Poll : Will you vote for legalizing for just the people this time and not business?

[a mongo frog]

Medical will not go away.

But how about something like prop 215 that gives non-medical rights and also eliminates plant limits for medical?
Oh add protect you on the job too.

We will get what we fight for..
We get nothing if we don't fight!

thell never eliminate plant counts and they shouldnt. not every one wants to smell pot all over the neighbor hood. i luv the smell but alot of people dont. your thinking very selfish now.

 

[Ernst]

What is our problem? We settle before we have a negotiation.

Sure there has to be community respect but we have to have the rights first before we can compromise.

We are giving up before we even try...

Seriously.. There are Cannabis Millionaires while people still go to jail for cannabis.

You want to defend that? Keep injustice as the best we can do?

I'm sure these people making bank really don't care about Rights any more now that money is flowing.

 

[a mongo frog]

u r promoting big buisness u might as well just kick the little guys in the balls. imo u r riu #1 political guy and now this. 19 was already stopped. california has done a good job with 215. all u have to do is stub your toe in california to get a card. so what does that tell u.

 

[Ernst]

No leave the medical industry in place.
Let the areas that want to expand that to all people do so but skip the mandate to do an all in one for 2012 or 2014 if we have to.

Legalize for the people so that we have that on the books come the day the Feds have to incorporate all the States into a Federal law to legalize for the people.

I'm not saying local jurisdictions won't have regulatory powers just that it should be a uniform State level permit system.

And about Nuisance complaints? That is what court is for..

Dare to want more!

[video=youtube;w5dgAszVslA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5dgAszVslA[/video]

We cannot have what we do not ask for and we will not get it if we don't get up and stand up! Not even those who sell us bud will fight for rights if the rest of us are asleep!

 

[Ernst]

u r promoting big business u might as well just kick the little guys in the balls. imo u r riu #1 political guy and now this. 19 was already stopped. California has done a good job with 215. all u have to do is stub your toe in California to get a card. so what does that tell u.

I'm not promoting business at all for a first prop 215 like step.

Just legalize for non-commercial uses and horticulture for the people first.

 

[undertheice]

If we say this applies to private citizens not engaged in commercial activities we are limiting scope to just the people not in business. Horticulture rights is what I am saying..
The right to grow and breed plants as a private citizen.

so you are demanding that the smoker must also be the grower? of the millions who partake of our wonderful weed, only a fraction of those are growers. what you advocate is, once again, not legalization. the idea of legalization is to give access to anyone, not just people like you and i, who have the ability to grow our own. it's about the realization that everyone should have the right to consume what is essentially a harmless plant, that we own ourselves and should have the right to do with our bodies as we please.

.....please explain why business and private citizens are one thing.

business and the people are not one thing. business is simply what people do. we buy and sell, we make things and perform services for the promise of future goods and services (that's all money really is), we interact and exchange that which we have for those things we don't. trade is one of the cornerstones of society. without it we only have access to that which we ourselves can produce and no man is capable of doing everything. from the simple one on one of basic barter to multinational conglomerates, it is all business.

 

[Ernst]

so you are demanding that the smoker must also be the grower? of the millions who partake of our wonderful weed, only a fraction of those are growers. what you advocate is, once again, not legalization. the idea of legalization is to give access to anyone, not just people like you and i, who have the ability to grow our own. it's about the realization that everyone should have the right to consume what is essentially a harmless plant, that we own ourselves and should have the right to do with our bodies as we please.

business and the people are not one thing. business is simply what people do. we buy and sell, we make things and perform services for the promise of future goods and services (that's all money really is), we interact and exchange that which we have for those things we don't. trade is one of the cornerstones of society. without it we only have access to that which we ourselves can produce and no man is capable of doing everything. from the simple one on one of basic barter to multinational conglomerates, it is all business.

No there is business already. I wouldn't want to see any language that interferes with other possible freedoms. Just focus on the people. Pass the laws and then work from there.

What I am pointing out is two strikes for all or nothing and one home run for prop 215.

That to advance the cause we must find a common denominator to support and that would be rights for private citizens in non-commercial activities related to cannabis.

I don't think you have a chance of beating this logic.

Lets take a safe and solid first step and grant rights to the private citizen for non-commercial use, growing and sharing of cannabis in 2012.
To take that first logical, safe, sound, easy to read and understand on a ballot step in 2012 is better than another gamble with the people's rights on an all or nothing attempt in 2012 or beyond.

Can you defeat this? Look at the numbers..
over 80% think it's the right idea.

Can Industry get off the backs of the people this cycle?
Can we free the weed for folks and worry about business law later?
Hell even at the same time but separate initiatives.
Call it "al la cart" legalization.

 

[undertheice]

Lets take a safe and solid first step and grant rights to the private citizen for non-commercial use, growing and sharing of cannabis in 2012.

so now it's changed to grow and share. i suppose you want unlimited grow space so you can give all that weed away. i'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt. i'll let you believe you've convinced me of your altruistic designs. well, you're probably one of twelve people in the whole state that are going to be giving this shit away. everyone else and their brother is going to sell off their excess at whatever price the market will bear.

why don't we just cut through the bullshit and admit what you're advocating. you want sales (business), but you want to exclude existing corporate entities from this new marketplace. i've tried to get you to understand that the business community is just another part of the larger community, but your liberal bias just won't allow you to admit that this is true. you said it all yourself when you said "Can Industry get off the backs of the people this cycle?" and made obvious your intent. you have that disease that demands you see industry as a whole as the enemy and blinds you to the benefits it imparts to our society. that you can't see this for the selfishness and envy that it is speaks volumes on the true nature of this grand california liberalism that you embrace.

you seem to think that polling at 90% on a marijuana site is some proof of a mandate. the naivete of your outlook is astonishing. the real world does not consist of a bunch of stoners sitting at their computers and choosing between these skewed options you've given. to legalize we must gain the approval of many segments of society, including business and the concerned but ignorant taxpayer. without at least their partial support we are doomed to another round of defeat.

 

[Ernst]

so now it's changed to grow and share. i suppose you want unlimited grow space so you can give all that weed away. i'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt. i'll let you believe you've convinced me of your altruistic designs. well, you're probably one of twelve people in the whole state that are going to be giving this shit away. everyone else and their brother is going to sell off their excess at whatever price the market will bear.

why don't we just cut through the bullshit and admit what you're advocating. you want sales (business), but you want to exclude existing corporate entities from this new marketplace. i've tried to get you to understand that the business community is just another part of the larger community, but your liberal bias just won't allow you to admit that this is true. you said it all yourself when you said "Can Industry get off the backs of the people this cycle?" and made obvious your intent. you have that disease that demands you see industry as a whole as the enemy and blinds you to the benefits it imparts to our society. that you can't see this for the selfishness and envy that it is speaks volumes on the true nature of this grand california liberalism that you embrace.

you seem to think that polling at 90% on a marijuana site is some proof of a mandate. the naivete of your outlook is astonishing. the real world does not consist of a bunch of stoners sitting at their computers and choosing between these skewed options you've given. to legalize we must gain the approval of many segments of society, including business and the concerned but ignorant taxpayer. without at least their partial support we are doomed to another round of defeat.

It hasn't changed but you have .. http://california2012.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=202

I am championing the Five things actually but then I already posted that on about 100 sites by now.

So we here are assholes according to you. Nice one..

It's this idea that a world is it's economics is the thing that is insane.

Well what say you? Want to score some of my genetics? I am smoking Tiki-Jo Sweet here.

 

[Ernst]

While not a spit-polished political campaign I wrote the Five Things a while back.

Simple is Success in 2012..

The 5 Things!

1. Make 18 the legal age ( See Note 1 )
2. Create one central tax and regulate State level authority. ( See Note 2 )
3. Allow California citizens to exchange cannabis with other California citizens ( See note 3 )
4. A medical Bill of rights to protect the rights of medical people ( See note 4 )
5. Horticulture rights for all California Citizens with Cannabis ( See note 5 )
If we keep it simple and anyone can understand what they are voting on we have a chance to pass legislation to legalize for all the people. If we crowd onto an Initiative for the people framework for Industry and State Drug policy we are sure to fail again.

Look I really don't want to be doing this for 2014 so if we can just see through the Capitalism to see the "Trees for all equally." We can go back to living in the Forest.

I invite y'all to visit my lonely site.. http://california2012.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=202

 

[Ernst]

What I am afraid of is another wasted voting cycle.

There are Cannabis Millionaires at the same time people go to prison for cannabis.

I strongly believe that cannabis industry can afford to waste another election cycle but we can't.

I also know it is hard to get cannabis people to organize to demand full horticulture rights for themselves. We automatically look for a way to compromise since we are reasonable people for the most part but now is the time to stand up and let our communities know we are demanding rights for people this time above all else.
So far I seem to be the only one insisting on rights for people only this cycle as a safe first step.

I really wouldn't count on the numbers being much different between 2010 and 2012 if we try an "All in one" initiative in 2012.

Why not take a safe first step?

That is what I am saying. Albeit with all my human flaws exposed.

I believe that a simpler "for the people" initiative is the only way.
Industry will still make money if an all or nothing initiative fails so it can risk a chance since it has a lobby in Washington D.C.
We people on the other hand still lose our jobs and go to jail.

I may well get very excited on this issue but who is calling for full right for the people besides me?

 

[Ernst]

The only debates to decide what version of legalization we will have a "Road Show" that unless you pay you are not welcomed to be a part of.

So already Canna-Industry is planning what freedom you will have and they are not asking you because you could get in their way!

GET UP AND DEMAND CANNABIS FREEDOM FOR THE PEOPLE IN 2012!
<bump>

By this poll count you all believe that a simple for the people initiative in 2012 that simply legalizes for the people and skips the business and business law aspects is the way to go.

 

[Ernst]

Well we are in the Wake of the pay-for-view debates in Hollywood I think the idea of legalizing just for the people this time is starting to get around.

I just wrote my local paper encouraging those who voted no to support legalization for the people.
<bump>

 

[Ernst]

This is what brought me here.

My My My how the dynamics change.

Please consider this vote

 

[Ernst]

Wow the forum has grown and our Politics are more fun than ever.

So California people.. What do you think of a Safe first step of Horticulture rights for the people?
<bump>

 

[Dan Kone]

This is an experiment of choice.

Question: Will you vote in 2012 to legalize only for the people and not business in 2012?

Please keep replies hate free.

absolutely not.

It should be legal and the ability to legally grow and sell commercially is part of that. People can paint me as some evil greedy capitalist all they want, but that's bullshit. Growing and selling cannabis is honest work as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to apologize for my life nor will it tolerate it being demonized without speaking up for myself.

I want to have a for-profit non-medical dispensary. I want the government to recognize that this is perfectly ok to do. I want to pay my fair share of taxes on the money I earn. These days I guess that makes me a horrible person, but whatever. Say hi to the bad guy.

 

[Ernst]

Hey Dan.

This is not and either or situation just a separate Initiative situation.

What I point I am promoting is we must separate the issues into different Initiatives.
I'm sure you want the common citizen to be granted full horticulture rights.
I'm sure you want business rights.
The idea is to play it safe and separate the issues for separate Initiatives. One may go down but the other may survive. An All or Nothing initiative is not the answer.
The theory is that many no voters voted no because of the deal prop 19 offered and also since Red Counties do not want business but, some of those will vote yes for private people if the "drug pushing" business isn't part of it.

So to be sure we get something lets not do an all or nothing initiative. We all should sacrifice to get the people their freedom and not make them carry some all or nothing that more than likely will fail/
We are making the initiatives too complex for the average voter. We bit off more than we could shoe with prop 19. Prop 215 simple for the people is the way to move forward.

The way it is Dan is an all or nothing like prop 19 for 2012 will keep those making money legally now in business and the people lose another 2 years if it fails.
Prop 215 has been the only widely supported legalization so we must follow the winning format. Legalize for the people.
And if we cannot legalize for the people we cannot pass legalize for business.

Lets do it all but people first business second.

It's time for business to sacrifice for the benefit of the people and it's self.

Here is a cut and paste from another thread for you to consider.

-------------

Already people such as myself are pointing out that public debate has been limited to pay-for-view forums in Berkeley and Hollywood and that points the heavy handed finger at Cannabis Industry drafting another "All or Nothing" Initiative.
An All or Nothing Initiative seeks to tie all the issues associated with cannabis into one package so that we birth a new child of liberty in that image. Remember Rosemary's Baby?

What I, a lowly worker of this world, want most is freedom to practice proper horticulture. I want to have freedom to have heirloom varieties, to do seed saving and seed saving exchanges with people all over the state. I want to grow all the plants I can or feel like and also want to be able to exchange cannabis with other common folks such as myself.
So is it time for some left-wing cannabis freedom for the common man?
Perhaps that term "Left-Wing" has you wondering where your firearm is?
Lets change that to another concept. A concept of American cooperation and team effort; Baseball.
If the state of Cannabis legalization in California was a Baseball game then the score with the pro-cannabis team still at bat is two strikes for Prop-19s', One Home Run for Prop 215 and we are trying to decide which hitter should bat next.
Should it be another batter like Prop-19? Should it be a Batter like Prop-215; "a fantastic out of the park swinger who championed rights for the people of the State of California for cannabis use, horticulture rights and the ability to exchange cannabis with others."
The Question is who should bat next in our efforts to win the pennant of Cannabis Freedom.

I was thinking we should put the prop-215, heavy duty for the people, type hitter up again and BUNT to get our most treasured pro-voters on base.
Time for the team to sacrifice to get the people of the State of California full Cannabis rights.

In my opinion an all or nothing approach doesn't help us. It will either be a sweetheart deal for industry, if it passes, and the people will get some permission, as with requiring a land owner to say it's okay for you to grow crops on his plantation, or something that limits actual horticulture by the people of the state of California.
A Strike out at bat again and an all or nothing will keep us waiting another two years for the next season, and, keep current cannabis Millionaires making money while we the people may still do time in jail or prison for growing, breading, seed saving and sharing cannabis.

The "For-The-People" Hitter then is the Home run type and if we all stand up and promote solid rights to cannabis horticulture for individual human citizens we will have that runner on first and the game will go on for us all.
If not then with three strikes.. We lose our turn at bat but the league that holds the commercial franchises will play another day and we all have to live with defeat for another season.

Remember who actually buys the hot dogs and pop corn... Remember who buys your cannabis at your shops.. Better that you sell above average safe, clean produce and we the people keep the genetics going with free and open breeding and seed saving than it is to control the hot dog market and ruin the enjoyment of the game.


What do you say to that Dan?

 

[Dan Kone]

Hey Dan.

This is not and either or situation just a separate Initiative situation.

Then I'd vote against it.

What I point I am promoting is we must separate the issues into different Initiatives.

I disagree.

I'm sure you want the common citizen to be granted full horticulture rights.
I'm sure you want business rights.

Of course.

The idea is to play it safe and separate the issues for separate Initiatives. One may go down but the other may survive. An All or Nothing initiative is not the answer.

It's not real legalization without the ability to buy and sell legally. No thanks, I'll pass.

Most people do not want to grow their own. They want to buy it. Under your law those people and the people selling it to them are criminals. I want no part of that.

The theory is that many no voters voted no because of the deal prop 19 offered

Agreed. So lets offer them a better deal.

and also since Red Counties do not want business but, some of those will vote yes for private people if the "drug pushing" business isn't part of it.

Your law promotes the black market including cartels. That's real drug pushing. Not sure why you think people would vote for a law that encourages the black market.

So to be sure we get something lets not do an all or nothing initiative.

Any proposed law that excludes safe and legal commercial transactions has me as an opponent.

We all should sacrifice to get the people their freedom and not make them carry some all or nothing that more than likely will fail/

Prop 19 failed in part because Richard Lee got too greedy and the benefits to the average non-smoker were not clear enough. It's possible to have a law that allows for safe and legal commercial transactions but is not overly greedy and inhibits people's freedom to grow for personal consumption.

We already have decrim and medical, what you're talking about doesn't give people a lot more than what is available to them now. No thank you.

We are making the initiatives too complex for the average voter. We bit off more than we could shoe with prop 19. Prop 215 simple for the people is the way to move forward.

Prop 215 was so simple that it still confuses medical patients and law enforcement even after 15 years of trying to figure out the intent. There are a lot of people in jail because prop 215 wasn't specific enough.

The way it is Dan is an all or nothing like prop 19 for 2012 will keep those making money legally now in business and the people lose another 2 years if it fails.

The people lose if they can't legally and safely buy and sell cannabis. The law you want only protects people who grow for themselves. I'm all for them being protected, but you're leaving the majority out in the cold.

Prop 215 has been the only widely supported legalization so we must follow the winning format. Legalize for the people.

And spend 15 years having cops throw people in jail for buying and selling cannabis because you felt like only addressing part of the problem? That's ok. I'd rather have what we've got now.

And if we cannot legalize for the people we cannot pass legalize for business.

And if you're not legalizing the buying and selling of cannabis you aren't really making it legal.

Lets do it all but people first business second.

That's not what you're doing. You're putting people who grow for personal use first, and the other 90% of people second.

It's time for business to sacrifice for the benefit of the people and it's self.

Sounds like it's time for the overwhelming majority to sacrifice so you can get exactly what you want. No thank you.

What do you say to that Dan?

I say we can have a legalization bill that allows people to safely buy and sell cannabis without the perceived flaws of prop 19. You want to leave the majority of cannabis consumers out in the cold.

I'm not buying any of what you're selling. It's selfish to ignore the needs of the majority. I'll pass.

 

[Rob Roy]

My .02...

Vote with your feet and take to the streets! Get people at State Capitals and City Halls and tell them to light up.
Waiting for politicians to "give freedom" might work, but people have to take their freedom sometimes. This is one of those times.

Organize or go to a 4/20 protest. Bring signs, call newspapers, shoot video and post, bring friends. Stop begging for freedom.

ACTION!

 

[Ernst]

Then I'd vote against it.

.

Well Dan, Think about it.
Maybe we will be right here in 2013 discussing this again if we push another prop 19 all or nothing when we all could be free since people already have cannabis shops but the people still go to prison for cannabis horticulture.

Greed over Freedom? Better to take it in simple steps then to fail again.