High PPF causes "nanners"?

[Farmer's Hat]

all the other variables? Temps (day & night), humidity, ph, nute strength, feed times?
Could just be a finicky Pheno I spose.

Conditions indoors are sublime compared to conditions in the greenhouse. If it was finicky, it would have done terrible in the greenhouse. It performed like a vigorous monster in the greenhouse.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

I get bleaching not nanners

I can see that happening. LOL.

 

[Delps8]

Two of these. Hanging 16" above canopy. No dimmer. View attachment 5443369

Those are only 100 watts. Running at 16" I'd guess you're at 800 all told. There is a 730 bump but the amount of blue is very high which is typical lights for a 2' tent.

My guess would be 600-800µmol.


The product page shows PPFD maps. With two of them together you might hit 700 but your meter will remove all doubt. With that spectrum, I'd use a 0.0155 conversion but that's a bit of a WAG.

I've attached a paper I wrote that shows why a conversion factor is used.

The 0.0155 is a hunch. The 730nm diodes will generate a fair amount of photons vs the heavy blue which lowers PPFD, so my thinking is that will pull the PPFD value toward 0.016 which is the values for my Growcraft flower light (spectrum in the document). A spectroradiometer reading or lab test results will give definitive numbers but, other than that, it's hit and miss. Even a PAR meter will be off because 730 is outside the PAR range. 730nm is in the "ePAR" range so only newer meters will capture those photons.

A meter indicates how much light is falling on the canopy. That can be helpful to the grower but only the plant can tell you how much light it can use so that light level is the one that matters.

In both photos, leaves on the plants are at an elevated angle, which is generally referred to as "praying". The fact that leaves on the plants in the greenhouse have that attitude, either both sets of plants are getting "lotsa light" or that's just how that cultivar grows.

 

[Rocket Soul]

That is also my conclusion. The thing that is perplexing me, is that this exact plant did not throw bananas when I grew it in the greenhouse. So why is it doing it indoors? Its kind of confusing.

Just an idea: next time with this genetics, try adding a little infrared light thru some low watt incandescant bulbs. Or even CMH, seems to be the most forgiving lighting. It may be that this plant doesnt doesnt like led lights which carry no IR heat; the plants experience of light intensity is connected to its metabolic rate: it may be low light to you but extreme light to the plant due to feeling relatively cold (though herming and nanners seems to regulary be connected to high temps, just spitting ideas).

 

[Drop That Sound]

What about pot size? You likely used bigger containers in the greenhouse, right? What if being root bound alone is the trigger, and nothing to do with spectrum or temps..

Somewhere in my stash is a bodhi pack that was literally listed as being "outdoor only" when I selected it. Like, tester only freebie status, and even says so on the package. Not that it wouldn't be good though! AFAIK, some genetics are known to be more unstable when grown indoors vs being OD.. I seen numerous other "outdoor only tester" strains when browsing the seed banks too..

 

[Farmer's Hat]

What about pot size? You likely used bigger containers in the greenhouse, right? What if being root bound alone is the trigger, and nothing to do with spectrum or temps..

Somewhere in my stash is a bodhi pack that was literally listed as being "outdoor only" when I selected it. Like, tester only freebie status, and even says so on the package. Not that it wouldn't be good though! AFAIK, some genetics are known to be more unstable when grown indoors vs being OD.. I seen numerous other "outdoor only tester" strains when browsing the seed banks too..

This might be a factor. The plants in greenhouse were grown in a raised bed, no limits to root growth. Plants indoors are in 1gl pots.
Its my first time doing a complete grow cycle in small containers. My goal is to maximize plant count for the purpose of pheno hunting and breeding.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

Those are only 100 watts. Running at 16" I'd guess you're at 800 all told. There is a 730 bump but the amount of blue is very high which is typical lights for a 2' tent.

My guess would be 600-800µmol.

View attachment 5443542
The product page shows PPFD maps. With two of them together you might hit 700 but your meter will remove all doubt. With that spectrum, I'd use a 0.0155 conversion but that's a bit of a WAG.

I've attached a paper I wrote that shows why a conversion factor is used.

The 0.0155 is a hunch. The 730nm diodes will generate a fair amount of photons vs the heavy blue which lowers PPFD, so my thinking is that will pull the PPFD value toward 0.016 which is the values for my Growcraft flower light (spectrum in the document). A spectroradiometer reading or lab test results will give definitive numbers but, other than that, it's hit and miss. Even a PAR meter will be off because 730 is outside the PAR range. 730nm is in the "ePAR" range so only newer meters will capture those photons.

A meter indicates how much light is falling on the canopy. That can be helpful to the grower but only the plant can tell you how much light it can use so that light level is the one that matters.

In both photos, leaves on the plants are at an elevated angle, which is generally referred to as "praying". The fact that leaves on the plants in the greenhouse have that attitude, either both sets of plants are getting "lotsa light" or that's just how that cultivar grows.

I used AI and asked if there are negative effects to high blue light spectrum. It generated some convincing info about it negatively affecting plant hormones like ethylene, which cause rhodelization in cannabis plants, particularly those with a genetic predisposition.

However I could not find the actual research papers that were listed, so I deleted the post.

Honestly, there are many factors that could be causing this plant to throw nanners. It will require a lot of isolated tests in order to find out what is causing it. The most practical thing for me to do, is to pop more beans and continue my breeding project with the plants that are genetically more stable.

 

[Milky Weed]

no idea but nice purp

 

[conor c]

I haven't noticed any seeds developing. Im honestly not concerned, just curious.

Ive been working on this strain for a long time, but its been bred mostly for outdoors. Only recently have I decided to also breed a version for indoors. Its going to take a fair amount of work selecting plants that are not sensitive to high ppfd. Even if the naners are sterile, its an ugly trait. The trait is for sure from the MTF, it has some ruderalis in the gene pool.

I have heard rumours Cali o is somewhere in its lineage and if that was true that would explain it as that line has plenty that will throw nanners idk if it's bullshit or not just a thought

 

[Farmer's Hat]

Unless this is wrong, my meter reads 73.5KLux
Converts to roughly 1359.74 ppfd

The center of the canopy is getting 1359.74 ppfd
Corners of canopy are getting 50-60KLux

Canopy temps are reading 70f

 

[Billytheluther]

Unless this is wrong, my meter reads 73.5KLux
Converts to roughly 1359.74 ppfd

The center of the canopy is getting 1359.74 ppfd
Corners of canopy are getting 50-60KLux

Canopy temps are reading 70f

Damn bro that kinda sucks..
I know you said your out of overhead but maybe you can manipulate the light placement maybe even angle at which they hang it can help drop some of those numbers..

i looked up the light and no it isn’t dimmable ( im sure you know already )
Good luck man, that strain looks beautiful..

 

[Delps8]

Unless this is wrong, my meter reads 73.5KLux
Converts to roughly 1359.74 ppfd

The center of the canopy is getting 1359.74 ppfd
Corners of canopy are getting 50-60KLux

Canopy temps are reading 70f

The PPFD map from the manufacturer is shown below. Putting two of those lights next to each other will boost PPFD but at 16", you're getting 650± in the hot spot and then dropping to about 500 so 1k would be on the high side.

What hang height were you using when you took the readings and how are you measuring lux?

Based on 74k lux and 1360µmol, that's a conversion factor of 0.018. I don't know of any light on the market that has that high a conversion factor. I've attached a document I wrote that provides some info about lux to PPFD conversions.

Why did you use the conversion factor that gave that result?

If you're getting 75k lux, I'd estimate that your PPFD is just over 1100µmol. And, since those are board lights, you've got hot spots so your PPFD will drop quickly as you move off center, as shown in the manufacturer's PPFD maps.

If you're using Photone, that might be the reason for the very high readings.




"Corners of canopy are getting 50-60KLux" - somethings's off. The PPFD maps show that, even at 12" that light can't put out 500µmol in the corners.

What size tent is that?

 

[420AD]

I think so, I stressed some of my plants with too much light + high temps and got nanners as well.
Not entirely sure tho that this not also partly a genetic thing.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

The PPFD map from the manufacturer is shown below. Putting two of those lights next to each other will boost PPFD but at 16", you're getting 650± in the hot spot and then dropping to about 500 so 1k would be on the high side.

What hang height were you using when you took the readings and how are you measuring lux?

Based on 74k lux and 1360µmol, that's a conversion factor of 0.018. I don't know of any light on the market that has that high a conversion factor. I've attached a document I wrote that provides some info about lux to PPFD conversions.

Why did you use the conversion factor that gave that result?

If you're getting 75k lux, I'd estimate that your PPFD is just over 1100µmol. And, since those are board lights, you've got hot spots so your PPFD will drop quickly as you move off center, as shown in the manufacturer's PPFD maps.

If you're using Photone, that might be the reason for the very high readings.


View attachment 5443775

"Corners of canopy are getting 50-60KLux" - somethings's off. The PPFD maps show that, even at 12" that light can't put out 500µmol in the corners.

What size tent is that?

My knowledge of conversions is limited. Thank you for the pdf.

I am growing in a 2x2. I just took a measurement, and all the tops are 12" from light. So my KLux reading probably makes more sense. One of the corners is reading 43, another 54 (tallest plant). Im getting 60 in between the corners.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

Damn bro that kinda sucks..
I know you said your out of overhead but maybe you can manipulate the light placement maybe even angle at which they hang it can help drop some of those numbers..

i looked up the light and no it isn’t dimmable ( im sure you know already )
Good luck man, that strain looks beautiful..

The only thing I can do is take out the filter, that would give me another 4-5 inches.

I guess I can also take a light out, but overall temps will most likely drop. Right now its staying at 83f with both lights on.

Im going to buy a taller tent. I like this tent because its somewhat practical to have a separate veg section.

 

[Billytheluther]

The only thing I can do is take out the filter, that would give me another 4-5 inches.

I guess I can also take a light out, but overall temps will most likely drop. Right now its staying at 83f with both lights on.

Im going to buy a taller tent. I like this tent because its somewhat practical to have a separate veg section. View attachment 5443783

Definitely get rid of the filter, try moving it out side the tent..
I stopped venting everything outside and just have my setup like this now, smell doesn’t get too bad unless i open up the tent during late flower

 

[Delps8]

My knowledge of conversions is limited. Thank you for the pdf.

I am growing in a 2x2. I just took a measurement, and all the tops are 12" from light. So my KLux reading probably makes more sense. One of the corners is reading 43, another 54 (tallest plant). Im getting 60 in between the corners.

12" hang height - got it.

2' x 2' and 200 watts is a lot of input wattage. Most growers end up with 30 watts per sq ft but you're at 50. And no dimmer. That's a challenge.

54k ≈ 830µmol so you should be in good shape. The standard values for the light saturation point for cannabis ae 800-1000µmol but that's strain dependent and it also assumes that light is the limiting factor meaning that temp, RH, (VPD), wind speed, nutrients, etc. need to be ] dress right dress to get to 1k.

That's tent full of plants. I don't like to remove healthy foliage but I've also lost of beautiful plant to bud rot. Learned my lesson. Bud rot conditions are elevated RH and temps < 75. I've not seen a break point for "elevated" but if your RH is in the 50's or low 60's you should be good to go. After having to pitch out my plant, I got smart and bought a few Govee temp and RH sensors and I hang them in the canopy.




You can see two of the three sensors in this photo. The black paracord on the left and another one with the white string of the lanyard visible to the right of center.

 

[Farmer's Hat]

Definitely get rid of the filter, try moving it out side the tent..
I stopped venting everything outside and just have my setup like this now, smell doesn’t get too bad unless i open up the tent during late flower

The purpose of the filter in the tent is to extract hot air. Can the filter be set up outside the tent and still extract the heat effectively?

 

[Farmer's Hat]

12" hang height - got it.

2' x 2' and 200 watts is a lot of input wattage. Most growers end up with 30 watts per sq ft but you're at 50. And no dimmer. That's a challenge.

54k ≈ 830µmol so you should be in good shape. The standard values for the light saturation point for cannabis ae 800-1000µmol but that's strain dependent and it also assumes that light is the limiting factor meaning that temp, RH, (VPD), wind speed, nutrients, etc. need to be ] dress right dress to get to 1k.

That's tent full of plants. I don't like to remove healthy foliage but I've also lost of beautiful plant to bud rot. Learned my lesson. Bud rot conditions are elevated RH and temps < 75. I've not seen a break point for "elevated" but if your RH is in the 50's or low 60's you should be good to go. After having to pitch out my plant, I got smart and bought a few Govee temp and RH sensors and I hang them in the canopy.

View attachment 5443859


You can see two of the three sensors in this photo. The black paracord on the left and another one with the white string of the lanyard visible to the right of center.
View attachment 5443860

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. The rh in my tent is staying in the low 40s lights on, and around 63 lights off. I think im good shape.

I still havent seen any seeds developing. No swollen calyxes on any of the buds. Im fairly certain that the bananas are sterile.

Im going to try moving the filter outside of the tent and see how that affects things. I will be able to raise lights another 4-5 inches this way.

 

[Delps8]

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge. The rh in my tent is staying in the low 40s lights on, and around 63 lights off. I think im good shape.

I still havent seen any seeds developing. No swollen calyxes on any of the buds. Im fairly certain that the bananas are sterile.

Im going to try moving the filter outside of the tent and see how that affects things. I will be able to raise lights another 4-5 inches this way.

All good news. Glad to see that.