Hamas offensive against Israel

[Sativied]

translation: religious radicals warn other religious radicals to act less radical or they will get more radical.

Haredi (“ultra-Orthodox”), Dati (“religious”), Masorti (“traditional”) and Hiloni (“secular”).

When people in Europe see American religious radicals with AR-15s, vote Trump into power, ban cartoons, many too conclude "America" is crazy but that rarely includes people who are aware of what painting with a broad brush means or have at least some idea about the differences between states, regions, tribe.

"Jonathan Schanzer wrote that in two years following the 2007 coup, the Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization. a process whereby the Hamas government had imposed strict rules on women [and girls... aka kids, but who mentioned that besides me across several threads], discouraged activities commonly associated with Western culture, oppressed non-Muslim minorities, imposed sharia law, and deployed religious police to enforce these laws"

When using such a broad brush and properties of members and subsets become properties of the set, it would be more consistent to suggest something like 'religious radicals (US) publish/post/respond to news about religious radicals (Iran) warning religious radicals (Israel) to react less radical against religious radicals (Palestinians), would it not?

Before this current mess started, 45% Gazans would vote Hamas again, (supposedly, not sure what good polls are there especially now...) almost 2/3rds expected there'd be a violent attack this year, about half of that supported it... and almost everyone knows from where the rockets are launched. That Mossad guy you also 'translated' (put words in his mouth) was not wrong saying it's not just Hamas [soldiers]. And did not refer to or imply any guilt of kids. Putting supporters of the enemy on buses or buying them train tickets is not uncommon expression and comes in many variations ("I'll buy the tickets!" will suffice nowadays). People said the same thing about supporters who cheered after 9/11, rightfully so. It's what you guys should be doing with certain republicans including a former potus, put them on a plane to Russia. It's tough guy rhetoric and I think... well, you said it:

I think you are jumping to a conclusion based upon rhetoric and not deeds. Facts matter and truth matters.

Right. And yes, but that's at best just half of it. When not interpreted objectively and not processed into sequitur conclusions, but treated similar to how religious radicals do, facts get 'translated' and truths become (even more) subjective.

The both sides bad argument never works. It would work in a nonsensical hypothetical situation where we'd measure and compare the level of 'bad' accurately and based on that make decisions or decide not to act at all. Both sides bad is a thought-terminating cliché with only one practical purpose.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

View attachment 5338219

Haredi (“ultra-Orthodox”), Dati (“religious”), Masorti (“traditional”) and Hiloni (“secular”).

When people in Europe see American religious radicals with AR-15s, vote Trump into power, ban cartoons, many too conclude "America" is crazy but that rarely includes people who are aware of what painting with a broad brush means or have at least some idea about the differences between states, regions, tribe.

"Jonathan Schanzer wrote that in two years following the 2007 coup, the Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization. a process whereby the Hamas government had imposed strict rules on women [and girls... aka kids, but who mentioned that besides me across several threads], discouraged activities commonly associated with Western culture, oppressed non-Muslim minorities, imposed sharia law, and deployed religious police to enforce these laws"

When using such a broad brush and properties of members and subsets become properties of the set, it would be more consistent to suggest something like 'religious radicals (US) publish/post/respond to news about religious radicals (Iran) warning religious radicals (Israel) to react less radical against religious radicals (Palestinians), would it not?

Before this current mess started, 45% Gazans would vote Hamas again, (supposedly, not sure what good polls are there especially now...) almost 2/3rds expected there'd be a violent attack this year, about half of that supported it... and almost everyone knows from where the rockets are launched. That Mossad guy you also 'translated' (put words in his mouth) was not wrong saying it's not just Hamas [soldiers]. And did not refer to or imply any guilt of kids. Putting supporters of the enemy on buses or buying them train tickets is not uncommon expression and comes in many variations ("I'll buy the tickets!" will suffice nowadays). People said the same thing about supporters who cheered after 9/11, rightfully so. It's what you guys should be doing with certain republicans including a former potus, put them on a plane to Russia. It's tough guy rhetoric and I think... well, you said it:


Right. And yes, but that's at best just half of it. When not interpreted objectively and not processed into sequitur conclusions, but treated similar to how religious radicals do, facts get 'translated' and truths become (even more) subjective.

The both sides bad argument never works. It would work in a nonsensical hypothetical situation where we'd measure and compare the level of 'bad' accurately and based on that make decisions or decide not to act at all. Both sides bad is a thought-terminating cliché with only one practical purpose.

You will agree that the war in Ukraine is less ambiguous a one than the one currently in the middle east? That Palestinians are protected by the same international law as Ukrainians? Israel has a difficult problem as a struggling liberal democracy, thanks to Bebe, who cobbled together enough support to avoid jail. Jews are big on the law, their religious law, which dictates behavior that is largely in line with international law. They have created a modern version of the Warsaw ghetto in Gaza and it looks like it might end the same way for the Palestinians. If they commit genocidal acts and are not prosecuted in the Hague, then they have no right to prosecute anybody including Putin. Just because Hamas behaves like animals does not give Israel license to do the same and stay on the right side of the law, theirs and international.

You don't win the peace with such acts of genocide, you make more enemies, friends come and go, but enemies accumulate, an old Jewish saying.

 

[Fogdog]

View attachment 5338219

Haredi (“ultra-Orthodox”), Dati (“religious”), Masorti (“traditional”) and Hiloni (“secular”).

When people in Europe see American religious radicals with AR-15s, vote Trump into power, ban cartoons, many too conclude "America" is crazy but that rarely includes people who are aware of what painting with a broad brush means or have at least some idea about the differences between states, regions, tribe.

"Jonathan Schanzer wrote that in two years following the 2007 coup, the Gaza Strip had exhibited the characteristics of Talibanization. a process whereby the Hamas government had imposed strict rules on women [and girls... aka kids, but who mentioned that besides me across several threads], discouraged activities commonly associated with Western culture, oppressed non-Muslim minorities, imposed sharia law, and deployed religious police to enforce these laws"

When using such a broad brush and properties of members and subsets become properties of the set, it would be more consistent to suggest something like 'religious radicals (US) publish/post/respond to news about religious radicals (Iran) warning religious radicals (Israel) to react less radical against religious radicals (Palestinians), would it not?

Before this current mess started, 45% Gazans would vote Hamas again, (supposedly, not sure what good polls are there especially now...) almost 2/3rds expected there'd be a violent attack this year, about half of that supported it... and almost everyone knows from where the rockets are launched. That Mossad guy you also 'translated' (put words in his mouth) was not wrong saying it's not just Hamas [soldiers]. And did not refer to or imply any guilt of kids. Putting supporters of the enemy on buses or buying them train tickets is not uncommon expression and comes in many variations ("I'll buy the tickets!" will suffice nowadays). People said the same thing about supporters who cheered after 9/11, rightfully so. It's what you guys should be doing with certain republicans including a former potus, put them on a plane to Russia. It's tough guy rhetoric and I think... well, you said it:


Right. And yes, but that's at best just half of it. When not interpreted objectively and not processed into sequitur conclusions, but treated similar to how religious radicals do, facts get 'translated' and truths become (even more) subjective.

The both sides bad argument never works. It would work in a nonsensical hypothetical situation where we'd measure and compare the level of 'bad' accurately and based on that make decisions or decide not to act at all. Both sides bad is a thought-terminating cliché with only one practical purpose.

Am I wrong to believe that Israel's government is fascist? Or at the very least their leader and his core group of administrators are?

 

[BudmanTX]

idk....y does my gut tell me that Isreal won't invade, they will set up artillery instead, all this is just posturing....hmmm

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

America, the EU and Joe can't have Israel going off the deep end in response to the terrorist attack and racking up the civilian body count in Gaza through violence or privation. The whole world is watching, particularly the Muslim and Arab world where sympathy for the Palestinians is high. How would they be able to prosecute war criminals in the Hague while giving Israel a pass? How would we be able to tell the difference between the sides? We are allies with liberal democracies who are supposed to follow international law and enforce it, a least in Canada and anybody else who signed onto the international court. If neither side follows the rule of law, who do you support, the one who murders the most civilians? We can't prosecute war crimes in Ukraine while giving a pass to Israel, that would be selective prosecution and destroy the entire system of international law. In an interconnected and dependent world, we need such law, it is not a feel-good luxury or aspirational, it is a practical matter.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Am I wrong to believe that Israel's government is fascist? Or at the very least their leader and his core group of administrators are?

Right now, they are more pissed off than anything else, regardless of political stripe, the tribal instincts have taken over and are dictating the agenda.

We've seen how almost half the population in America were ready to overthrow the government and constitution for imagined grievances and transparent lies. Imagine if their grievances were real and serious? In the aftermath of 911, it was scary, Dubya was ready to nuke any threat with public support, it led to a 20-year war. One in Afghanistan and the other Dubya's doing and it flooded Europe with refugees after the region was destabilized, while exhausting the US army.

The main thing is this does not lead to a general war in the middle east caused by Israeli genocide where we are forced to back Israel in the face of very unpleasant facts and a lot of hypocrisy. The civilian body count in Gaza counts!

 

[Fogdog]

Right now, they are more pissed off than anything else, regardless of political stripe, the tribal instincts have taken over and are dictating the agenda.

We've seen how almost half the population in America were ready to overthrow the government and constitution for imagined grievances and transparent lies. Imagine if their grievances were real and serious? In the aftermath of 911, it was scary, Dubya was ready to nuke any threat with public support, it led to a 20-year war. One in Afghanistan and the other Dubya's doing and it flooded Europe with refugees after the region was destabilized, while exhausting the US army.

The main thing is this does not lead to a general war in the middle east caused by Israeli genocide where we are forced to back Israel in the face of very unpleasant facts and a lot of hypocrisy. The civilian body count in Gaza counts!

How do most Israeli's feel is not what I asked Sativied.

The reason I asked Sativied if I was wrong to believe that Israel's government or at the least, Netanyahu and his closest administrators are fascist is because Fascism is by definition a radical ideology. I'm willing to accept that fascism isn't by definition religious radical ideology but the word radical is the important one here.

We have Hamas on one side, a radically anti-Semitic militant group holding power in Gaza and Likud, that I believe to be a fascist Zionist group that is holding power in Israel. I'll concede maybe religion isn't all that important, radicalism is.

The comparison of Hamas and Likud to our problem in the US with MAGA fascism is not wrong.

I think on all sides, radicalism is preventing communication and resolution of our differences. I'm not counseling that the leaders of Hamas and Likud must now come together to sing kumbaya and hug, the wounds are too deep for that. Just saying that the senseless killing has to stop before peace can be achieved. I mean, duh. Radicalism is only the first barrier to that happening.

 

[sunni]

hey folks we all need to take a big pause and relax

We have people acting out of control on this topic dming people abusing them in dms over differences etc.

We are breaking numerous rules.

would you like to talk about this subject? if so please follow the tos

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

How do most Israeli's feel is not what I asked Sativied.

The reason I asked Sativied if I was wrong to believe that Israel's government or at the least, Netanyahu and his closest administrators are fascist is because Fascism is by definition a radical ideology. I'm willing to accept that fascism isn't by definition religious radical ideology but the word radical is the important one here.

We have Hamas on one side, a radically anti-Semitic militant group holding power in Gaza and Likud, that I believe to be a fascist Zionist group that is holding power in Israel. I'll concede maybe religion isn't all that important, radicalism is.

The comparison of Hamas and Likud to our problem in the US with MAGA fascism is not wrong.

I think on all sides, radicalism is preventing communication and resolution of our differences. I'm not counseling that the leaders of Hamas and Likud must now come together to sing kumbaya and hug, the wounds are too deep for that. Just saying that the senseless killing has to stop before peace can be achieved. I mean, duh. Radicalism is only the first barrier to that happening.

How they feel drives their actions and anger makes people more vulnerable to fascism and radicalism on any side, things must be managed carefully in the face of outrage as they are in Ukraine. The rule of international law must be enforced and the threat of it credible, it is one of the few restraints on the Israeli's at least. A mass genocide and wider war are to be avoided, no matter how some people feel about it or Hamas.

 

[Fogdog]

How they feel drives their actions and anger makes people more vulnerable to fascism and radicalism on any side, things must be managed carefully in the face of outrage as they are in Ukraine. The rule of international law must be enforced and the threat of it credible, it is one of the few restraints on the Israeli's at least. A mass genocide and wider war are to be avoided, no matter how some people feel about it or Hamas.

I agree with you, I'm just not of the belief that Likud and especially Netanyahu care about international law. Dangling a carrot in the form of US military aid might get them to change their path away from invasion of Gaza. Fascists are able to act in their own self interests, which, I guess, differentiates them from religious fanatics.

This sub thread is about my question to Sativied regarding whether or not he thinks I'm wrong to believe Israel's government is fascist. I'm still interested in hearing about that.

 

[BudmanTX]

and the bot army is out in full force right now........

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

This sub thread is about my question to Sativied regarding whether or not he thinks I'm wrong to believe Israel's government is fascist. I'm still interested in hearing about that.

It depends on how you define it, within their tribe the Israeli's are more or less liberal democratic. Remember though the government reflects the will of the people, just like in the American south where there is another traditionally disenfranchised minority. A lot of the hate comes from the ground up and a liberal democracy can't deal with that very well, the majority will always find ways to get at the hated minority.

Looking at the religious categories in Israel can be deceiving, many secular Jews are right wing, and some religious Jews are more in keeping with the principles of the rule of law as an extension of their beliefs. If a liberal democratic government is fascist depends on the people, they elect, and we see examples of the type in America.

Is Australia a fascist state? https://apnews.com/article/indigenous-voice-australia-referendum-f08e92769a8a052c791b711116fa1a7c

Australians’ rejection of the Indigenous Voice in constitutional vote is shameful, supporters say

 

[Fogdog]

It depends on how you define it, within their tribe the Israeli's are more or less liberal democratic. Remember though the government reflects the will of the people, just like in the American south where there is another traditionally disenfranchised minority. A lot of the hate comes from the ground up and a liberal democracy can't deal with that very well, the majority will always find ways to get at the hated minority.

Looking at the religious categories in Israel can be deceiving, many secular Jews are right wing, and some religious Jews are more in keeping with the principles of the rule of law as an extension of their beliefs. If a liberal democratic government is fascist depends on the people, they elect, and we see examples of the type in America.

Is Australia a fascist state? https://apnews.com/article/indigenous-voice-australia-referendum-f08e92769a8a052c791b711116fa1a7c

Australians’ rejection of the Indigenous Voice in constitutional vote is shameful, supporters say

I'm not smart enough to make it up all on my own. I depend on information outside of my own head. The question is echoed from many other sources including those within Israel itself. For example,

Criticism of Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some key aspects of Israeli society are sometimes compared to Nazi Germany, directly or by allusion. Examples include: equating the Gaza Strip with concentration camps in Nazi-occupied Europe.[92][better source needed] The IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism defines such comparisons as antisemitic.

Following the 1967 Six-Day War, the Soviet Union compared Israeli tactics to those of Nazi Germany.[93] A similar comparison was made by the Israeli Arab author Nimer Nimer.[94] Yeshayahu Leibowitz, Israeli public intellectual, scientist, and Orthodox Jew, warned in 1982 that if the occupation continued, Israel would be in danger of succumbing to "Judeo-Nazism".[95]

I'm not accusing the Likud government of being Nazi. Given that a fundamental aspect of Nazi ideology is that Jews must be exterminated, the history of the holocaust and so forth, that would be insensitive, foolish and wrong. But fascism isn't necessarily anti-Semitic. The term describes a range of behaviors -- control of the press, an absolutist authoritarian government, anti-democracy, celebrating cruelty and violence and so forth. I see a lot of that in Israel today and am also saying point blank that MAGA is a fascist movement.

Australia may be a racist state regarding the Indigenous Voice but fascist? No, not fascist. If you went through my posts on the matter, I differentiate the current Israeli government from the people of Israel. I'm asking if the Israeli government is fascist, not asking if Jews or Israelis are fascist. Also, when fascists take hold of power, liberal democracy is threatened. The two are not compatible.

 

[BudmanTX]

al-Husseini see what you started.....and now it can't stop

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I'm asking if the Israeli government is fascist, not asking if Jews or Israelis are fascist. Also, when fascists take hold of power, liberal democracy is threatened. The two are not compatible.

As I said, the government in a democracy is a reflection of the people doing the voting. If those people feel under threat, they will tolerate a loss of liberty and even the government breaking the law and, in some cases, will demand it. Social cohesion and discipline are also imposed on the group too, though it is largely instinctively driven. The line between fascism and democracy can be like the line between good and evil, it passes straight through the human heart.

 

[Fogdog]

As I said, the government in a democracy is a reflection of the people doing the voting. If those people feel under threat, they will tolerate a loss of liberty and even the government breaking the law and, in some cases, will demand it. Social cohesion and discipline are also imposed on the group too, though it is largely instinctively driven. The line between fascism and democracy can be like the line between good and evil, it passes straight through the human heart.

The government in a democracy is a reflection of the people who voted for them, not all the people in that country. You've made this mistake before, claiming same about Trump. Trump was not a reflection upon people who protested and voted against him. Trump got elected because of vagaries in our constitution, not because the majority wanted him as prez. The record is there for all to read. Trump was a minority president. This is not that hard to understand. Regarding Likud, they don't reflect the hopes and beliefs of all the people of Israel. I don't know if they received a majority of the vote, I'm guessing not. But how one person votes does not mean anything about another person who voted otherwise.

 

[BudmanTX]

imho i don't believe the Isreali governing body is facist, i do believe there are some elements within the governing body that may pull that way but are not. There are elements of Zoinist Isrealis within the governing body as learned from the Congress of Zion in the late 1800's, and they're desendants are within that body might tend to pull that way as well.....keep in mind Zionism and Judaism are 2 seperate things and they are both within Israel itself.....

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

The government in a democracy is a reflection of the people who voted for them, not all the people in that country. You've made this mistake before, claiming same about Trump. Trump was not a reflection upon people who protested and voted against him. Trump got elected because of vagaries in our constitution, not because the majority wanted him as prez. The record is there for all to read. Trump was a minority president. This is not that hard to understand. Regarding Likud, they don't reflect the hopes and beliefs of all the people of Israel. I don't know if they received a majority of the vote, I'm guessing not. But how one person votes does not mean anything about another person who voted otherwise.

Generally, the majority rules and it is their will that is expressed, the rest are along for the ride, kicking and screaming they may be. Only the constitution and legal precedent provide a check on the will of the majority in any country. In America it doesn't even need to be a majority, it is whoever controls the levers of state power. In Israel there is a coalition government and there are many parties across the spectrum, but it is whatever the cabinet backed by a majority of the house think that counts. If they want to level Gaza and ignore international law, it is their call and so are the consequences. Are they fascistic? Right now, they are more fascist than they have been in a long time because so many people are pissed off and it is skewing their judgement.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1716443128163442984

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1716269169115550176