Japan:

Ernst

Well-Known Member
The Japanese Public Debate on the radiation is turning angry.

The Japanese media is mum on the issue since it is sponsored by the Corporation who own the Nuclear plant.

The talk now is to cover the whole plant is a giant sheet of something?

Interesting.. Radiation continues to leak into the ground water, the air and into the lives of the Japanese.
Source: Al Jazeera news.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
Check this out guys. BTW, I'm leaving in the morning. Can't wait to get back to my family.:grin:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110405/ts_yblog_thelookout/japanese-nuclear-plant-worker-discusses-choice-to-sacrifice-his-life




As Japan continues to grapple with catastrophic radiation leaks at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daichii nuclear complex, the plant's remaining workers have shown heroic dedication in the face of a task that amounts to a likely suicide mission.
The global audience following the Japanese nuclear drama has learned a little about these selfless heroes. But some of the most basic questions about them--who they are and what has motivated them to make the ultimate sacrifice--have gone unanswered. Now, however, the Agence France Press reporter Kimi De Freytas has published an interview with one of the Fukushima workers that sheds considerable light on how they understand their mission--and how they are holding up under under the extraordinary, mortal stress they are facing.
Hiroyuki Kohno, a 44-year-old plant worker who's been employed in the nuclear industry since he was a teenager, promptly answered the emergency call issued by his employer, a subcontractor for the Tokyo Electric Power Company. Shortly after last March's devastating earthquake and tsunami produced a power outage at the facility, Kohno's employers sent out an all-hands appeal via email.
"Attention. We would like you to come work at the plant. Can you?" De Freytas reports the email read. Kohno, who has worked at the Fukushima facility for the past decade, said he knew what the implications of heeding the call would be.
"To be honest, no one wants to go," Kohno told De Freytas. "Radiation levels at the plant are unbelievably high compared with normal conditions. I know that when I go this time, I will return with a body no longer capable of work at a nuclear plant."
Kohno told De Freytas that as a single man with no children, he felt obligated to answer the call and join the team that the media has dubbed the "Fukushima Fifty." Better that he face the risk, he explained, so as to spare his colleagues who have dependents counting on them. Besides, he added, the workers in the plant are his brothers and sisters, and he feels an allegiance to them.
"There's a Japanese expression: 'We eat from the same bowl.' These are friends I shared pain and laughter with. That's why I'm going," he explained to De Freytas.
Other workers among the Fukushima Fifty have apparently discussed the dire prospects ahead fairly openly. As the unidentified mother of a 32-year-old plant worker explained in a tearful phone interview with Fox News, "My son and his colleagues have discussed it at length and they have committed themselves to die if necessary to save the nation." Meanwhile, plant officials have sought to supplement the ranks of workers seeking to contain the spread of radioactive contamination from the facility with workers known as "jumpers"—contract employees who agree to complete designated tasks before fleeing in the hopes that they can shun sustained radioactive exposure. Workers in the "jumper" corps are being offered as much as $5,000 a day, Reuters reports—and many are still turning the offers down.
While the fate of Kohno and his fellow workers remains uncertain, their fellow citizens are already determined to commemorate their heroism.
(Photo of Fukushima plant workers trying to cool reactor: Tokyo Electric Power Co./AP)
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
That was a great picture of two ( 3? ), soon to be dead people spraying green shit.

This will end up many many times worse than Chernobyl, rumors have it that by the end we will have 3 or 4 Nuclear meltdowns there, Japan might not be inhabitable for 270,000 years or more. That Plutonium is some real bad shit, deadliest substance known to mankind, 1 microgram will kill every living thing it comes in contact with for the next 270,000 years.
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
That was a great picture of two ( 3? ), soon to be dead people spraying green shit.
Yeah, these guys are fucked and they know it too. Man, I just don't know if I could do something like that. I'll take calculated risks, but I don't think I could do that shit! Those guys are TRUE heroes.:cry:
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I want to envision the Scene out of Star Trek II The wrath of Khan ( The only good Star Trek movie IMO and the very best acting By Ricardo Montalban) where Spock goes into the Dilithium Crystal chamber and realigns it, ultimately (seemingly) dooming himself to the effects of the radiation.

[video=youtube;Xa6c3OTr6yA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA&feature=related[/video]
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
We really need to learn from these events. Nuclear isnt so clean after all is it?
When they go wrong, they go REALLY wrong! Many countries are too dependent on it too make a switch now. All we can hope for is better safety standards, better technology and more respect for something that can not only be deadly, but can create vast wastelands for a long, LONG time! Real estate is only getting more scarce. We don't need to be ruining anymore of it.:cry:
 

secretweapon

Active Member
When they go wrong, they go REALLY wrong! Many countries are too dependent on it too make a switch now. All we can hope for is better safety standards, better technology and more respect for something that can not only be deadly, but can create vast wastelands for a long, LONG time! Real estate is only getting more scarce. We don't need to be ruining anymore of it.:cry:
...regulation? Jk.
I saw a documentary on chernobyl about how the animals took it back over. It could be the way the earth is cleansing itself from people. Seriously though we need to stop fucking up our planet.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
...regulation? Jk.
I saw a documentary on chernobyl about how the animals took it back over. It could be the way the earth is cleansing itself from people. Seriously though we need to stop fucking up our planet.
Chernobyl didn't have the much deadlier MOX(Mixed Oxide: Plutonium + Uranium) fuel that the Fukushima reactor #3 one uses. MOX uses Plutonium, the other nuclear fuels do not. Plutonium 239 and 241 are not available in nature they are created by splitting atoms. Most Nuclear fuels are done with just Uranium. Uranium is much less reactive and weakly radioactive compared to Plutonium.

France derives 75% of its energy from Nuclear. Bet they aren't feeling very safe right now.
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
Nice one Doc..

We in America don't reward that level of quality in our culture.

We deny health care to our first responders. I'm guessing these people won't need to sell the home they own to get treatment after they risk their lives.

Truly amazing heroism wrapped in ordinary Japanese mores.


Have a Safe flight Doc.
 

sharon1

Active Member


I apologize for the length of this, but I copied this from an email I rec'd from my aunt in Chicago. After weeks of listening to the media that's trying to sensationalize these events and scaring the public half to death, it was refreshing to read this.
The author of this sounds like he knows what he's talking about....he at least identifies himself and makes himself available and responsible for it's contents.
Enjoy the read, and maybe this will end some of the panic some may be feeling after watching what the American soap-opera-newscasts are spewing.




Here’s a little more measured and accurate article than what you have been seeing in the media about what’s going on at the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant. It’s written by the Dean of Engineering at the University of Washington, but he’s written it pretty much in laymen’s language so it’s comprehensible to us mere mortals.

For those of you who are concerned about what has happened in Japan, the below article should, I hope, put your mind to rest.

The Japanese built well and responded with great professionalism. My hat's off to them.

The media did its normal job of sensationalism and yellow journalism. Nothing more or less than is expected of them. Little wonder that the media is held in the same regard as is Congress. Bedfellows in a third-rate romance, low-rent rendezvous.


The news media blew the event completely out of control by sensationalizing their sense of the danger involved. They made it sound like there was severe danger to the west coast from radioactive gasses carrying across the pacific.

They had no knowledge, and acquired none before reporting. They only reported their personal uninformed opinions instead of facts.

They should be held accountable for their actions, but won't be.

NEVER trust the news media, and take the info they report in context with their known agendas.
Most of them are anti nuclear to begin with and are part of the crowd that has prevented Calif. from building power plants to supply their electrical needs.

This is an excellent explanation of what really happened at Fukushima, and what was done to control and contain the damage. It was written by a Bill Andrews and forwarded by the Dean of Engineering at the University of Washington. The author did an excellent job of explaining what happened in terms that do not require advanced degrees in nuclear engineering to understand.
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What happened at Fukushima

I will try to summarize the main facts. The earthquake that hit Japan was 5 times more powerful than the worst earthquake the nuclear power plant was built for (the Richter scale works logarithmically; the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 5 times, not 0.7). So the first hooray for Japanese engineering, everything held up.

When the earthquake hit with 8.9, the nuclear reactors all went into automatic shutdown. Within seconds after the earthquake started, the control rods had been inserted into the core and nuclear chain reaction of the uranium stopped. Now, the cooling system has to carry away the residual heat. The residual heat load is about 3% of the heat load under normal operating conditions. The earthquake destroyed the external power supply of the nuclear reactor. That is one of the most serious accidents for a nuclear power plant, and accordingly, a plant black out receives a lot of attention when designing backup systems. The power is needed to keep the coolant pumps working. Since the power plant had been shut down, it cannot produce any electricity by itself any more.

Things were going well for an hour. One set of multiple sets of emergency Diesel power generators kicked in and provided the electricity that was needed. Then the Tsunami came, much bigger than people had expected when building the power plant. The tsunami took out all multiple sets of backup Diesel generators.
When designing a nuclear power plant, engineers follow a philosophy called Defense of Depth. That means that you first build everything to withstand the worst catastrophe you can imagine, and then design the plant in such a way that it can still handle one system failure (that you thought could never happen) after the other. A tsunami taking out all backup power in one swift strike is such a scenario. The last line of defense is putting everything into the third containment, that will keep everything, whatever the mess, control rods in our out, core molten or not, inside the reactor.

When the diesel generators were gone, the reactor operators switched to emergency battery power. The batteries were designed as one of the backups to the backups, to provide power for cooling the core for 8 hours. And they did.

Within the 8 hours, another power source had to be found and connected to the power plant. The power grid was down due to the earthquake. The diesel generators were destroyed by the tsunami. So mobile diesel generators were trucked in.

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.

At this point the plant operators begin to follow emergency procedures that are in place for a loss of cooling event. It is again a step along the Depth of Defense lines. The power to the cooling systems should never have failed completely, but it did, so they retreat to the next line of defense. All of this, however shocking it seems to us, is part of the day-to-day training you go through as an operator, right through to managing a core meltdown.

It was at this stage that people started to talk about core meltdown. Because at the end of the day, if cooling cannot be restored, the core will eventually melt (after hours or days), and the last line of defense, the core catcher and third containment, would come into play.

But the goal at this stage was to manage the core while it was heating up, and ensure that the first containment (the Zircaloy tubes that contains the nuclear fuel), as well as the second containment remain intact and operational for as long as possible, to give the engineers time to fix the cooling systems.

Because cooling the core is such a big deal, the reactor has a number of cooling systems, each in multiple versions (the reactor water cleanup system, the decay heat removal, the reactor core isolating cooling, the standby liquid cooling system, and the emergency core cooling system). Which one failed when or did not fail is not clear at this point in time.

So imagine a pressure cooker on the stove, heat on low, but on. The operators use whatever cooling system capacity they have to get rid of as much heat as possible, but the pressure starts building up. The priority now is to maintain integrity of the first containment (keep temperature of the fuel rods below 2200C), as well as the second containment, the pressure cooker. In order to maintain integrity of the pressure cooker (the second containment), the pressure has to be released from time to time. Because the ability to do that in an emergency is so important, the reactor has 11 pressure release valves. The operators now started venting steam from time to time to control the pressure. The temperature at this stage was about 550C.

This is when the reports about radiation leakage starting coming in. I believe I explained above why venting the steam is theoretically the same as releasing radiation into the environment, but why it was and is not dangerous. The radioactive nitrogen as well as the noble gases does not pose a threat to human health.
At some stage during this venting, the explosion occurred... The explosion took place outside of the third containment (our last line of defense), and the reactor building

Remember that the reactor building has no function in keeping the radioactivity contained. It is not entirely clear yet what has happened, but this is the likely scenario: The operators decided to vent the steam from the pressure vessel not directly into the environment, but into the space between the third containment and the reactor building (to give the radioactivity in the steam more time to subside). The problem is that at the high temperatures that the core had reached at this stage, water molecules can disassociate into oxygen and hydrogen an explosive mixture.

And it did explode, outside the third containment, damaging the reactor building around. It was that sort of explosion, but inside the pressure vessel (because it was badly designed and not managed properly by the operators) that lead to the explosion of Chernobyl. This was never a risk at Fukushima. The problem of hydrogen-oxygen formation is one of the biggies when you design a power plant (if you are not Soviet, that is), so the reactor is built and operated in a way it cannot happen inside the containment. It happened outside, which was not intended but a possible scenario and OK, because it did not pose a risk for the containment.
So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed. Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail
.
And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay radioactive Cesium and Iodine started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.

It seems this was the go signal for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.

The water used in the cooling system is very clean, dematerialized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no affect whatsoever on the core it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated. Slightly radioactive) water.
But Plan A had failed cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:

In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is liquid control rod. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.
The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.

Now, where does that leave us? My assessment:

The plant is safe now and will stay safe...

Japan is looking at an INES Level 4 Accident: Nuclear accident with local consequences. That is bad for the company that owns the plant, but not for anyone else.

Some radiation was released when the pressure vessel was vented. All radioactive isotopes from the activated steam have gone (decayed). A very small amount of Cesium was released, as well as Iodine. If you were sitting on top of the plants chimney when they were venting, you should probably give up smoking to return to your former life expectancy. The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again.

There was some limited damage to the first containment. That means that some amounts of radioactive Cesium and Iodine will also be released into the cooling water, but no Uranium or other nasty stuff (the Uranium oxide does not dissolve in the water). There are facilities for treating the cooling water inside the third containment. The radioactive Cesium and Iodine will be removed there and eventually stored as radioactive waste in terminal storage.

The seawater used as cooling water will be activated to some degree. Because the control rods are fully inserted, the Uranium chain reaction is not happening. That means the main nuclear reaction is not happening, thus not contributing to the activation. The intermediate radioactive materials (Cesium and Iodine) are also almost gone at this stage, because the Uranium decay was stopped a long time ago. This further reduces the activation. The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.
The seawater will then be replaced over time with the normal cooling water

The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.

Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.

The safety systems on all Japanese plants will be upgraded to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami (or worse)

(Updated) I believe the most significant problem will be a prolonged power shortage. 11 of Japans 55 nuclear reactors in different plants were shut down and will have to be inspected, directly reducing the nation’s nuclear power generating capacity by 20%, with nuclear power accounting for about 30% of the national total power generation capacity.
I have not looked into possible consequences for other nuclear plants not directly affected. This will probably be covered by running gas power plants that are usually only used for peak loads to cover some of the base load as well.

I am not familiar with Japan’s energy supply chain for oil, gas and coal, and what damage the harbors, refinery, storage and transportation networks have suffered, as well as damage to the national distribution grid. All of that will increase your electricity bill, as well as lead to power shortages during peak demand and reconstruction efforts, in Japan.

This all is only part of a much bigger picture. Emergency response has to deal with shelter, drinking water, food and medical care, transportation and communication infrastructure, as well as electricity supply. In a world of lean supply chains, we are looking at some major challenges in all of these areas.

If you want to stay informed, please forget the usual media outlets and consult the following websites:

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Battle_to_stabilise_earthquake_reactors_1203111.html
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Venting_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_3_1303111.html
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/12/japan-nuclear-earthquake/
http://ansnuclearcafe.org/2011/03/11/media-updates-on-nuclear-power-stations-in-japan/

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Taylor Matalone <[email protected]> wrote:
The Dean of Engineering sent this explanation of the nuclear situation in Japan. Apparently, the author (Bill Andrews) knows a lot about nuclear reactors and provides a non-sensationalized explanation.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html



--
Paul Faust
Midori-cho 5-3
Ashiya, Japan 659-0042
TEL: 0797-32 8680 [+81-797-32-8680]
FAX: 0797-23-5012 [+81-797-23-5012]
CEL: 090-3941-3489 / [email protected]
E-Mail: [email protected]
Skype: phfaust
MagicJack: 207-809-6690

 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
and unfortunately the letter is a bunch of rubbish, it was written weeks ago and does nothing to explain the terrible events that have been unfolding over there. No longer a level 4 event, they upped it to the maximum level 7 last month. It also does not explain the much more deadly Plutonium in Reactor #3.

the letter states there will be low levels of radioactive seawater released, Well if 11 million times the safe limit is considered low, ( Cuz thats what they are measuring now) then I think the guy that wrote this letter is going to be shunned from the scientific community for imbecilism for quite some time. Northern Japan can say goodbye to the fishing industry for the next few millenia. Fishing isn't important to Japan is it?
 

doc111

Well-Known Member
and unfortunately the letter is a bunch of rubbish, it was written weeks ago and does nothing to explain the terrible events that have been unfolding over there. No longer a level 4 event, they upped it to the maximum level 7 last month. It also does not explain the much more deadly Plutonium in Reactor #3.

the letter states there will be low levels of radioactive seawater released, Well if 11 million times the safe limit is considered low, ( Cuz thats what they are measuring now) then I think the guy that wrote this letter is going to be shunned from the scientific community for imbecilism for quite some time. Northern Japan can say goodbye to the fishing industry for the next few millenia. Fishing isn't important to Japan is it?
Agreed. This is much worse than they are telling us. I'm not a fearmonger and I do have a better than average understanding of radioactivity and it's dangers. The map of the radoactivity cloud taking out the western third of the U.S. was B.S. but the radioactivity at the plant and surrounding areas is really high. Alarmingly so! This is PART of my reasoning for not staying longer. I've been exposed to higher than normal background radiation for almost 3 weeks now. I'm not too concerned about it, but staying much longer would've been foolish IMO. I wish I could do more and I certainly wish the Japanese people all the best. About the best we can hope for is they come up with some sort of technology to deal with this radioactivity. At present there really isn't anything that can be done but avoid the area for millenia.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
[video=google;-5384001427276447319]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5384001427276447319#[/video]
 

Carne Seca

Well-Known Member
Thank you, weed-smoking Panda, I knew you'd bite. To answer your asinine query (where have you been since I first posted on this topic?) "What does the nuclear crisis have to do with the character of the Japanese?": It is called payback for Nanking, you know...KARMA!
Oh spleenfarter.. you're so cute when you're trolling. Wanna make out?
 

Ernst

Well-Known Member
It is a lovely thing to read. We appreciate the contrast.

What I especially liked was the grammar. Translated concepts from one culture into the language of another offer clues to it's place in the wisdom of the Ages.

We have handled issues of Black and White I think we can afford some liberty to one who is truly outside our cycle.. Our Inner Circle.

I for one would love to read more from what that side of things thinks..
We have nothing to fear. They are the ones with poisonous radiation.

We may not agree with the press release concept of news but I understand the structural necessity for such controlled and delayed presentation.

Losing Face is the greatest shame and these people have more than one face shamed by this disaster which isn't their fault alone. No one has nuclear technology industry the World doesn't approve of.

So yeah it's worse and day by day but that sort of communication is made of respect not political popularity.
We were gifted a rare post.

I warn you will have to face the music on a second round but thanks for the effort!
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
It took 500,000 people to clean up after Chernobyl. 24 hours a day 7 days a week non stop for 7 months they worked on it.
 
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