Intelligent design

Jointsmith

Jointsmith

Well-Known Member
misshestermoffitt said:
religion has no business in public schools. There are 15 different churches in my town, different religions. Who would decide which religion is to be taught? The next thing you know the whole day has been filled with the 15 different religions and they've learned nothing else.

Religion is a fantasy, it has no place in education.
Click to expand...
Actually (and I'm guessing about your specific town) they would be considered sects of the religion Christianity.

I'm talking about The Major World religions...(I.e. Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism, Buddism and Sihkism)

Religion is also Culture, History and Theistic Beliefs, don't be so narrow minded.

An Hour a week learning about the different cultures and beliefs around the world over the course of a school life isn't going to Brainwash a child, it might do a bit to stem the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF IGNORANCE in your country.....That is, Unless you want your children to be as IGNORANT as you are.
 
Stoney McFried

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
I think it's called Social Studies.They explain about different cultures, and what religion is practiced in that culture.And that's about as far as they need to go into it.
Not believing in the intangible is not ignorance,it's common sense.
Jointsmith said:
Actually (and I'm guessing about your specific town) they would be considered sects of the religion Christianity.

I'm talking about The Major World religions...(I.e. Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism, Buddism and Sihkism)

Religion is also Culture, History and Theistic Beliefs, don't be so narrow minded.

An Hour a week learning about the different cultures and beliefs around the world over the course of a school life isn't going to Brainwash a child, it might do a bit to stem the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF IGNORANCE in your country.....That is, Unless you want your children to be as IGNORANT as you are.
Click to expand...
 
AGSteve

AGSteve

Well-Known Member
Jointsmith said:
Actually (and I'm guessing about your specific town) they would be considered sects of the religion Christianity.

I'm talking about The Major World religions...(I.e. Christianity, Islam, Judeism, Hinduism, Buddism and Sihkism)

Religion is also Culture, History and Theistic Beliefs, don't be so narrow minded.

An Hour a week learning about the different cultures and beliefs around the world over the course of a school life isn't going to Brainwash a child, it might do a bit to stem the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF IGNORANCE in your country.....That is, Unless you want your children to be as IGNORANT as you are.
Click to expand...
maybe if they taught all the similarities between them and other religions such as mithraism.

my view of religion should be just 'be excellent to each other' which is not a religious concept and as for god, don't get me started.
 
misshestermoffitt

misshestermoffitt

New Member
So wanting my children to make their own choices and feel free to not blame everything on "god" or the "devil" is being ignorant? Rejecting people who don't feel the need to be accountable for their own actions because "the devil made them do it" is ignorant?

I think those who contribute to the mass hysteria that religion is are the ignorant ones.

There is NO scientific bases for religion what-so-ever.

I suppose you have your kids pray to Jack and Jill, maybe Humpty Dumpty and the 3 Little Pigs too?




Jointsmith said:
That is, Unless you want your children to be as IGNORANT as you are.
Click to expand...
 
Jointsmith

Jointsmith

Well-Known Member
Stoney McFried said:
I think it's called Social Studies.They explain about different cultures, and what religion is practiced in that culture.And that's about as far as they need to go into it.
Click to expand...
Then you want them to have an incomplete education.

Can't you see that to fully UNDERSTAND a culture you need to UNDERSTAND their beliefs.

In my opinion children should leave education able to UNDERSTAND as much as possible.... maybe you disagree.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Jointsmith said:
It's good of you to inform us of 'the point' of this PUBLIC discussion.

You know, I think it is OK to speculate in a discussion about INTELLIGENT DESIGN, no one is pretending to KNOW anything, except YOU.

The Evolution of OUR species still has large (so far unexplained) Gaps in it (Homo Erectus and Modern man are distinctly different species).

Speculation and 'What if's' are good for you, stop hating on people just because you're closed off to any idea's that you can't test out straight away.

I guess it's a symptom of this 'instant gratification' soiciety we live in.
Click to expand...
Instead of taking my quote out of context, maybe you should consider that when I referred to "this discussion" it was the one I was having with We Love 1, NOT the whole thread.:roll:

Of course it's fine to speculate on ID. My point is and always has been that even if we were designed, there should be some evidence of that design, things should make sense from that perspective. We should be able to make predictions based on that idea, come up with new medicines and other technology, sort of like how we know use our knowledge of evolution.

Take the horse. If it was designed, why were there so many 'pre-horses' around for millions of years and what happened to them? Were they not good enough for the designer so he changed them, apparently hundreds of times before he was satisfied?
Descent with modification works for every species we have found fossils of more primitive forms. Design hasn't been able to explain anything. I've never said it couldn't have occurred, the point all along is that there is no evidence to back up this speculation.
If you have some evidence, please show us, I have continually asked for some.

Call me a 'hater' if you want but if an idea can't stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny, then either get tougher skin or GTFO.
Science is and always has been aggressive to new ideas, that's actually how we learn and vet out bad hypotheses. I'm not being a hater but inquiring and aggressive as any scientist should be.
You may have noticed that We Love I has also continually dodged questions he put forth concerning his 'speculation'. He obviously couldn't back up his ideas so needed you to come to his rescue.

We were discussing the the fact that life could have originated elsewhere and brought to earth. Fine, I can accept that (although you claim I'm not open to new ideas). However, I asked how THAT life began. It is the same question whether life originated on earth or not, life formed somewhere, so I was basically pointing out his whole argument is basically a frame-shift from one planet to another without answering anything.
 
Stoney McFried

Stoney McFried

Well-Known Member
No, I want them to educate themselves with regards to religion.There's no reason to explain any more than the basics they cover in social studies, such as, for example,Allah is who Muslims worship,and they bow to Mecca five times a day,and they believe that their women should wear veils.And done.They don't need to speak of him as if he were fact, nor give conjecture regarding whether he created the universe,nor inject opinions one way or another regarding whether he is right and following him is good or bad.Which is what ID wants to teach, but generally about Christianity.If I wanted my kids to have a religious education in this way,I would send them to a private religious school, where it is to be expected.I want my children to be able to go through a step by step dissection of FACTS they are presented,to arrive at a conclusion which can be verified.That way, when they do decide to learn about faith, they can apply this reasoning to determine whether or not they're being fed a bunch of bullshit, excuse my French.:peace:
Jointsmith said:
Then you want them to have an incomplete education.

Can't you see that to fully UNDERSTAND a culture you need to UNDERSTAND their beliefs.

In my opinion children should leave education able to UNDERSTAND as much as possible.... maybe you disagree.
Click to expand...
 
misshestermoffitt

misshestermoffitt

New Member
I am an American, this is my culture. If my kids wanted to go to church and learn, they are free to do so, but it doesn't belong in school.

I dare say that the Pentcostal parents would have a HUGE problem with their kids being taught something from any bible other than their own, that goes for the Jehovas Witness, the Catholics, Baptists, Methodist's, Christians, Amish, Muslims, Mormons, and what about Native Americans? Should they be free to do as their ancestors did before our ancestors came and stole their country?
 
natrone23

natrone23

Well-Known Member
I think all Jointsmith is proposing is a high school class similar too college courses such as "world religions". These courses don't teach the dogma of religions all they do is teach the history of the beliefs the fundamentals of the religion's. You don't have to believe in these myths to study them in a scholarly way. Its also a good thing to learn and understand these religions ie. Islam, because we have to deal with these other cultures in one way or another wether it be through business, international issues, conflict.ect The better we understand there religions the better we understand the people and the culture, and we can make better and more informed decisions.

Whether you believe in these myths or not religions dominates much of the world and influences alot of these people decisions . The more we understand them the better decisions we can make.

Its also important for christians in the U.S to learn about these other religions, because they need realize that the world does not revolve around "their" god and their christian doctrines. The more they learn that are they not in fact special they will also realize that their religion is just as implausible as the rest of the worlds myths (cough) I mean religions
 
AGSteve

AGSteve

Well-Known Member
natrone23 said:
I think all Jointsmith is proposing is a high school class similar too college courses such as "world religions". These courses don't teach the dogma of religions all they do is teach the history of the beliefs the fundamentals of the religion's. You don't have to believe in these myths to study them in a scholarly way. Its also a good thing to learn and understand these religions ie. Islam is because we have to deal with these other cultures in one way or another wether it be through business, international issues, conflict.ect The better we understand there religions the better we understand the people and the culture, and we can make better and more informed decisions.

Whether you believe in these myths or not religions dominates much of the world and influences alot of these people decisions . The more we understand them the better decisions we can make.

Its also important for christians in the U.S to learn about these other religions, because they need realize that the world does not revolve around "their" god and their christian doctrines. The more they learn that are they not in fact special they will also realize that their religion is just as implausible as the rest of the worlds myths (cough) I mean religions
Click to expand...
well put natrone23.
 
medicineman

medicineman

New Member
I have always contended that religion is the "devils" workshop. Religion should not be confused with the creator, the great spirit, or the spirit inside of every human on this planet. Religion is man's attempt to understand the greatness of God and falls short in every way. When one religion hates another religion (Infadels etc,) the "devil" is hard at work spreading hate and dissention. How one could look at this wonderous world with beauty everywhere man has not blighted without considering there is a higher power at work in the universe leaves me wondering. All this evolution of physicality of animals and plants is perfectly feasible to me. The moment of soul, free will and recognition of beauty started about 6,000 years ago, funny it coincides with that fairy tale called the Bible. Wow, there may just be something to this riddle.
 
sgr42o

sgr42o

Well-Known Member
Religion, Intelligent Design, Creationism, or whatever new name they come up for it is still purely based on faith and has no scientific data to back it up. Because of this Creationists always use the same type of arguments when debating someone who supports Evolution; provide no evidence to support creationism and instead, attack Evolution.

Evolution is a scientific theory and while there are holes in it, similar to that of the theory of gravity, it doesn't make it any less credible. You'll often hear Creationists proclaim "It's a theory so therefore its not fact!!!!!1!!!". Statements like this often achieve one thing, it proves how little creationists really do know regarding scientific theory. A scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.)

With that said the amount of evidence regarding the theory of evolution is overwhelming. Anyone with an open mind and a little time can see evidence of evolution in almost anything. The same can't be said about Creationism. (Unless, of course, we're talking spiritually which has no basis in science.) In fact, there is not one bit of evidence to support creationism. This brings us back to the only argument creationists use when debating Evolutionists; attack the holes in Evolution without providing any credible research that can prove creationism. As a matter of fact, the only evidence I've ever heard a creationist give when attempting to prove creationism comes from the bible. Unfortunately the bible isn't a credible source. If it were, I could also prove the cookie monster is real and steals cookies because after all, I saw a book that showed him stealing cookies!

Let's all be honest here though; ID/Creationism/or whatever the hell you want to call it was only brought up as an excuse to teach religion in school. I find it really sad. It's as if there's a conspiracy to retard future generations of kids. There are actually kids out there who believe the world is 8,000 years old and Jesus rode dinosaurs! :wall:

The vast majority of the science community and academia supports the evolutionary theory. Some of those are:

The national science academies. (Totaling 67 countries worldwide.)

Source (PDF): http://www.interacademies.net/Object.File/Master/6/150/Evolution%20statement.pdf

The American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Sources: PDF http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2006/pdf/0219boardstatement.pdf

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2006/0219boardstatement.shtml

PubMed (This is a freely accessible online database of articles published in the biomedically related fields of the life sciences. It has 150,000 articles dating back to 1966 regarding evidence for Evolution.)

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed

The Library Of Congress (Search for Evolution or QH35-QH425. For example, The U of MN has 4,445 books providing evidence for Evolution.)

Source: http://catalog.loc.gov/

National Center for Scientific Education (Numerous statements from TONS of Scientific organizations; all in support for Evolution.)

Source: http://ncseweb.org/media/voices/science

National Science Teachers Association

Source: http://www.nsta.org/about/positions/evolution.aspx

I could go on and on...
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
sgr42o said:
Evolution is a scientific theory and while there are holes in it, similar to that of the theory of gravity, it doesn't make it any less credible. You'll often hear Creationists proclaim "It's a theory so therefore its not fact!!!!!1!!!". Statements like this often achieve one thing, it proves how little creationists really do know regarding scientific theory. A scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. A clear distinction needs to be made between facts (things which can be observed and/or measured) and theories (explanations which correlate and interpret the facts.)
Click to expand...
Excellent post, welcome to the thread.

I would like to add that it is possibly the fault of older school textbooks and possibly even some teachers that somehow give the idea to people that there is some sort of hierarchy going from hypothesis -> theory -> Law and then it somehow is 'proven' and becomes a fact.

In reality, facts are boring, they are a dime a dozen. A theory is the highest level of knowledge in the hierarchy of science. Theories take facts and attempt to offer an explanation what those facts actually mean. It is a fact that our universe emits a pretty homogeneous radiation of microwaves (CMB). It is the Big Bang theory that explains where that radiation originated from. There was a hypothesis that an early universe would be very hot and we should still be able to see remnants of that heat but would be greatly red-shifted. Researchers looked but couldn't find anything. The CMB was found accidentally but it was exactly what was predicted by the Big Bang theorists.

Similar predictions can and are made using ET all of the time. I have yet to see a single prediction, let alone any testing done to support ID.
 
misshestermoffitt

misshestermoffitt

New Member
Med, there are cave paintings in France that are 17,000 years old. The people who did them must have had some soul, free will and recognition of beauty to have been inspired to draw them.





medicineman said:
The moment of soul, free will and recognition of beauty started about 6,000 years ago, funny it coincides with that fairy tale called the Bible. Wow, there may just be something to this riddle.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top