Fuck it/Enough is Enough

[Roger A. Shrubber]

"What are things I've never said?"

except that one time

depends on who is asking....

 

[Unclebaldrick]

depends on who is asking....

True.

 

[Budley Doright]

So that's a 'no' for blow job?

 

[mooray]

I dont think there can really be justice in the instance of war, on a few levels.

In terms of retribution for personal wrongs done unto you, unless you can find the particular soldier that bombed your kid, going out and killing a random person from the other country, in their country, is not any different than their action. Its on the individual soldiers to obey or disobey orders, you own the moral burden of your actions. As such, hunting down some particular soldier blood fued style is fine, I get it. The justice part though hinges on that personal connection to the wrong done. A Ukrainian killing some random person in a starbuckski just over the border is not justice. I don't think you really own the moral burden of the actions of your country, at least not to the extent that it would cover justice being dealt out.

You certainly have a right to self defense, or a right to gtfo and run, its war, you do what you have to in order to not die. I do think self defense includes preemptive action and counter attacks after the fact. If people want to kill you, it is foolish to wait for them to come at you if they are credible threat. It's war, it does not end with one successful defense, they come back to try and kill you again, so I think counter attacks after the fact are justified as self defense.

Mostly it boils down to not going to people's homes to kill them unless you have a direct personal connection. The way in which wrongs are committed in a war make justice hard to achieve, war isn't moral, it skews moral boundaries for individuals, and justice is an arm of morality.

Justice is also only as good as your ability to enforce it. Doesn't make it right, but it is reality.

Mostly agree about killing a stranger, but what about killing the family members of a general, or Putin? Also agree there's really no such thing as justice when life is taken, but what might a person be entitled to? And what these thoughts really boil down to is, the sickening dichotomy between Putin and all his stolen wealth sitting fat dumb and happy, compared to someone that's had their family murdered by him. It easier for him to bring loss to others when nobody's brought any in return. Someone needs to bring that pain to him.

 

[cannabineer]

Mostly agree about killing a stranger, but what about killing the family members of a general, or Putin? Also agree there's really no such thing as justice when life is taken, but what might a person be entitled to? And what these thoughts really boil down to is, the sickening dichotomy between Putin and all his stolen wealth sitting fat dumb and happy, compared to someone that's had their family murdered by him. It easier for him to bring loss to others when nobody's brought any in return. Someone needs to bring that pain to him.

Threatening someone’s family is the abyss of immorality imo. Even a demon’s family.

 

[mooray]

In a singular sense, like a Hatfield and McCoy family feud sense, I totally agree, but I think there's a point when the scale grows and that causes it to change. What if not dropping nukes in ww2 caused the war to drag out and what if it caused more people to die? Heck, what if the survival of our entire country hinged on those nukes? Because, what Ukraine is going through isn't trivial in regard to the survival of their country. In their position, all the rules go out the window.

 

[Bagginski]

“Entitled to”? That’s the slipperiest slope of all: Entitlements are attached to titles, like Prince, Duke, Earl - handed by conquerors to their friends, bankrollers, lieutenants, partners as part of the spoils of victory…or to slaveowners as a condition of purchase. Sticky moral territory.

Rage, grief, vengeance bestow no title under which to carry out retribution with impunity, without blowback: those things are natural, comprehensible, but not a license to murder. Vendetta culture is casual-murder culture…we’re much too close to that as it is (IMO)

 

[cannabineer]

In a singular sense, like a Hatfield and McCoy family feud sense, I totally agree, but I think there's a point when the scale grows and that causes it to change. What if not dropping nukes in ww2 caused the war to drag out and what if it caused more people to die? Heck, what if the survival of our entire country hinged on those nukes? Because, what Ukraine is going through isn't trivial in regard to the survival of their country. In their position, all the rules go out the window.

I cannot equate that with threatening specific family to coerce an individual. To me, different moral categories.

 

[mooray]

I think that when it's five on one, you get to pull hair and kick in the nuts.

 

[cannabineer]

I think that when it's five on one, you get to pull hair and kick in the nuts.

I agree but still perceive as different category.

 

[mooray]

I agree but still perceive as different category.

I can definitely understand the concern, we just disagree on size of the circle which encompasses "fighting dirty". For example, I think that if Ukraine had a nuke, they're well within their right to drop it over Moscow. When a country is being invaded, from their perspective, I can understand nothing being off the table. On the flipside, their ability to fight this war with minimal ugliness, is admirable.

 

[cannabineer]

I can definitely understand the concern, we just disagree on size of the circle which encompasses "fighting dirty". For example, I think that if Ukraine had a nuke, they're well within their right to drop it over Moscow. When a country is being invaded, from their perspective, I can understand nothing being off the table. On the flipside, their ability to fight this war with minimal ugliness, is admirable.

It depends on how the nuke is used. I’m a fan of proportional response.
If Russia uses a nuke on a military asset, NATO comes in and nukes a premier Russian asset. Polyarnyy and every deployed sub jump to mind.

If Russia nukes a population center, the calculus changes. I would not go tit for tat here, but conventionally bomb the living crap out of nuclear production and storage centers.
This is morally and militarily better than gutshooting the guy who gutshot you imo. The objective is to seriously attrite Russia’s current and projected ability to wage war.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I cannot equate that with threatening specific family to coerce an individual. To me, different moral categories.

how about if someone just killed both of his daughters without making any threats or with any other goal besides retribution?
someone who had their family slaughtered by russian soldiers on putin's order?
i think i could manage to look the other way without too much effort

 

[cannabineer]

how about if someone just killed both of his daughters without making any threats or with any other goal besides retribution?
someone who had their family slaughtered by russian soldiers on putin's order?
i think i could manage to look the other way without too much effort

Toughie. Usually threatening family is overt as a tool of compulsion. What gain is there in whacking his family unannounced? I can’t game that one to its conclusion in my head. (I was mediocre at chess.) I dislike being exposed to unintended consequences.

I prefer a morally and militarily cleaner counterstrike like simultaneously torpedoing all his missile boats and as many hunter- killers as possible. The Russians have frighteningly quiet diesel-electrics. In the instance that this is the response to a nuking, using nuclear torpedoes means never having to say you’re sorry.

 

[PJ Diaz]

In a singular sense, like a Hatfield and McCoy family feud sense, I totally agree, but I think there's a point when the scale grows and that causes it to change. What if not dropping nukes in ww2 caused the war to drag out and what if it caused more people to die? Heck, what if the survival of our entire country hinged on those nukes? Because, what Ukraine is going through isn't trivial in regard to the survival of their country. In their position, all the rules go out the window.

I was forced to make that argument back in high school on some mock WW2 trial. I had to play the part of the lawyer defending the dropping of the atomic bombs, which personally I disagreed with, but was still able to mount a decent defense similar to what you've described.

 

[Rob Roy]

how about if someone just killed both of his daughters without making any threats or with any other goal besides retribution?
someone who had their family slaughtered by russian soldiers on putin's order?
i think i could manage to look the other way without too much effort

If your father raped somebody, you'd understand if a family member of the rape victim, tied you up and let a team of horny Clydesdales bone you relentlessly for several hours then?

I think your suggestion is insane.

 

[Sir Napsalot]

how about if someone just killed both of his daughters without making any threats or with any other goal besides retribution?
someone who had their family slaughtered by russian soldiers on putin's order?
i think i could manage to look the other way without too much effort

my agreement makes me wonder if I might be too angry

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Toughie. Usually threatening family is overt as a tool of compulsion. What gain is there in whacking his family unannounced? I can’t game that one to its conclusion in my head. (I was mediocre at chess.) I dislike being exposed to unintended consequences.

I prefer a morally and militarily cleaner counterstrike like simultaneously torpedoing all his missile boats and as many hunter- killers as possible. The Russians have frighteningly quiet diesel-electrics. In the instance that this is the response to a nuking, using nuclear torpedoes means never having to say you’re sorry.

i'm not talking about a military strike, i'm talking about a grieving, righteously pissed off father and husband who has had his family not only murdered by putin's order, but knows they were defiled while it was happening....i'm talking about retribution on a personal level.
If my family had been killed by the russians and i knew where to find either or both of putin's daughters, they wouldn't last the day

 

[cannabineer]

i'm not talking about a military strike, i'm talking about a grieving, righteously pissed off father and husband who has had his family not only murdered by putin's order, but knows they were defiled while it was happening....i'm talking about retribution on a personal level.
If my family had been killed by the russians and i knew where to find either or both of putin's daughters, they wouldn't last the day

I would imagine that a solo agent would not get past and be taken out by the layers of security around the capo di tutti capi’s nuclear (!) family. Threat level is low imo.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I would imagine that a solo agent would not get past and be taken out by the layers of security around the capo di tutti capi’s nuclear (!) family. Threat level is low imo.

the same people who thought they would stroll into russia and be met with open arms and laurels? the same people who sold the equipment their soldiers needed on ebay for vodka money? the same people who made false reports for years and got away with it till the shit hit the fan? i wouldn't trust them to provide security for a church picnic on a sunny day