Former President Trump fires patriots in charge of the military and replaces them with yes men

[Fogdog]

I think that article is missing in their understanding of how the trolling is amplifying the messages. They pretend in it that all that activity is being done by actual accounts of people and they really have no way to know that for sure.

What he could be measuring in how wide the right wing propaganda is spread is the manufactured click farm trolling that is used to amplify the messages, especially in all those private 'groups' they can't research.

My point is that social media is not dominated by left-leaning people who continuously call right wingers racist. Instead, social media is dominated by people (and I do mean people) who are repeating propaganda and radicalizing people by reinforcing pre-conceived notions. In your post, I interpreted what you said as left-leaning people's reactions (calling them racist) being a reason why the right are radicalized. Maybe I missed your point.

I read your thesis as being: The flood of propaganda is so powerful that it can flip a person who is repelled by authoritarianism. It didn't for me or you. It didn't for about 80 million voters who chose Biden. If it were as powerful as you say, shouldn't this storm of propaganda affect most of the population? Instead, less than half were influenced to vote for Trump.

I think the simpler explanation is that a large number of people in this country are prone to favor authoritarian policies that support the status quo. They start at this point early in life, probably some time around the age of 18. The storm of propaganda on social media just shoves them farther to they right. It gives them cover from facts that might convince them to change their minds about a given policy, or event. Witness their denial in the current election. There is a wall of propaganda against the fact that Trump lost. That wall of noise doesn't change the minds of most, it just hardens the resolve of people who are disappointed in the result.

 

[Fogdog]

My grandpa was racist AF and lived right down the street from us. I was too young really to get those hardened teen years I had moved out to rural MI and got into sports.

My dad was in a union and always voted Democrat and got radicalized down he women route. Im not sure about my older brothers/sister because I didn't really talk with them about anything like this until it was too late (2018 really when I had enough information to see what was going on).

Im pretty sure though that my dad started to surf the net looking for what the orange bacteria he was seeing on water buckets was and that led to contrails. I started hearing about that from him around 2014. By 2016 the wheels fell off with him and my brother, and I have barely talked to anyone in my family since 2017.

I actively avoid talking politics with my right wing radicalized brother and sister in law. Fortunately, they also avoid the subject. There is a strong bond between us that has nothing to do with politics. I feel lucky because we are able to vacation together continue to have a strong family ties. Their two daughters are both left-leaning. If they could not refrain from talking politics, I would probably do as you do. I can only hold my tongue for so long.

I don't understand why people end up being so different in their reactions toward right wing authoritarianism but you and I represent similar results in how we grew up to be different from our siblings. In my family, two boys grew up in the same family, with same background, same education, close to each other in age and we spent a lot of time together with plenty of shared experiences. Yet as adults we have a completely different political outlook. We were both exposed to the same propaganda but we reacted differently to it.

My conclusion is that propaganda influences people but their reaction to it is not determined by the propaganda. Something else is the determining factor.

 

[hanimmal]

My point is that social media is not dominated by left-leaning people who continuously call right wingers racist.

I see, I would agree that is not something that would need to be done a lot.

I think it would be more when someone from a 'right' bubble wanders into a area that would contradict their well constructed narratives, and when they try to 'explain' what they are saying to the 'left' audience, a troll will pop up and start calling that person racist and whatever else to get that person to think 'all the weirdo's on the left' stuff.

Instead, social media is dominated by people (and I do mean people) who are repeating propaganda and radicalizing people by reinforcing pre-conceived notions. In your post, I interpreted what you said as left-leaning people's reactions (calling them racist) being a reason why the right are radicalized. Maybe I missed your point.

I fully agree too, the repetition is necessary for the full brainwashing to take hold. Practicing their narratives to the point they can easily talk about it in real life when they need that adrenaline dump from going full Fox-splaining Mark Levin on their loved ones.

The calling them racist (or whatever it is that triggers them, be it 'Clinton' 'BLM' whatever that triggers a response/narrative from them) is taught to the 'left' audience as a way to end real life conversations.

Another example, someone at Thanksgiving said "Black lives matter" is immediately cut over with "All lives Matter" and someone says racist, and everyone leaves the table. It skips over all the nuance of having a conversation and cuts to the explosion at the end.

I read your thesis as being: The flood of propaganda is so powerful that it can flip a person who is repelled by authoritarianism. It didn't for me or you. It didn't for about 80 million voters who chose Biden. If it were as powerful as you say, shouldn't this storm of propaganda affect most of the population? Instead, less than half were influenced to vote for Trump.

It is just advertising and pinpointing marks at the end of the day. I think they are nearing critical mass of the vulnerable in our nation.

Most people are affected I would say, just in many ways. Slight nudges for the population to do things like give cover for the bad shit to skate by a little easier in conversations. I notice it when white guys (always a white guy) says the n-word and thinks it is perfectly ok because people don't call him out because they don't want to get into a fight about it.

Does that make sense?

I think the simpler explanation is that a large number of people in this country are prone to favor authoritarian policies that support the status quo. They start at this point early in life, probably some time around the age of 18. The storm of propaganda on social media just shoves them farther to they right. It gives them cover from facts that might convince them to change their minds about a given policy, or event. Witness their denial in the current election. There is a wall of propaganda against the fact that Trump lost. That wall of noise doesn't change the minds of most, it just hardens the resolve of people who are disappointed in the result.

22% of our nation voted for Trump, and figure easily >75% of our nation was hit by the spam attack for 6 years now.

It was a lot harder for them to push people to not vote for Biden this time by enough to vote Trump out of office.

I dont disagree with what you are saying. I am so happy that the actual news media has woken up to the facts of the attack on our nation and were a lot smarter about how they covered the propaganda being propagated by Trump's trolls (foreign and domestic) false narratives like Giuliani smear of Joe Biden's son.

Can you imagine what Comey had to be thinking when faced with this same exact moment we are in now back in 2016, he knew leading up to the election that this is exactly what Trump wanted to happen to Hillary Clinton's presidency. But Americans had no real traction with the knowledge that the Russians were attacking us, and no knowledge (outside of his own confessions in public that were confused by his false denials of no deals with Russia) of Trump's corrupt dealings with the Russian military during his election.

I really am hopeful for Biden peeling open the lid on this for us to finally get to a understanding as a nation of this attack.

 

[hanimmal]

I actively avoid talking politics with my right wing radicalized brother and sister in law. Fortunately, they also avoid the subject. There is a strong bond between us that has nothing to do with politics. I feel lucky because we are able to vacation together continue to have a strong family ties. Their two daughters are both left-leaning. If they could not refrain from talking politics, I would probably do as you do. I can only hold my tongue for so long.

I don't understand why people end up being so different in their reactions toward right wing authoritarianism but you and I represent similar results in how we grew up to be different from our siblings. In my family, two boys grew up in the same family, with same background, same education, close to each other in age and we spent a lot of time together with plenty of shared experiences. Yet as adults we have a completely different political outlook. We were both exposed to the same propaganda but we reacted differently to it.

My conclusion is that propaganda influences people but their reaction to it is not determined by the propaganda. Something else is the determining factor.

Do you guys visit the same websites/ talk to the same 'people' online? Also real life friends can be vectors of disinformation/propaganda. That is where I would look.

Also it is hard to know what is going on in any particular situation without the full data set on every human being the Russian military is able to use to profile everyone to direct spam to.

I would think it might be worthwhile to take sometime with your family and look at the website chat logs of each other's groups to really start to see the subtle differences and think back as to why they are slightly different.

 

[Fogdog]

Do you guys visit the same websites/ talk to the same 'people' online? Also real life friends can be vectors of disinformation/propaganda. That is where I would look.

Also it is hard to know what is going on in any particular situation without the full data set on every human being the Russian military is able to use to profile everyone to direct spam to.

I would think it might be worthwhile to take sometime with your family and look at the website chat logs of each other's groups to really start to see the subtle differences and think back as to why they are slightly different.

We don't talk politics any more. My question to you is, if it's so powerful, why aren't we affected by that propaganda? It's all around us but still we don't listen. Same with 80 million voters this year.

I agree that propaganda influences people, I just disagree that it is the determining factor.

 

[hanimmal]

We don't talk politics any more. My question to you is, if it's so powerful, why aren't we affected by that propaganda? It's all around us but still we don't listen. Same with 80 million voters this year.

I agree that propaganda influences people, I just disagree that it is the determining factor.

Why do you think you are not affected?

Just because we might not have bought wholesale into the narratives, doesn't mean that we don't have sharper edges because of the attack.

 

[Bigjacky420]

Denmark has a minimum wage that is negotiated between unions and labor. Minimum wage in 2020 is $16.60/hr

OECD Better Life Index

www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org

If your assertion were true then that country would be a shithole.

Denmark performs very well in many measures of well-being relative to most other countries in the Better Life Index. Denmark ranks above the average in many dimensions: housing, work-life balance, social connections, environmental quality, civic engagement, education and skills, jobs and earnings, work-life balance, health status, subjective well-being and personal security. It ranks below average in income and wealth. These rankings are based on available selected data.

But you've drunk the Kool-aide, so I don't think you are able to understand facts. I get that you will focus on the two metrics that in fact have little to do with the well being of a nation's population. Republicans and their fake philosophy hilariously termed "libertarians" know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Yes and most of it’s taken away via awfully high taxes

 

[Fogdog]

Yes and most of it’s taken away via awfully high taxes

You asked for "proof" that a higher minimum wage is beneficial to the economy or labor. Denmark was used an an example to show that the minimum wage is a necessary component of a country with a healthy economy and strong unions. Unions negotiated that minimum wage with industry representatives. It's not proof. It is an example that shows how a healthy minimum wage can contribute to a healthy and happy country.

Prove to me that a minimum wage hurts economies and labor.

 

[CunningCanuk]

We don't talk politics any more. My question to you is, if it's so powerful, why aren't we affected by that propaganda? It's all around us but still we don't listen. Same with 80 million voters this year.

I agree that propaganda influences people, I just disagree that it is the determining factor.

Is it a chicken or the egg thing?

Did the propaganda find the people or did the people find the propaganda

 

[hanimmal]

Is it a chicken or the egg thing?

Did the propaganda find the people or did the people find the propaganda

Also percentages of the time to consider too.

Just because at any particular moment you might not be triggering because of the propaganda, doesn't mean that you cannot be caught off guard in a moment of vulnerability that causes something to trigger.

Some people may trigger more often while others not much at all. Some might keep things internal too etc.

It is so variable that it becomes a series of partial differential equations to try to explain it.

 

[Fogdog]

Why do you think you are not affected?

Just because we might not have bought wholesale into the narratives, doesn't mean that we don't have sharper edges because of the attack.

Does a fish know it is living in water? I can't say for certain that propaganda isn't affecting me. To say with certainty that I'm not would be disingenuous of me.

One characteristic that I see in the right and why I say with certainty that many in that group are affected by propaganda is the way they cite and cling to obviously ridiculous claims made by Trump, right wing media and laughable conspiracy theories that are propagated on line. What I see most Democrats do is examine their beliefs and test them against objective facts. I know that I do. So, yeah, it's possible to be temporarily off track and heading into the woods with a false assumption. I do this, no question. My signal for pulling back and testing my assumptions is when cognitive dissonance starts to jangle my chain. I'm on the look out for events, occurrences and facts that conflict with my assumptions.

I'd be glad to hear if you know of something that I've said is untrue. I keep hammering away on you with the idea that propaganda is WHY people believe Trump or right wing bullshit because I see contradiction in this assertion with the fact that most people don't buy it. After all votes are counted, we will see that about 72 million people voted for Trump to about 80 million who did not. We are literally inundated by to right wing lies and bullshit but most don't believe it.

Padawanbater and ttystik both spewed left wing propaganda nonstop. The crap from the left is every bit as easy to see through as what comes from the right. We didn't buy that either. So, while I can't honestly say that I know I'm not affected by propaganda, I don't think I am because I'm facts driven rather than driven by what a leader or media site says like right and left fanatics are. I think the preponderance of propaganda is targeted to affect people who are susceptible to it and does not affect other people like you and many others who post here. Could it be that the determining factor is a psychological trait, not which site one gets their news from.

 

[MICHI-CAN]

Does a fish know it is living in water? I can't say for certain that propaganda isn't affecting me. To say with certainty that I'm not would be disingenuous of me.

One characteristic that I see in the right and why I say with certainty that many in that group are affected by propaganda is the way they cite and cling to obviously ridiculous claims made by Trump, right wing media and laughable conspiracy theories that are propagated on line. What I see most Democrats do is examine their beliefs and test them against objective facts. I know that I do. So, yeah, it's possible to be temporarily off track and heading into the woods with a false assumption. I do this, no question. My signal for pulling back and testing my assumptions is when cognitive dissonance starts to jangle my chain. I'm on the look out for events, occurrences and facts that conflict with my assumptions.

I'd be glad to hear if you know of something that I've said is untrue. I keep hammering away on you with the idea that propaganda is WHY people believe Trump or right wing bullshit because I see contradiction in this assertion with the fact that most people don't buy it. After all votes are counted, we will see that about 72 million people voted for Trump to about 80 million who did not. We are literally inundated by to right wing lies and bullshit but most don't believe it.

Padawanbater and ttystik both spewed left wing propaganda nonstop. The crap from the left is every bit as easy to see through as what comes from the right. We didn't buy that either. So, while I can't honestly say that I know I'm not affected by propaganda, I don't think I am because I'm facts driven rather than driven by what a leader or media site says like right and left fanatics are. I think the preponderance of propaganda is targeted to affect people who are susceptible to it and does not affect other people like you and many others who post here. Could it be that the determining factor is a psychological trait, not which site one gets their news from.

Here I go again. Dumb ASH. We are all indoctrinated into propaganda from birth. The TV was on in your mothers hospital room. Your ears work hopefully. Our tax dollars have funded government research and deployment on population control through incessant overload of stimulus since the late 40's. And have enacted laws allowing the media to aid in controlling the masses. It is un avoidable regardless of awareness. I still want fancy things. While fully aware of the brainwashing.

It takes over a decade of your life before you even begin to put the pieces together of the slave master's plan. Just be aware. Get the whole story. And choose to be a wolf or sheep.

Glad people are waking up. Current situation is bleak for some time. Health, humor and peace regardless of sides. We all just want sanity and quiet.

 

[Bigjacky420]

You asked for "proof" that a higher minimum wage is beneficial to the economy or labor. Denmark was used an an example to show that the minimum wage is a necessary component of a country with a healthy economy and strong unions. Unions negotiated that minimum wage with industry representatives. It's not proof. It is an example that shows how a healthy minimum wage can contribute to a healthy and happy country.

Prove to me that a minimum wage hurts economies and labor.

Denmark shouldn’t be an example for he US completely different places think what would happen once you implement it in the US.

 

[MICHI-CAN]

Denmark shouldn’t be an example for he US completely different places think what would happen once you implement it in the US.

Truth be told. The more money in the hands of the working class, the more profitable the economy is. Trickle down is a politically correct way of saying p on you.

 

[Budley Doright]

Denmark shouldn’t be an example for he US completely different places think what would happen once you implement it in the US.

Just give an answer as to how minimum wage is a ruinous thing (actually I think your right, it’s not a living wage). You’ve had two days and nothing even close to an intelligent rebuttal of your statement. This is exactly the point of Hanimmals discussion, people hear this shit and run with it (socialism equals communism) without any intelligent means to back it up. Your support is so far based on “because it is” .

 

[Bigjacky420]

Just give an answer as to how minimum wage is a ruinous thing (actually I think your right, it’s not a living wage). You’ve had two days and nothing even close to an intelligent rebuttal of your statement. This is exactly the point of Hanimmals discussion, people hear this shit and run with it (socialism equals communism) without any intelligent means to back it up. Your support is so far based on “because it is” .

Socialism isn't communism as there is different forms of socialism. I believe the minimum wage would be disastrous implemented immediately (i.e rapid reform).It would be awful for small businesses which employ 59.9 million people in the US. As staff would have to laid off due to the minimum forced wage because small-micro businesses wouldn't be able to afford to employ the same amount of people. The other problem is inflation which just requires a google search to understand.

 

[Bigjacky420]

Socialism isn't communism as there is different forms of socialism. I believe the minimum wage would be disastrous implemented immediately (i.e rapid reform).It would be awful for small businesses which employ 59.9 million people in the US. As staff would have to laid off due to the minimum forced wage because small-micro businesses wouldn't be able to afford to employ the same amount of people. The other problem is inflation which just requires a google search to understand.

They would have to raise costs on goods and services. To keep up with the cost of running the business causing immediate inflation within the economy.

 

[Psyphish]

Yes and most of it’s taken away via awfully high taxes

Most US citizens pay more taxes than I do in Finland, you just don't get anything in return.

 

[hanimmal]

Here I go again. Dumb ASH. We are all indoctrinated into propaganda from birth. The TV was on in your mothers hospital room. Your ears work hopefully. Our tax dollars have funded government research and deployment on population control through incessant overload of stimulus since the late 40's. And have enacted laws allowing the media to aid in controlling the masses. It is un avoidable regardless of awareness. I still want fancy things. While fully aware of the brainwashing.

It takes over a decade of your life before you even begin to put the pieces together of the slave master's plan. Just be aware. Get the whole story. And choose to be a wolf or sheep.

Glad people are waking up. Current situation is bleak for some time. Health, humor and peace regardless of sides. We all just want sanity and quiet.

Interesting, I might not be in agreement with all of what you said about the slave thing though, because TV doesn't have the same feedback loop that computers do. You watch the TV, but the TV doesn't watch you (unlike everything you do online being trackable).

Does a fish know it is living in water? I can't say for certain that propaganda isn't affecting me. To say with certainty that I'm not would be disingenuous of me.

I like to remind myself from time to time that I am not unlike the life that clings to the floor of the ocean, except I am clinging to the floor at the bottom of a ocean of nitrogen.

It took me a while to accept how much I was being impacted by things online. And have to actively think through things from time to time to override the reactions I am feeling.

One characteristic that I see in the right and why I say with certainty that many in that group are affected by propaganda is the way they cite and cling to obviously ridiculous claims made by Trump, right wing media and laughable conspiracy theories that are propagated on line.

Im not a very good armchair phycologist, so someone else will likely be able to do a deep dive into this better. But I look at it like religion. Once you put someone into a defensive position about something they believe but don't have proof, it forces that person into a fight/flight mode.

If they fight, they harden their information bubble by alienating the other person trying to give them factual information with whatever nonsense they start to spin when they finally give up trying to explain reality to them. If they flight they alienate themselves from the people that disagree with them.

What I see most Democrats do is examine their beliefs and test them against objective facts. I know that I do. So, yeah, it's possible to be temporarily off track and heading into the woods with a false assumption. I do this, no question. My signal for pulling back and testing my assumptions is when cognitive dissonance starts to jangle my chain. I'm on the look out for events, occurrences and facts that conflict with my assumptions.

The Democrats have not had the same propaganda machine (no matter what the people who vote Republican say) pushing their narratives. We can see from the Russian attack reports that on the left, there was still a push away from the Democratic party.

Facts and science don't leave much room for bullshit narratives.

I'd be glad to hear if you know of something that I've said is untrue.

I would really need to do a deep dive (this post has already taken about 2 hours since I started it since it is something that is not just off the top of my head information anymore and I have taken the time to actually think about things, which I appreciate.

The only thing off the top of my head was (pretty sure I am remembering right) the ANTIFA stuff seems to strike something in you. And I am not sure if it was you too or not but the 'O.R.W' was pretty harsh. I am trying to remember back, but think too that you might have gotten into the programming language a bit too (Defund the police is what I am thinking of). But nothing that I have noticed was too over the top.

When I first started posting again here too though if you remember back to around 2018, there were a bunch of people posting in here that were very divisive and I think over the last couple years the people here have made up a lot of ground on reality since information has come out about the attack.

I keep hammering away on you with the idea that propaganda is WHY people believe Trump or right wing bullshit because I see contradiction in this assertion with the fact that most people don't buy it. After all votes are counted, we will see that about 72 million people voted for Trump to about 80 million who did not. We are literally inundated by to right wing lies and bullshit but most don't believe it.

Advertising doesn't cause everyone to buy something. I agree that a large proportion of people don't believe it. I would say it is safe bet that you could slice 10% off both ends of the population (thinking normal distribution graph) and the 80% in the middle are not going to fall for the lies (to varied degrees).

Which puts it about 20% that voted for Trump for many different reasons (crime/homophobia/racism/religion/xenophobia/greed/etc).

Padawanbater and ttystik both spewed left wing propaganda nonstop. The crap from the left is every bit as easy to see through as what comes from the right. We didn't buy that either. So, while I can't honestly say that I know I'm not affected by propaganda, I don't think I am because I'm facts driven rather than driven by what a leader or media site says like right and left fanatics are. I think the preponderance of propaganda is targeted to affect people who are susceptible to it and does not affect other people like you and many others who post here. Could it be that the determining factor is a psychological trait, not which site one gets their news from.

I think there have been a few more people that I can think of that were pushing the more subtle messaging (especially anti-Biden stuff) that are no longer posting.

I look at the propaganda as casting a wide net, the messaging is put out there in the hopes someone says something that marks them as a target for further more targeted propagandizing.

This took all morning to write because I keep getting distracted, I hope it actually makes some sense, I am happy to keep figuring this stuff out with you, because it is subtle and important.

 

[CunningCanuk]

Stelter: Most Trump voters do not buy the 'baloney' sold by Trump

Brian Stelter: Fox News has never seen competition like this in its history | CNN Business

CNN's Brian Stelter looks at the TV channels that are gaining in ratings and becoming competition for Fox News.

www.cnn.com