I'm going by the link I was looking at, figured it was the same ones he was talking about, nothing about 3w diodes anywhere on there is all I'm saying
Led Users Unite!
- Thread starter project fuoro
- Start date
budlover909
Active Member
dont trustadvertising get yourself a microscope look at the top of the diode look for that same patern through other diode makers and find the model being used thats what i did its either nlx-5 or nlx-6 and both are 3w diode
astroastro
Active Member
Unfortunately the terms that we are now discussing these LED lights have been set by the marketing and advertising people and, as usual, they are wrong. We really need to be discussing the LED on the basis of radiant flux or radiant flux/ Watt- not Watts. The Bridgelux NLX-5 and NLX-6 are not true 3W devices, but this is way it has been framed by the marketing people. The NLX-6 in the 60 mil package is at best a 2W device. You have to be very careful about reading the specifications of these LED's- if your cooling system is VERY good, you can perhaps exceed 1W of current injection through the device. Please read carefully the tech data stuffed at the back of the Bridgelux spec- Current Derating Curves. You must maintain exceptionally low Junction-to-Ambient resistance to run these dies at levels exceeding 1W. Anyone who thinks you are getting there with a chunk of aluminum and a fan is delusional.
Since we are looking at the Bridgelux spec sheet- you can clearly see the side view breakdown of the various layers on the chip. You can see Bridgelux is clearly a 'lateral' type device growing the GaN layers on a sapphire substrate. Thermal performance of sapphire is not good- it is not easy for the heat to beat it's way through the material to be released into ambient. This, and the lateral structure of the die itself, is the killer with these dies, but they are still much better than what you would typically expect to get from a Chinese vendor. Also, you can see the LG ad listed a whole bunch of wavelengths which are clearly NOT available from Bridgelux.
So again- what is the difference between a lateral die on sapphire vs. a vertical die like Cree- again, a lot in terms of efficiency. You put more power in but get less light out. In addition- when run at high current levels/ temperatures, this destroys the L70/ 50 lifetime characteristics- these fixtures are not going to last the claimed 50,000 hours. Of note, we regularly get Cree EZ900 blue dies at guaranteed radiant flux levels of 340mW minimum pulling from the variety of bins that all the die manufacturers make you pull from when you buy these devices- no, you can't just pick the highest power bin and pull from that one. Only a very small number of dies coming off the wafer will fall into the highest power bin. Perhaps when Bridgelux perfects their silicon epitaxy process thermal management for these dies will be somewhat easier.
I think many of the fixtures coming out of China are actually made of small LED arrays comprised of half a dozen or so small chips that they are claiming are 2 or 3W 'LED's'- I guess they can say whatever they want, however these will be very inefficient and the lifetime is in question. For the record I am not a salesman and I do not produce horticultural lights. I do some work in LED architectural lighting, street lighting, and automotive- I am not here to sell anything or promote any product of any kind- just trying to help de-mystify this LED stuff for anyone that is really interested in learning about this technology.
Since we are looking at the Bridgelux spec sheet- you can clearly see the side view breakdown of the various layers on the chip. You can see Bridgelux is clearly a 'lateral' type device growing the GaN layers on a sapphire substrate. Thermal performance of sapphire is not good- it is not easy for the heat to beat it's way through the material to be released into ambient. This, and the lateral structure of the die itself, is the killer with these dies, but they are still much better than what you would typically expect to get from a Chinese vendor. Also, you can see the LG ad listed a whole bunch of wavelengths which are clearly NOT available from Bridgelux.
So again- what is the difference between a lateral die on sapphire vs. a vertical die like Cree- again, a lot in terms of efficiency. You put more power in but get less light out. In addition- when run at high current levels/ temperatures, this destroys the L70/ 50 lifetime characteristics- these fixtures are not going to last the claimed 50,000 hours. Of note, we regularly get Cree EZ900 blue dies at guaranteed radiant flux levels of 340mW minimum pulling from the variety of bins that all the die manufacturers make you pull from when you buy these devices- no, you can't just pick the highest power bin and pull from that one. Only a very small number of dies coming off the wafer will fall into the highest power bin. Perhaps when Bridgelux perfects their silicon epitaxy process thermal management for these dies will be somewhat easier.
I think many of the fixtures coming out of China are actually made of small LED arrays comprised of half a dozen or so small chips that they are claiming are 2 or 3W 'LED's'- I guess they can say whatever they want, however these will be very inefficient and the lifetime is in question. For the record I am not a salesman and I do not produce horticultural lights. I do some work in LED architectural lighting, street lighting, and automotive- I am not here to sell anything or promote any product of any kind- just trying to help de-mystify this LED stuff for anyone that is really interested in learning about this technology.
budlover909
Active Member
"The Bridgelux NLX-5 and NLX-6 are not true 3W devices, but this is way it has been framed by the marketing people."
you better read the spec sheet again bro maximum dc forward current 1000miliamps opertingvoltage 3.0-3.6v that's 3-3.6w http://www.bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/BXCD6060DatasheetDS-C12.pdf
"you can perhaps exceed 1W of current injection through the device."
current is amps not watts bro
"Anyone who thinks you are getting there with a chunk of aluminum and a fan is delusional."
tel me how computer makers do it then bro transistors are ust as sensitive to heat as diodes and they got no power cramming 200w intoa procesor and letting 50+% leak out i dont think you know what youre talking about
"Thermal performance of sapphire is not good-"
do you know why diodes are saphire based bro its because sapphire expands and contracts at almos tthe same rate as the p-n layer this keeps the dide layers from separatingfrom different rates of thermal contraction and expanson almost no other material comes close to having the same prperties
"Also, you can see the LG ad listed a whole bunch of wavelengths which are clearly NOT available from Bridgelux."
one quick call to bridgelux says youre wrong again they say they have almost any wavelength minus ir and uv available they just dont sel it publicly you gotta as for it
for someone suposedly in the business you dont seem to know too much on the other hand google and phone cals to sources tel me much more
you better read the spec sheet again bro maximum dc forward current 1000miliamps opertingvoltage 3.0-3.6v that's 3-3.6w http://www.bridgelux.com/assets/products_portfolio/BXCD6060DatasheetDS-C12.pdf
"you can perhaps exceed 1W of current injection through the device."
current is amps not watts bro
"Anyone who thinks you are getting there with a chunk of aluminum and a fan is delusional."
tel me how computer makers do it then bro transistors are ust as sensitive to heat as diodes and they got no power cramming 200w intoa procesor and letting 50+% leak out i dont think you know what youre talking about
"Thermal performance of sapphire is not good-"
do you know why diodes are saphire based bro its because sapphire expands and contracts at almos tthe same rate as the p-n layer this keeps the dide layers from separatingfrom different rates of thermal contraction and expanson almost no other material comes close to having the same prperties
"Also, you can see the LG ad listed a whole bunch of wavelengths which are clearly NOT available from Bridgelux."
one quick call to bridgelux says youre wrong again they say they have almost any wavelength minus ir and uv available they just dont sel it publicly you gotta as for it
for someone suposedly in the business you dont seem to know too much on the other hand google and phone cals to sources tel me much more
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Damn astro just got served! Lesson to the folks at home... do some research before you spout off!
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Ive been emailing the admin monthly requesting an LED sub-forum and have not been getting any responses back. I call forth all LED users and those interested in the future of LED growing to do the same.
Id like to see separate threads for different topics like panel brands, diode manufacturers, effects of various light spectrums, temp control, etc. basically a place for everything that's been discussed and lost in here and more.
Please take the time to show RIU that the LED community is alive and growing, and we'd like representation
Id like to see separate threads for different topics like panel brands, diode manufacturers, effects of various light spectrums, temp control, etc. basically a place for everything that's been discussed and lost in here and more.
Please take the time to show RIU that the LED community is alive and growing, and we'd like representation
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Truth. There is a growing number of LED users on here
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Just called Gotham aka Blackstar to inquire about their warranty and it's only 1 year!? They advertise these things will go 55,000 hours of use which is over 10 years on 12/12 and they cover it for less than 10% of it? How does that give me any confidence in their product? Gonna go scope everyone else's warranties. I recall someone saying their Blackdog or something had a 3 year. That's legit
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
ISIS/Magnum have 3 year warranties....
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think black dog has a three year warranty. I just got an email from their guy corey this morning because I asked about their product prices. They got back to me quick with a price listing. I've been buying from advanced led lights and theirs is a 3 year warranty, ive been very happy with their products and customer service. But black dog is quickly becoming another company I'm interested in doing business with
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Cool I'll check them out.
Any idea if they pull what they're advertised at?
They're pricey too! Same with Blackdog. If I wanted to drop $600+ I'd definitely go Magnum. I'm not ready spend that and eliminate my HID without a cheaper test alternative. I think it's gonna be Spectra 180 or ISIS 170. The Spectra costs more but it's actual draw at 180 where ISIS is 120 or something. I posted it earlier in this thread.
Any idea if they pull what they're advertised at?
They're pricey too! Same with Blackdog. If I wanted to drop $600+ I'd definitely go Magnum. I'm not ready spend that and eliminate my HID without a cheaper test alternative. I think it's gonna be Spectra 180 or ISIS 170. The Spectra costs more but it's actual draw at 180 where ISIS is 120 or something. I posted it earlier in this thread.
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Wow Spectra offers 5 years and it's journal proven by irishboy. Might have just sold me
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Those spectras, isis/magnums are also worth checking out. Advanced led pulls as advertised, so the 180 actually pulls 180. From what I understand based on what info black dog provided to me in email is that their products pull pretty close to advertised, the 220 pulls 200, 360 does 325, 450 does 400, 700 does 560 for their 3w makes. They also have a 5w panel id be intetested in seeing in action
ColoradoLove
Well-Known Member
Yea I'm not comfortable dropping that kinda coin on my first LED run. Maybe down the road. I'm still at some level a skeptic
dunit
Active Member
Blackdog sure looks interesting and that panel with 5W individual diodes REALLY sounds intersting. Can't find any journal running them yet so hopefully someone takes the plunge soon. My big concern right now is when I do the math on their 3W panels and use number of LED's and actual draw it works out to almost 2.5 watts per LED and there's just no way that's accurate. Even the $9 a crack prototype CREE 3 watters only run at 2.1 and 1.3-1.7 is far more typical for the panels that are out there.
puffenuff
Well-Known Member
Good catch, your math appears to be correct. That's something I'm sure theyd help you figure out if you called them up and asked, especially since they make the claim that theirs pull up to and over 2.5w per 3w chip. I saw someone running the bd220 here on riu, will have to fo back and look for it again
ninjagaiden
Well-Known Member
mmmm 2xSpectra 290's should be here this week. Going to start a journal (somewhere else most likeley but will post a link), growing some of REZ's SD IBLS 