Can you use synthetic nutes in living soil?

[Flowki]

Has anybody actually read real literature on if/what microbes can survive with a synthetic mix, more importantly what objective benefits were noted. As far as I got, 80ppm P was the cut off for microbes related to it's uptake. Great?.. right? but what does that mean. Is 40ppm optimal, 50, 60?. It matters. I also seen little mention of microbes involved in mining the other types of nutrients and what those cut off limits are. Further more, no mention of the inter relationships microbes may have with each other, direct or indirect. In other words you may be knocking out some microbes and thus breaking up functionality of others. Some company's claim to have found the magic combination of certain microbes but it is rarely backed up with actual studies to consolidate the claims. Those that I could and did read up on were legit in the functionality of the microbes however 0 info on the ppm tolerances of xyz or over all nutrient strengths. The general consensus among growers seems to ''half strength'' it, but I don't see any evidence to support that, leading me to believe it is simply a safe guess.

Don't mistake this, I'm aware lots of research is available on microbes within the organic food web. Specifically toward part organic/synthetic, it's vague as hell, often leaving me with the notion that microbe products are the latest snake oil venture.

 

[NastyNug]

There are lots of organic mined minerals that are made for soil.

https://www.growlights.ca/hydroponic-nutrients/general-organics.html

FYI the synthetic or chemical nutrients that are made for soil work better then their organic counterparts. What organic really means is the minerals have not been chemically refined to work better.

Its sad how many people believe organic means its not made from mined minerals.

How to Become a Certified Organic Operator in Ontario

If you are planning to transition to organic, there are a few things you need to know before you get started with the process! Here are some basic steps to get you started: Get familiar with the C…

www.organiccouncil.ca

From what I’m understanding is that organic means nutrients have not been processed by a microbes. They still need to be broken down.

 

[Renfro]

From what I’m understanding is that organic means nutrients have not been processed by a microbes. They still need to be broken down.

Most chemical nutrients are chelated for easy access. Organic nutrients are not and need the bacteria to aid in proper uptake.

 

[toomp]

Well we want high K. But I get what you are saying, so what the population recovers quickly. Maybe just the weak ones die.

I'm not providing nutrition advise. I'm simply stating high p suppresses the fungus. It does recover quickly as you said.

 

[toomp]

Oh good lord ...it isnt about when yheh get started dude....its about the fact my soil kicks fucking ass. They live in frigid temps for the first month of their life and go through snow and frosts til the end so I have to get them started early or they die.
Sorry your salt grow is no more impressive then anyone else on here...especially because you have a long season ...
There is no reason your not growing 10+ pound monsters.

It certainly is a matter of you vegging 2 months then putting them out. It determined your yield. But the soil kicks ass too as they are healthy but 5 months of growth is why your plant get that big, strain, pot/hole size. Those mendo guys do it often getting 20 off anything that they grow.

 

[xtsho]

To answer the question yes you can use synthetic nutes in a living soil and no they will not kill all the microbes in the soil. Neither will chlorine or chloramine. There has been actual scientific studies done that prove that. Farmers dump synthetic nutrients on their crops and the soil is still teeming with microbes, beneficial bacteria, and all kinds of microorganisms.

But why would you want to even use synthetic nutes if you're doing a living soil method of growing? If you have a good soil you shouldn't need to add nutes.

 

[Flowki]

To answer the question yes you can use synthetic nutes in a living soil and no they will not kill all the microbes in the soil. Neither will chlorine or chloramine. There has been actual scientific studies done that prove that. Farmers dump synthetic nutrients on their crops and the soil is still teeming with microbes, beneficial bacteria, and all kinds of microorganisms.

But why would you want to even use synthetic nutes if you're doing a living soil method of growing? If you have a good soil you shouldn't need to add nutes.

My personal reasoning was in reverse. Using synthetics but trying to add a little organics to try and get quality benefits that ''may'' only be had via use of microbes.

 

[Richard Drysift]

Bingo! So why go through the extra trouble. For most a bottle is good enough and I personally get better flavor, yield and control with a proper synthetic nutrient regimen.

Not all of us here get a return on investment. If I had a bloom room like yours I would have to use nutrients to sustain it. For the years i grew with nutrients I could not seem to get weed that tasted as good as what my dealer sold me. Maybe it was my choice of nutes but I'll never go back. Good enough was never good enough for me but then again I'm a total fucking pot snob..,
I started out growing in living soil because I hated giving money to the idiots at my local hydro store just to get bad advice and then try to sell me more bullshit I didn't need. It's actually no trouble growing organic. I find it much easier to grow with just water; cant see how that sounds like too much hassle.

 

[Powertech]

I fucking hate those organic warriors that want to save the world in their grow tents, id use greenhouse gasses if it grew bigger bud

CO2 is a green house gas. Does it work?

 

[Kingrow1]

CO2 is a green house gas. Does it work?

Haha

 

[Renfro]

Has anybody actually read real literature on if/what microbes can survive with a synthetic mix, more importantly what objective benefits were noted. As far as I got, 80ppm P was the cut off for microbes related to it's uptake.

Can you point us to this wonderful read? I would like to study up on it.

As to the phosphorous, you don't need a lot in the mix IMO, for one it builds up in soil. Most good flowering feeds I have run are below the 80 ppm (elemental) phosphorous.



Thats my favorite flowering feed.

Too much Phosphorous will ruin the flavor of your flower and it will build up in your medium and cause issues down the road. It's Potassium you wanna have dominating the flowering mix.

 

[ganga gurl420]

It certainly is a matter of you vegging 2 months then putting them out. It determined your yield. But the soil kicks ass too as they are healthy but 5 months of growth is why your plant get that big, strain, pot/hole size. Those mendo guys do it often getting 20 off anything that they grow.

If you think I'm the only one who starts them before I put them out you are wrong. Many do... yet I'm still known as growing some of the largest on this site. Someone just last yr had a grow off with me...using same size pots...infact his was started earlier. He gave up half way through

 

[toomp]

If you think I'm the only one who starts them before I put them out you are wrong.

I think starting 2 months before putting them out your plants look how they are supposed too.

Many do... yet I'm still known as growing some of the largest on this site.

Well good. It means you are a good grower.

Someone just last yr had a grow off with me...using same size pots...infact his was started earlier. He gave up half way through

What strain did you run and what strain did he run?

 

[toomp]

Bingo! So why go through the extra trouble. For most a bottle is good enough and I personally get better flavor, yield and control with a proper synthetic nutrient regimen.

I agree with you on this too.

 

[Flowki]

Can you point us to this wonderful read? I would like to study up on it.

As to the phosphorous, you don't need a lot in the mix IMO, for one it builds up in soil. Most good flowering feeds I have run are below the 80 ppm (elemental) phosphorous.

View attachment 4414981

Thats my favorite flowering feed.

Too much Phosphorous will ruin the flavor of your flower and it will build up in your medium and cause issues down the road. It's Potassium you wanna have dominating the flowering mix.

It was on google scholar, try typing the key words, If you struggle I'll try to find it again. I'm certain the number was 80 to 90 ppm of P before the roots stop sending signals to associated microbes. Keep in mind this was microbe tolerance, not root tolerance, it may well differ. On the flip side everything I've read suggests 30ppm P is the lowest you can go during veg, most nutrient lines seem to consolidate with base feeds that seem to follow suit.

I happen to think 60ppm is just a good minimum flower value of P to run, I don't think it would actually build up much unless you run it all through veg. A friend used cana A+B for a while and that basically runs 60P for all of flower, with good results. It would appear the buffer zone is between 60-90P, with obvious increased build up or microbe shut off potential. I've personally went lower than 60 once with a blumat and it didn't go so well. I'd never go below 60 again, certainly not above 90. On current understanding at-least.

I believe drwho suggests that high k toward the end of flower prohibits thc production. I may have remembered that wrong, but I stored it in the next thing to research so I guess something was with it. I suspect my flower base is slightly too high in K but I'm kind of ignoring it due to the ball ache of finding a new one.

 

[NastyNug]

Most chemical nutrients are chelated for easy access. Organic nutrients are not and need the bacteria to aid in proper uptake.

Chelated, that’s it! Couldn’t remember it. So, N P and K is N P and K, whether organic ( after being pooped out by the microbes) or out of the bottle. So only difference is how readily available it is to the plant. I’d also like to add that the plant doesn’t need a lot of nutrients. As a noob, I was feeding every time I watered and according to the manufacturer. Fact is I was killing my girls. Less is more guys!! I’ve feed my girls 2 x in flower (now in week 7) and don’t plan on feeding them again. Ok, and I will throw this out too, I don’t PH, and I use tap water. First feeding was 300 ppm, second feeding was 500 ppm. Cheers.

 

[Kraven99]

No, if you use any synthetic liquid nutrients in "living" soil it will kill all the microbial life.

 

[CanadianJim]

What I've read suggests that synthetic nutes harm mycorrhizae by providing the plant with what it needs, so it had no need to trade sugars for nutrients with them, however I am skeptical of this. For one thing that would imply that plants have a thought process and can decide to trade with mycorrhizae, rather than it being a symbiotic relationship. I have no doubt that as a fungi the mycorrhizae are more and less sensitive to various chemicals, all living things are, but I have used mycorrhizae straight in the ground and in pots, with synthetic nutes and with organic, with tap water and with rain water. The plants inoculated with mycorrhizae grew better, in all cases (as there is no way to grow a plant straight in the ground without it encountering mycorrhizal spores I think that result was a result of the plant being colonized immediately).
No difference between synthetic nutes and organic, and no difference between rain and tap water. But that's just in my experience, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[CanadianJim]

No, if you use any synthetic liquid nutrients in "living" soil it will kill all the microbial life.

One easy way to tell that this is bs is to pour a bit of synthetic nutrient solution into a cup and leave it out. You'll notice bacteria growing on it pretty quick.

 

[CanadianJim]

Live worms can replenish any soil if given organic material to feed on.

Lol, worst soil I ever grew in was cheap crap, and it must've been organic, I found a live earthworm in the pot when I dumped it into the compost. Pretty big one too. Wasn't there when I was putting handfuls onto the pot so I guess it was an egg.