dannydakota
Member
I've grown using a 120w LED from HTG. 2 plants, I got 2oz each. Pretty close to the gram per watt. And that was in soil.
Led Users Unite!
- Thread starter project fuoro
- Start date
budlover909
Active Member
that spretty good results thumbs up bro
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
All good points, and I never really paid attention to the exact space he had there, but still I stand by my point, If I crammed a 5x5 area with 24 plants with x thousands in lights with all that experience and nutes, 22 Zips is still weak, although the g/watt we great.
My biggest point is that if you take things in context, a lot of these "g/watt" grows are lack luster in total yield. It's a terrible way to display the potential of LED's IMHO.
I think LED's are great for normal grows. I think they are more relatable to most growers when you see grows like kush, and tshirtninja, using 133W of draw and pumping out nice plants.
You know that I am in no way trying to trash talk LED's, but I am just tired of all these comparisons to LBG who had such an unrealistic grow, with generally unrealistic equipment for normal growers, getting a ho hum overall crop (that probably melted to 18 zips after any type of real cure).
I find that grows like yours, kush's, and so on and so forth are better ways to measure up LEDs. I REALLY do see a difference. I am no expert, and I am not alone with having 1K lights, and people melt when I post pics (especially for an asshole newbie). The difference: my LEDs. I swear by them, however for heat, and to cover all the entire spectrum, I have mixed my 1K metal halide with my 500W unit and my 240W unit. (even though my sig says HPS). I don't think I'll be using the HPS ever again. I just cropped yesterday and damn is all I have to say.
Either way, I think that the further we move away from "g/watt" grows and the closer we move to "LED best practices" or "total pull grows" then the better the grows will be, the better the respect for LED's will be, and the more "all led" - "led/cfl" - "led/hid" - "led/whatever" grows we will see and the more great tips we will generate.
I haven't seen a whole ton of bad LED grows. There are a small amount here and there, but primarily people are having great success with them. Like myself and my mixed up lighting techniques. All of us are technically trailblazing here with LED's, none of us know where the end of the trails are yet so we should leave every option on the table. Instead of saying "my lights are the best cuz I got .9g/oz, and everyone else's lights are shit", say "however the fuck you grow with LED's is awesome, and keep on posting and adding to the knowledge base"
By and large many people are using this thread for guidance and we should always keep that in mind (myself especially). However, I also have to say that a lionshare of us do a great job at helping people and we haven't quite ironed out how to act when we step on eachothers toes. (again myself included)
I think we should have a separate thread for "LED brands" another thread for "LED grow best practices" and use "Led users unite" for general conversation. The forum REALLY needs a LED section so things can branch out more.
God I should stop doing these posts high, I ramble like a bitch....
My biggest point is that if you take things in context, a lot of these "g/watt" grows are lack luster in total yield. It's a terrible way to display the potential of LED's IMHO.
I think LED's are great for normal grows. I think they are more relatable to most growers when you see grows like kush, and tshirtninja, using 133W of draw and pumping out nice plants.
You know that I am in no way trying to trash talk LED's, but I am just tired of all these comparisons to LBG who had such an unrealistic grow, with generally unrealistic equipment for normal growers, getting a ho hum overall crop (that probably melted to 18 zips after any type of real cure).
I find that grows like yours, kush's, and so on and so forth are better ways to measure up LEDs. I REALLY do see a difference. I am no expert, and I am not alone with having 1K lights, and people melt when I post pics (especially for an asshole newbie). The difference: my LEDs. I swear by them, however for heat, and to cover all the entire spectrum, I have mixed my 1K metal halide with my 500W unit and my 240W unit. (even though my sig says HPS). I don't think I'll be using the HPS ever again. I just cropped yesterday and damn is all I have to say.
Either way, I think that the further we move away from "g/watt" grows and the closer we move to "LED best practices" or "total pull grows" then the better the grows will be, the better the respect for LED's will be, and the more "all led" - "led/cfl" - "led/hid" - "led/whatever" grows we will see and the more great tips we will generate.
I haven't seen a whole ton of bad LED grows. There are a small amount here and there, but primarily people are having great success with them. Like myself and my mixed up lighting techniques. All of us are technically trailblazing here with LED's, none of us know where the end of the trails are yet so we should leave every option on the table. Instead of saying "my lights are the best cuz I got .9g/oz, and everyone else's lights are shit", say "however the fuck you grow with LED's is awesome, and keep on posting and adding to the knowledge base"
By and large many people are using this thread for guidance and we should always keep that in mind (myself especially). However, I also have to say that a lionshare of us do a great job at helping people and we haven't quite ironed out how to act when we step on eachothers toes. (again myself included)
I think we should have a separate thread for "LED brands" another thread for "LED grow best practices" and use "Led users unite" for general conversation. The forum REALLY needs a LED section so things can branch out more.
God I should stop doing these posts high, I ramble like a bitch....
Hudson.....no offense taken. You always make great points and provide realistic expectations and honest information. I didn't know I was being compared to Irish and LBG and seeing as how I only have one completed grow and screwed it up with nute issues perhaps people need to find someone else
I often end up in arguments pertaining to Blackstar but it is ONLY a reaction to people who claim they are the best and I don't think that is fair to the people looking for honest information. I have never claimed my LED's were the best and the only grow I have completed (and screwed up with nute issues) still produced better than any Blackstar grow for grams per watt and it wasn't because I grew that well.
That being said there is nothing in the price range other than HID to compete with Blackstar so if that's the budget you have to work with I would definately recommend any grower get them over HID purely from a detection and safety standpoint. They will definately produce some decent smoke and you won't be dissapointed. If you have more money for startup and are in this for the long haul I think there are other lights that produce better yeilds and thus be more profitable even if they cost more to begin with.
So back to your points:
If you consider startup costs only....LED makes no sense. Also, in terms of the ability of a light to produce weight in a fixed space....I think HID wins that fight every time. I've known people who get 2.25 pounds from a 4x4 area. I think if I get this dialed I will pull 1.4-1.5 in a 4x4 (I might be dreaming too) so no contest there.
On LBG's grow. It was a confined space. He doesn't have an entire attic. He has the end gable in a house. It's 4 ft wide. 3 ft high and 14 ft long. One of the walls on the long sides is at a 45 degree angle so the 4 ft wide reduces to 1 ft wide at the max height of 3 ft. He needs room to crawl down the side of his grow so his actual growing area is 2 ft wide, 3 ft high and he has a carbon filter at one end and his co2 at the other so the actual growing length is 12ft. In other words he has very limited height and 24 sq ft.
Basically he's growing the equivalent of a 5x5 area and has 30" from the floor to the bottom of his lights. First off you couldn't use HPS in that area without starting a fire because they'd be jammed into the corner of the ceiling. But lets say you could use two 400's. You'd still need 8" off the lights for the plants and with 8" for pots (stubbys) you could have 14" plants. So two 400's over 14" plants in a 4x4 area. I really don't think they'd pull 26 zips and I'd be surprised if they broke a pound. To your point of this being about the money, I agree. Grams per watt in the end is dollars per watt because even if you grow your own, if you didn't you'd have to buy it. Anyway, he couldn't grow with HPS in that area so LED is the money in that space.
So back to the money discussion. The startup cost sucks but I really think that LED has commercial merit and that's what I'm hoping to prove in the next couple grows. The commercial guys I used to know never grew anywhere for more than a year as detection was inevitable. Once a year they had complete construction costs at a new location. That's not cheap and it also wastes time which is money.
For those trying to run the biggest show they can under the radar:
Where I am it is generally accepted that you can get away with a four light show or a three light show with A/C. The A/C route is preferable as it allows for co2 and sealed environment avoiding odor and humidity detection issues which are big when you are trying to vent hot, humid air in sub zero temperatures. Either way the limit is 4000 watts. That's where LED has great commercial viability as LED has the highest grams per watt so basically it grows the most weed and thus is the most profitable.
Now to your point which is very valid and is probably the category MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM FALL INTO. If you are growing in a 4x4 or 4x8 area then HID is the cheapest to start up and will produce the most bud in that space so in the end it's the best bang for the buck and most profitable. HID produce so much light that when LED are added they become supplemental lighting so at that point just buy the cheapest LED's you can as their contribution is minimal anyway.
Cheers!
meharmon
Member
Grams per watt is trivial. Example:
Tom: "Whoa man I got 1 gram/watt from that anylighthere, its badass!"
Jim: "Wow, I only got .5 from the same light, you da man!"
Tom: "Don't feel bad bro, my plants were larger because I vegged longer, so of course I got more bud than you."
Jim: "But I feel so inadequate when we compare grams/watt."
Tom: "It's OK, it doesn't mean anything without the light cycle, because energy consumption is not measured in watts, its measured in watt-hours."
Jim: "..."
Tom: "So if we look at g/Wh as a measure of efficiency, and not just part of the measurement like g/w... you were way more efficient!"
Jim: "But its the same light..."
Tom: "Sure but I had it running longer so the plants are bigger from all that extra energy from the light."
Jim: "But they're the same lights, they should use the same energy..."
Tom: "Not when they're not being used, Jim."
Jim: "..."
Don't be like Jim
<3
Tom: "Whoa man I got 1 gram/watt from that anylighthere, its badass!"
Jim: "Wow, I only got .5 from the same light, you da man!"
Tom: "Don't feel bad bro, my plants were larger because I vegged longer, so of course I got more bud than you."
Jim: "But I feel so inadequate when we compare grams/watt."
Tom: "It's OK, it doesn't mean anything without the light cycle, because energy consumption is not measured in watts, its measured in watt-hours."
Jim: "..."
Tom: "So if we look at g/Wh as a measure of efficiency, and not just part of the measurement like g/w... you were way more efficient!"
Jim: "But its the same light..."
Tom: "Sure but I had it running longer so the plants are bigger from all that extra energy from the light."
Jim: "But they're the same lights, they should use the same energy..."
Tom: "Not when they're not being used, Jim."
Jim: "..."
Don't be like Jim
<3
dannydakota
Member
Thanks
I just bought another one, and gonna bump it up another plant.
abecsta
Active Member
jim seems a lil slowGrams per watt is trivial. Example:
Tom: "Whoa man I got 1 gram/watt from that anylighthere, its badass!"
Jim: "Wow, I only got .5 from the same light, you da man!"
Tom: "Don't feel bad bro, my plants were larger because I vegged longer, so of course I got more bud than you."
Jim: "But I feel so inadequate when we compare grams/watt."
Tom: "It's OK, it doesn't mean anything without the light cycle, because energy consumption is not measured in watts, its measured in watt-hours."
Jim: "..."
Tom: "So if we look at g/Wh as a measure of efficiency, and not just part of the measurement like g/w... you were way more efficient!"
Jim: "But its the same light..."
Tom: "Sure but I had it running longer so the plants are bigger from all that extra energy from the light."
Jim: "But they're the same lights, they should use the same energy..."
Tom: "Not when they're not being used, Jim."
Jim: "..."
Don't be like Jim
<3
dunit
Active Member
@ Hudson. I am probably preoccupied with grams per watt because the limiting factor for many of my friends who aren't liscenced is total watts as there is sort of an accepted maximum to keep under the radar. They look to maximize yield based on the amout of watts they have to use. You are absolutely right about looking at Total Yield as a way to improve the credibility. How big an area did you just cut down and what kind of yield does it look like ur gonna have?
I'm coming down in two weeks and right now my total yield for a 4x4 area looks like it's gonna be quite impressive regardless of consideration that I only have 360 watts total draw over it.
I'm coming down in two weeks and right now my total yield for a 4x4 area looks like it's gonna be quite impressive regardless of consideration that I only have 360 watts total draw over it.
budlover909
Active Member
seen a 3kw hps setup get repaced with 560w led + 1kw hps and yield doubling with same strain in same time period same system forgot which panel was being used gonna have to find it
abecsta
Active Member
thats cool hps and led seem to work well together i was thinking of buying a 400 or 600w hps to go with my 120w led
do you like the sound of this?
144*3w
in
red 660, 630 in 1:1 ratio
far red 730
blue 430-450
blue 470
white 6400k , 2700k in 1:1
and be R.7:FR.1:B.1:B.1:W.1
do you like the sound of this?
144*3w
in
red 660, 630 in 1:1 ratio
far red 730
blue 430-450
blue 470
white 6400k , 2700k in 1:1
and be R.7:FR.1:B.1:B.1:W.1
Well thats about 220-250w of LED power, it sounds good enough although I don't know the lens angle or price (or have pic to give idea of quality)
abecsta
Active Member
lense angle is 90 degrees
630nm red: 48pcs
660nm red: 48pcs
730nm far red: 12pcs
430-450nm blue: 12pcs
460-670nm blue: 12pcs
6400k white: 6pcs
2700k white: 6pcs
how is it 250 if its using 3w leds wouldn't it be 432
Well 144 3w LEDs should run about 216-252w total, which is 1.5 - 1.75w per 3w diode (they don't run higher for good reasons). That doesn't count fans, which I imagine should run about 2-4w each, and most good panels have 6
I'm pretty sure 3w diodes are not able to run higher that 1.75w mostly but I may be wrong, the tech is changing multiple times a year! But I do know they can't run all that close to full power, I am very sure I have never heard of any one who runs 3w diodes at more than 1.75w (and most run at 1.5w). This is how companies get away with claiming their lights are better than they are they only tell you what the # of diodes you get x the max w rating of each (when in reality its about half that plus fans)
budlover909
Active Member
regular computer heatsinkshave driven leds at full power its just the chinese are to lazy to ad in a real heat sink you just get this thermal pcb and crappy heat plate with bumps for added surface area bolted on sometimes you dont even get the thermal pcb you get an aluminm plate attached to the diodes which are then atached to a plastic pcb which warps under the diodes heating up and makes the light shit itself
think youre lackingin blue might wanna bump it up more also seen one guy on another site just using 460 and 660 and getting great buds so you prolly dont need all those spectrums either
think youre lackingin blue might wanna bump it up more also seen one guy on another site just using 460 and 660 and getting great buds so you prolly dont need all those spectrums either
The Chinese can make great shit, its usually the buyer that wants to cut corners in manufacturing, you can get amazing LED panels with all the great features from factories in China, you just have to know the right one to talk to and know what you want. But since most us won't every spend more than $1,000 on an LED light, they might not be interested in that kind of quality product for such small orders?
Some of the better companies don't even use the PCB and the diodes sit directly on finned heat sink, mine is supposed to be this way (and I can believe it with 252 3w LEDs (including fans whole thing runs 395w) the glass is barely warm, and the heat coming out the vents is warm (efficient cooling system, light produces maybe 20% as much heat as a 400w HPS)
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Hey Hudson, quick question. You ALWAYS list heat source as a plus for HID. "Better than adding a heater." How does that work for you when the lights are off and you actually need the heat?
Not trying to single you out, but you're the most recent person to bring it up. When you think about it, it doesn't eliminate the need for a heater at all...
Not trying to single you out, but you're the most recent person to bring it up. When you think about it, it doesn't eliminate the need for a heater at all...
budlover909
Active Member
if your room is insulated enough then an hid would work fine for keeping the room heated the insulation would retain heat during lights off or run the hid during the night when it's cold and leave it of during the daytime flip the light cycle opposite to the sun thats what i see bunches of growers do
budlover909
Active Member
everything uses a printed circuit board unless its directly wired
Well I know GLH said their diodes sit directly on heat sink and not PCB then heat sink. Pretty sure another company does this, sent GLH an email asking for further clarification. In comments on pics of the heat sink of a GLH panel some people said there were more breakers than normal or something, maybe thats part of it? I'm not about to take mine apart, but I just gave it a close look in all the nooks and crannies and these little holes the wires go through, I definitely can't spot any PCB and it doesn't look as if there is enough room in there between the diodes and the heat sink to fit anything.
These are pics the company owner posted months ago of a 395w 2011 light we was taking apart for forum pics (it was a 1st generation 2011, newest ones sold are a little different in wattage)