2022 elections. The steady march for sanity continues.

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
doublejj said:
it's in the US Constitution.....
13th Amendment
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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In Oregon, involuntary servitude or slavery cannot be meted out as punishment. I don't see that as a bad thing, I don't really care if dead white men 150 years ago thought it would be OK.
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
In Oregon, involuntary servitude or slavery cannot be meted out as punishment. I don't see that as a bad thing, I don't really care if dead white men 150 years ago thought it would be OK.
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who pays to feed and house inmates in Oregon?...and their health/dental care?....eye glasses?....toilet paper?
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
This is Charles Ng. He is currently serving a life sentence in California. One of the dozens of murders he was convicted of committing was putting an infant into a microwave and videoing it's mothers face as it cooked to death. He then raped and killed the mother and then killed father also on video. He was known to video many of his murders and would use the tapes for masturbatory enjoyment. They found an extensive library of tapes during his investigation. California was forced to drop the death penalty for Mr Ng to get Canada to extradite him to face trial. He's enjoying a peaceful life in a california prison and I suppose it's an atrocity to ask Mr Ng to contribute in some way like sweeping the floor or working in the laundry or helping with the pots and pans in the kitchen....we are so mean here in Cali
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doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
CunningCanuk said:
Are you sure about that?
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yes. I find it very ironic that the surviving victims of crime are forced to pay the support for the very criminal that they were victims of. Family of crime survivors are left paying to incarcerate the criminal who offended them and their family, while the criminal is not expected to contribute in any way..
 
Dorian2

Dorian2

Well-Known Member
doublejj said:
This is Charles Ng. He is currently serving a life sentence in California. One of the dozens of murders he was convicted of committing was putting an infant into a microwave and videoing it's mothers face as it cooked to death. He then raped and killed the mother and then killed father also on video. He was known to video many of his murders and would use the tapes for masturbatory enjoyment. They found an extensive library of tapes during his investigation. California was forced to drop the death penalty for Mr Ng to get Canada to extradite him to face trial. He's enjoying a peaceful life in a california prison and I suppose it's an atrocity to ask Mr Ng to contribute in some way like sweeping the floor or working in the laundry or helping with the pots and pans in the kitchen....we are so mean here in Cali
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That MFer was caught in the city a couple hundred clicks south of us.
 
injinji

injinji

Well-Known Member
DoubleAtotheRON said:
Didn't know that was a thing.
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At the end of slavery all the slave states implemented convict leasing. Then they made it against the law to be black. For instance you could get 10 years of hard labor for sitting 15 minutes. (loitering) My maternal grandfather used black convicts in his lumber business until he died in 1938. The practice was widely used until the end of Jim Crow in the early 60's.

Convict leasing was much worse than slavery since there was no ownership of the people. (no risk of loss for killing the person) If you worked one to death, you just marked him off the time sheet. Family stories recount my granddaddy shooting a man for looking at granny. (he did do a little time for killing one of his wives, but nothing happened over killing the convict)
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I don't. It's not as you say anyway.
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it's not? how is it then?
i agree with you about a lot of things, but not everything...prison should be an unpleasant experience, it's not a camp, and it's not a criminal education enrichment center...they should have to do all the day to day tasks that it requires to run a facility like a prison, that they can be trusted to do. they should be well fed, decently clothed and housed, and that is fucking it...anything extra at all, they should have to earn it, up to and including the electricity to run their tvs and radios. no more people dumping money into commissary accounts, any donations go into an account that they get when they get out, while they're locked up, they earn candy and coke money, or they fucking do without.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Roger A. Shrubber said:
it's not? how is it then?
i agree with you about a lot of things, but not everything...prison should be an unpleasant experience, it's not a camp, and it's not a criminal education enrichment center...they should have to do all the day to day tasks that it requires to run a facility like a prison, that they can be trusted to do. they should be well fed, decently clothed and housed, and that is fucking it...anything extra at all, they should have to earn it, up to and including the electricity to run their tvs and radios. no more people dumping money into commissary accounts, any donations go into an account that they get when they get out, while they're locked up, they earn candy and coke money, or they fucking do without.
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Too many opportunities in such a setup for sadism and corruption in the disguise of some sort of retribution. Imo that is a larger factor than any fiction of earning the basics.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
it's not? how is it then?
i agree with you about a lot of things, but not everything...prison should be an unpleasant experience, it's not a camp, and it's not a criminal education enrichment center...they should have to do all the day to day tasks that it requires to run a facility like a prison, that they can be trusted to do. they should be well fed, decently clothed and housed, and that is fucking it...anything extra at all, they should have to earn it, up to and including the electricity to run their tvs and radios. no more people dumping money into commissary accounts, any donations go into an account that they get when they get out, while they're locked up, they earn candy and coke money, or they fucking do without.
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I was replying to jj's claim that the victims pay for the room, board and security of the criminal who harmed them. It was an appeal to emotion and not even close to the truth. Society pays for their incarceration, not the victims.

Depriving a person of their freedom for a period of time depending on what a person did is a valid punishment, 23 hours a day in a holding cell or whatever the maximum time in confinement is what I'm talking about. Crap but nourishing food, lights on all day, guards searching the cell. Restrictions on what a person can do or have in the cell. No tv, no radio, nothing but stir time. Maybe books that meet allowable criteria if the person behaves. JJ posted a series of videos describing prison life. It's punishment enough. I'm also offended by jokes about rape and convict on convict violence in prison too. Allowing that is tantamount to state sanctioned torture and the idea that it happens turns my stomach. Humane imprisonment is enough. Work for a reasonable pay should be a reward for good behavior, which is in fact what is enacted right now, with plenty of people willing to do it. Good behavior should be rewarded. Those who can't behave stay in their cell for the maximum amount of time.

There are too many examples of abuse in forced labor camps for me to agree that my state should allow involuntary servitude as punishment. Oregon doesn't do that now. We are not a a gulag state and all I did was vote to make it official.

I am OK with you and me disagreeing on this. Let it be settled at the ballot box. We did that in Oregon and I'm glad we don't allow slavery in our state any more.
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I was replying to jj's claim that the victims pay for the room, board and security of the criminal who harmed them. It was an appeal to emotion and not even close to the truth. Society pays for their incarceration, not the victims.

Depriving a person of their freedom for a period of time depending on what a person did is a valid punishment, 23 hours a day in a holding cell or whatever the maximum time in confinement is what I'm talking about. Crap but nourishing food, lights on all day, guards searching the cell. Restrictions on what a person can do or have in the cell. No tv, no radio, nothing but stir time. Maybe books that meet allowable criteria if the person behaves. JJ posted a series of videos describing prison life. It's punishment enough. I'm also offended by jokes about rape and convict on convict violence in prison too. Allowing that is tantamount to state sanctioned torture and the idea that it happens turns my stomach. Humane imprisonment is enough. Work for a reasonable pay should be a reward for good behavior, which is in fact what is enacted right now, with plenty of people willing to do it. Good behavior should be rewarded. Those who can't behave stay in their cell for the maximum amount of time.

There are too many examples of abuse in forced labor camps for me to agree that my state should allow involuntary servitude as punishment. Oregon doesn't do that now. We are not a a gulag state and all I did was vote to make it official.

I am OK with you and me disagreeing on this. Let it be settled at the ballot box. We did that in Oregon and I'm glad we don't allow slavery in our state any more.
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society is the victim.....when they charge a criminal in court it is "The state vs XXXX" The crime victims are tax paying citizens and must foot the bill, they are left holding the bag.
 
doublejj

doublejj

Well-Known Member
We don't have money to pay student loan forgiveness but we have enough to pay criminals better wages?....really?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
doublejj said:
society is the victim.....when they charge a criminal in court it is "The state vs XXXX" The crime victims are tax paying citizens and must foot the bill, they are left holding the bag.
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I'm saying I don't want my state to be have gulags and I voted against allowing slavery as punishment. Everything else is open for discussion. There are plenty of crimes where fines are part of the sentence. A criminal could be fined enough to cover their incarceration. I'm for justice, not revenge.
 
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