Repirations for slavery

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Jewish Involvement In
Black Slave Trade
To The Americas


By Rabbi Marc Lee Raphael
2-24-6

The following passages are from Dr. Raphael's book Jews and Judaism in the United States: A Documentary History (New York: Behrman House, Inc., Pub, 1983), pp. 14, 23-25.
"Jews also took an active part in the Dutch colonial slave trade; indeed, the bylaws of the Recife and Mauricia congregations 1648 included an imposta (Jewish tax) of five soldos for each Negro slave a Brazilian Jew purchased from the West Indies Company. Slave auctions were postponed if they fell on a Jewish holiday. In Curacao in the seventeenth century, as well as in the British colonies of Barbados and Jamaica in the eighteenth century, Jewish merchants played a major role in the slave trade. In fact, in all the American colonies, whether French (Martinique), British, or Dutch, Jewish merchants frequently dominated.

"This was no less true on the North American mainland, where during the eighteenth century Jews participated in the 'triangular trade' that brought slaves from Africa to the West Indies and there exchanged them for molasses, which in turn was taken to New England and converted into rum for sale in Africa. Isaac Da Costa of Charleston in the 1750's, David Franks of Philadelphia in the 1760's, and Aaron Lopez of Newport in the late 1760's and early 1770's dominated Jewish slave trading on the American continent."

Dr. Raphael discusses the central role of the Jews in the New World commerce and the African slave trade (pp. 23-25):

SEVENTEENTH AND EIGHTEENTH CENTURIES JEWISH INTER-ISLAND TRADE: CURACAO, 1656

During the sixteenth century, exiled from their Spanish homeland and hard-pressed to escape the clutches of the Inquisition, Spanish and Portuguese Jews fled to the Netherlands; the Dutch enthusiastically welcomed these talented, skilled husinessmen.

While thriving in Amsterdam - where they became the hub of a unique urban Jewish universe and attained status that anticipated Jewish emancipation in the West by over a century - they began in the 1500's and 1600's to establish themselves in the Dutch and English colonies in the New World. These included Curacao, Surinam, Recife, and New Amsterdam (Dutch) as well as Barbados, Jamaica, Newport, and Savannah (English).

In these European outposts the Jews, with their years of mercantile experience and networks of friends and family providing market reports of great use, played a significant role in the merchant capitalism, commercial revolution, and territorial expansion that developed the New World and established the colonial economies. The Jewish-Caribbean nexus provided Jews with the opportunity to claim a disproportionate influence in seventeenth and eighteenth century New World commerce, and enabled West Indian Jewry-far outnumbering its coreligionists further north-to enjoy a centrality which North American Jewry would not achieve for a long time to come.

Groups of Jews began to arrive in Surinam in the middle of the seven-teenth century, after the Portuguese regained control of northern Brazil. By 1694, twenty-seven years after the British had surrendered Surinam to the Dutch, there were about 100 Jewish families and fifty single Jews there, or about 570 persons. They possessed more than forty estates and 9,000 slaves, contributed 25,905 pounds of sugar as a gift for the building of a hospital, and carried on an active trade with Newport and other colonial ports. By 1730, Jews owned 115 plantations and were a large part of a sugar export business which sent out 21,680,000 pounds of sugar to European and New World markets in 1730 alone.

Slave trading was a major feature of Jewish economic life in Surinam which as a major stopping-off point in the triangular trade. Both North American and Caribbean Jews played a key role in this commerce: records of a slave sale in 1707 reveal that the ten largest Jewish purchasers (10,400 guilders) spent more than 25 percent of the total funds (38,605 guilders) exchanged.

Jewish economic life in the Dutch West Indies, as in the North American colonies, consisted primarily of mercantile communities, with large inequities in the distribution of wealth. Most Jews were shopkeepers, middlemen, or petty merchants who received encouragement and support from Dutch authorities. In Curacao, for example, Jewish communal life began after the Portuguese victory in 1654.

In 1656, the community founded a congregation, and in the early 1670's brought its first rabbi to the island. Curacao, with its large natural harbor, was the steppng-stone to the other Caribbean islands and thus ideally suited geographically for commerce.

The Jews were the recipients of favorable charters containing generous economic privileges granted by the Dutch West Indies Company in Amsterdam. The economic life of the Jewish community of Curacao revolved around ownership of sugar plantations and marketing of sugar, the importing of manufactured goods, and a heavy involvement in the slave trade, within a decade of their arrival, Jews owned 80 percent of the Curacao plantations. The strength of the Jewish trade lay in connections in Western Europe as well as ownership of the ships used in commerce. While Jews carried on an active trade with French and English colonies in the Caribbean, their principal market was the Spanish Main (today Venezuela and Colombia).

Extant tax lists give us a glimpse of their dominance. Of the eighteen wealthiest Jews in the 1702 and 1707 tax lists, nine either owned a ship or had at least a share in a vessel. By 1721 a letter to the Amsterdam Jewish community claimed that "nearly all the navigation...was in the hands of the Jews."' Yet another indication of the economic success of Curacao's Jews is the fact that in 1707 the island's 377 residents were assessed by the Governor and his Council a total of 4,002 pesos; 104 Jews, or 27.6 percent of the taxpayers, contributed 1,380 pesos, or 34.5 percent of the entire amount assessed.

In the British West Indies, two 1680 tax lists survive, both from Barbados; they, too, provide useful information about Jewish economic life. In Bridgetown itself, out of a total of 404 households, 54 households or 300 persons were Jewish, 240 of them living in "ye Towne of S. Michael ye Bridge Town." Contrary to most impressions, "many, indeed, most of them, were very poor." There were only a few planters, and most Jews were not naturalized or endenizened (and thus could not import goods or pursue debtors in court). But for merchants holding letters of endenization, opportunities were not lacking. Barbados sugar-and its by-products rum and molasses-were in great demand, and in addition to playing a role in its export, Jewish merchants were active in the import trade.

Forty-five Jewish households were taxed in Barbados in 1680, and more than half of them contributed only 11.7 percent of the total sum raised. While the richest five gave almost half the Jewish total, they were but 11.1 percent of the taxable population. The tax list of 1679-80 shows a similar picture; of fifty-one householders, nineteen (37.2 percent) gave less than one-tenth of the total, while the four richest merchants gave almost one-third of the total.

An interesting record of interisland trade involving a Jewish merchant and the islands of Barbados and Curacao comes from correspondence of 1656. It reminds us that sometimes the commercial trips were not well planned and that Jewish captains - who frequently acted as commercial agents as well - would decide where to sell their cargo, at what price, and what goods to bring back on the return trip.
all ALL OF THAT FUCKING WALL OF TEXT MEANS is that Jews were business men then, just like they are now...they have no more or less responsibility than anyone else who bought, sold, used, or owned slaves....and they had no more of a "leadership" role than anyone else....so why even bother to post that wall of meaningless shit? maybe you hate Jews? that can't be right? can it?
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
Settle down ? What makes you think I'm uptight ?
STOP. you think the problems of slavery do not exist today ?
I was thanking you for being my Spelling Corrections Bitch.
I understand...when losing a debate point out spelling errors.
Well, the name-calling that you started, is an indication of your being a bit "uptight" -as you put it....That aside, I'm not here to debate with a master debater like you. I'm just stating my opinion as to the subject of the concept of reparations for slavery. I don't expect to "win" in something intended to be a discussion.

To answer your question, "(Do) I think (that) the problems of slavery do not exist today?" My answer is that anyone who wants to perpetuate problems will do so in any way they can. So, to those people...Yes, the problems regarding America's past history in the slave trade still exist. Then again, many other people have moved on from that idea. So, to those people, the problems don't exist anymore. It's simply a matter of how you want to spend your limited time on Earth. If you want to spend it being bitter, then that's your time spent. Me? I'm going to work on my home and property to make it better. Eventually, both of us will die and neither of our opinions stated here or anything that either of us do in life will make a speck of difference...not now...not 400 years from now.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
all ALL OF THAT FUCKING WALL OF TEXT MEANS is that Jews were business men then, just like they are now...they have no more or less responsibility than anyone else who bought, sold, used, or owned slaves....and they had no more of a "leadership" role than anyone else....so why even bother to post that wall of meaningless shit? maybe you hate Jews? that can't be right? can it?
Don't kill the messenger. I deal in facts. Argue with the facts not me. If I'm wrong, show me where I'm wrong. I'm a man that can admit error.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
Well, the name-calling that you started, is an indication of your being a bit "uptight" -as you put it....That aside, I'm not here to debate with a master debater like you. I'm just stating my opinion as to the subject of the concept of reparations for slavery. I don't expect to "win" in something intended to be a discussion.

To answer your question, "(Do) I think (that) the problems of slavery do not exist today?" My answer is that anyone who wants to perpetuate problems will do so in any way they can. So, to those people...Yes, the problems regarding America's past history in the slave trade still exist. Then again, many other people have moved on from that idea. So, to those people, the problems don't exist anymore. It's simply a matter of how you want to spend your limited time on Earth. If you want to spend it being bitter, then that's your time spent. Me? I'm going to work on my home and property to make it better. Eventually, both of us will die and neither of our opinions stated here or anything that either of us do in life will make a speck of difference...not now...not 400 years from now.
Spoken like a white man who has never experience the pain and out come of slavery in America, while living in a the country that practice institutionalize racisms .. Sad, but at least I know that we still have plenty of folks like yourself living amongst us.

I firmly disagree with your last statement. I will most certainly make a difference in this world now and when I die. Maybe not to you but to others.
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
History of Reparations Payment

1990- U.S.A $1.6 Billion or 20,000 Each JAPANESE AMERICAN

1990 - AUSTRIA $25 Million to Holocaust Survivors Jewish Claims of Austria

1988 - CANADA 250,000 sq. miles of land INDIAN & ESKIMOS

1988- CANADA $230 Million JAPANESE CANADIANS

1986- U.S.A $32 Million 1839 Treaty OTTAWAS OF MICHIGAN

1985- U.S.A $31 Million CHIPPEWAS OF WISCONSIN

1985- U.S.A $12.3 Million SEMINOLES OF FLORIDA

1985 - U.S.A $105 Million SIOUX OF SOUTH DAKOTA

1980 - U.S.A $81Million KLAMATHS OF OREGON

1971 - U.S.A $1 Billion+44 Million Acres of Land ALASKA NATIVES LAND SETTLEMNET

1952 - GERMANY $822 Million to Holocaust Survivors GERMAN JEWISH SETTLEMENT

1865- present - U.S.A $0 AFRICAN AMERICAN BLACK DECENDANTS
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
pay them...i don't care anymore, but once it's done, it's done...and i don't want to ever hear about it again...and i don't want to hear about how terrible minorities have it...they want to be paid off, then pay them off...but being paid off has a price. SILENCE. once you take the money, you lose all credibility when you complain in the future..."they just want more money....ignore them."


not my actual opinion, but the opinion of many many people i have asked about this...and one of the major reasons this whole subject makes me uncomfortable...i think an uncomfortably large section of the (white) population feels this way. to minorities, reparations are an apology, but not a solution to any kind of current problems...to a lot of white people, reparations are a way to get past an uncomfortable situation...and be done with it, when it is not "done" in any way, shape, or form....as far as i'm concerned, the only real reparations would be fixing the current situation...which i do not know how to do
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
pay them...i don't care anymore, but once it's done, it's done...and i don't want to ever hear about it again...and i don't want to hear about how terrible minorities have it...they want to be paid off, then pay them off...but being paid off has a price. SILENCE. once you take the money, you lose all credibility when you complain in the future..."they just want more money....ignore them."


not my actual opinion, but the opinion of many many people i have asked about this...and one of the major reasons this whole subject makes me uncomfortable...i think an uncomfortably large section of the (white) population feels this way. to minorities, reparations are an apology, but not a solution to any kind of current problems...to a lot of white people, reparations are a way to get past an uncomfortable situation...and be done with it, when it is not "done" in any way, shape, or form....as far as i'm concerned, the only real reparations would be fixing the current situation...which i do not know how to do
I think you are pointing out the underlying problem with simply paying out. Racism, both overt and systemic will still be with us. Trauma from centuries of white brutality and the issues that result from it will still be with us. But I agree that it's time to settle this. Just not agreeing that reparations are simply a matter of money, although that's part of it.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
a sincere apology, in whatever form, can go a long way to making things right between people.
the underlying problem will remain, though. it has to be dealt with. if you have to do it through strictly enforced laws, until people get used to the idea, then do it...it would require some major steps, though...total transparency in hiring and pay for all businesses...total transparency in the admissions offices of every college and university in the country...equal funding for every public school in the country, regardless of the racial makeup of the students...and that's just the tiny, tiny, tip of the huge ass iceberg...
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
I think it's long past the point of apologizing for anything. Outside of the extremist groups, most people agree that the slavery associated with this country was a bad thing. All we can do now is acknowledge it, learn from it and move on.

If you can get ghosts to apologize and make reparations, then knock yourself out, because there's no one alive, today, who owns any slaves (other than maybe some pimps). All those slavery-era people have been dead for hundreds of years.

If a precedent is set to make reparations for slavery, then it's going to be a never-ending scenario and solve nothing. What would change from us making reparations if we did? Would there suddenly be no more racism? Would the self-segregated ghettos and housing projects in every major city, cease to exist?

Just think about the ignorance that existed back then. It was taught that the negro wasn't even a human. That being the case, how can people who were schooled in that ignorance be blamed for it until they were taught differently? Again, we used to be taught that the Earth was the center of the universe, but then our understanding evolved and we corrected our understanding accordingly. We now know that Earth isn't the center of the universe and that negroes are not animals. Who knows what else we may learn about our world and ourselves in the future? But we must strive to move forward and not backwards.

That being said, there are still people alive today who believe there is a God who came from the middle-East, disguised himself as a human, who ended up getting violently murdered for teaching stuff that went against the grain of the times...but don't worry...he didn't really die because he ultimately changed himself back into God at the very end...thus saving us from being sent to burn in some eternal punishment place AKA "Hell". Every Sunday, churches are filled with people who reaffirm that they truly believe these things...and more! If that sounds reasonable, then anything else can be made to sound reasonable -even slavery.

That's what happened. It was wrong. It was taught that it wasn't wrong for awhile. We learned better, since then, and now we don't enslave negroes anymore. That's reparations enough.
 

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
We learned better, since then, and now we don't enslave negroes anymore. That's reparations enough.
well, see, it's not. there is systematic, institutionalized racism, and until that is fixed, then no amount of reparations will be enough. at least to me, the problem isn't what happened in the past...that's not what all of this is really about. it's about whats happening today, and what's going to happen tomorrow.
i've not one time attempted to imply that there isn't a problem, and that it doesn't need to be fixed. i'm just very nervous about the form "reparations" take...because the path to hell is paved with good intentions, and most of us are already on wheels
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
well, see, it's not. there is systematic, institutionalized racism, and until that is fixed, then no amount of reparations will be enough. at least to me, the problem isn't what happened in the past...that's not what all of this is really about. it's about whats happening today, and what's going to happen tomorrow.
i've not one time attempted to imply that there isn't a problem, and that it doesn't need to be fixed. i'm just very nervous about the form "reparations" take...because the path to hell is paved with good intentions, and most of us are already on wheels
I don't see any possible harm in funding research into how to treat the trauma due to past acts of brutality. Also, what possible harm or even risk of harm can from targeting funds to improve education and educational opportunity in the form of grants and scholarships for higher ed in districts with higher proportion of black students. Also, funding research into the causes and means of correcting institutional racism would be something I'd like to see. We have plenty of laws on the books to enforce civil rights too. Let's start enforcing them.

Just saying that studying the problem is necessary but there are some actions with low risk and potential for high reward. There is no reason for inaction. Other than Republicans in the way, that is.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I think it's long past the point of apologizing for anything. Outside of the extremist groups, most people agree that the slavery associated with this country was a bad thing. All we can do now is acknowledge it, learn from it and move on.

If you can get ghosts to apologize and make reparations, then knock yourself out, because there's no one alive, today, who owns any slaves (other than maybe some pimps). All those slavery-era people have been dead for hundreds of years.

If a precedent is set to make reparations for slavery, then it's going to be a never-ending scenario and solve nothing. What would change from us making reparations if we did? Would there suddenly be no more racism? Would the self-segregated ghettos and housing projects in every major city, cease to exist?

Just think about the ignorance that existed back then. It was taught that the negro wasn't even a human. That being the case, how can people who were schooled in that ignorance be blamed for it until they were taught differently? Again, we used to be taught that the Earth was the center of the universe, but then our understanding evolved and we corrected our understanding accordingly. We now know that Earth isn't the center of the universe and that negroes are not animals. Who knows what else we may learn about our world and ourselves in the future? But we must strive to move forward and not backwards.

That being said, there are still people alive today who believe there is a God who came from the middle-East, disguised himself as a human, who ended up getting violently murdered for teaching stuff that went against the grain of the times...but don't worry...he didn't really die because he ultimately changed himself back into God at the very end...thus saving us from being sent to burn in some eternal punishment place AKA "Hell". Every Sunday, churches are filled with people who reaffirm that they truly believe these things...and more! If that sounds reasonable, then anything else can be made to sound reasonable -even slavery.

That's what happened. It was wrong. It was taught that it wasn't wrong for awhile. We learned better, since then, and now we don't enslave negroes anymore. That's reparations enough.
If you think the problems are all in the past then get your head out your ass.
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
well, see, it's not. there is systematic, institutionalized racism, and until that is fixed, then no amount of reparations will be enough. at least to me, the problem isn't what happened in the past...that's not what all of this is really about. it's about whats happening today, and what's going to happen tomorrow.
i've not one time attempted to imply that there isn't a problem, and that it doesn't need to be fixed. i'm just very nervous about the form "reparations" take...because the path to hell is paved with good intentions, and most of us are already on wheels
But at the heart of it, racism will never cease to exist on every level. If a black person makes a bad decision and a white person says something to them about it, then it automatically becomes a race issue just because one person is black and one person is white. That doesn't do anything but perpetuate segregative views. The whole Black Lives Matter and Black Entertainment Television and all the exclusively black-centric organizations are all perpetuating segregation. It's meant for them and not for all. Even certain words have become the "property" of black culture and are not to be spoken by any other race....Why can't I "sing" the lyrics to a "song" if it includes the "n-word" (lol)? It's just become ridiculous to reason how these delineations, exclusions and restrictions are going to help repair anything.

What kind of reparations are we talking about, exactly? Money? Verbal apology? Written apology? I really want to find out what the reparations people are seeking and who they are asking to make these reparations? Can anyone tell me in their own words?
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
If you think the problems are all in the past then get your head out your ass.
Of course not all the problems are in the past. But I thought we were talking about a specific problem of the past in this discussion. No?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Of course not all the problems are in the past. But I thought we were talking about a specific problem of the past in this discussion. No?
Let me guess.

You didn't know that the states that were previously slave states enacted laws that held black people in the thrall of plantation holders. These same laws prevented freedom of movement for black families that wanted to leave the area. That basically, slavery in the form of black servitude enforced by white brutality in the south, went on without much change until 1950's.

Naw, you can't not know that.
 

tstick

Well-Known Member
Let me guess.

You didn't know that the states that were previously slave states enacted laws that held black people in the thrall of plantation holders. These same laws prevented freedom of movement for black families that wanted to leave the area. That basically, slavery in the form of black servitude enforced by white brutality in the south, went on without much change until 1950's.

Naw, you can't not know that.
Nope. I didn't know that. But it's changed now, because we learned it was wrong and we moved forward, right? Anyway, I thought we were talking about the buying and selling humans as livestock during the slave trade times 400 years ago. Pardon me if I missed some of the remnants that lingered after. I don't make time to study these issues in detail. But if your example happened in the 1950's then that situation is already nearly 70 years dead, too. Again....move on or not. It's your time to spend.

If you keep insulting me every time you respond, then you're going to hurt my feelings. I might have to demand reparations! ;)
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Nope. I didn't know that. But it's changed now, because we learned it was wrong and we moved forward, right? Anyway, I thought we were talking about the buying and selling humans as livestock during the slave trade times 400 years ago. Pardon me if I missed some of the remnants that lingered after. I don't make time to study these issues in detail. But if your example happened in the 1950's then that situation is already nearly 70 years dead, too. Again....move on or not. It's your time to spend.

If you keep insulting me every time you respond, then you're going to hurt my feelings. I might have to demand reparations! ;)
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you would know US history and you confirmed that I was wrong. You were ignorant. So, why does your opinion matter?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Nope. I didn't know that. But it's changed now, because we learned it was wrong and we moved forward, right? Anyway, I thought we were talking about the buying and selling humans as livestock during the slave trade times 400 years ago. Pardon me if I missed some of the remnants that lingered after. I don't make time to study these issues in detail. But if your example happened in the 1950's then that situation is already nearly 70 years dead, too. Again....move on or not. It's your time to spend.

If you keep insulting me every time you respond, then you're going to hurt my feelings. I might have to demand reparations! ;)
You’re a racist and not at all funny
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
"Reparations" will be used as a talking point to gain votes.

What many people who might receive money from reparations may not be considering is, they will be on the hook for it.

If SUCKERS understood where "government money" (debt) comes from, inflation etc. they'd be laughing at this scam.

 
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