/blue ratio and then divide the green into them. There's gotta be some accurate sun spectrum measurements out there. I'm sure it's a consistent direct ratio. Eventually when the red/blue saturation is low enough, the green would be so dim that it would be unnecessary to even use it. So find a middle point and it should be a good reference.
 

FranJan

Well-Known Member
I dunno bout that, this white led peaks very close to 630nm and reaches into far-red.
I can show you white lights with little to no peaks in 630, so please stop generalizing that all white LEDs are the same. My spots have almost no red in them because they're just a blue LED with a yellow based phosphor tricking my eyes into seeing white. And why do you keep saying they reach into the Far Red? Can you show me one white LED that has usable radiation in the 710-740 spectrum? I'll start buying them tomorrow.
 
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