Russian interference in elections is a sad joke

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
1. There is No Real Democracy to Subvert in the United States. As the distinguished political scientists Benjamin Page (Northwestern) and Marin Gilens (Princeton) show in their important new volume Democracy in America? What Has Gone Wrong and What We Can Do About It (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, November 2017):

“the best evidence indicates that the wishes of ordinary Americans actually have had little or no impact on the making of federal government policy. Wealthy individuals and organized interest groups—especially business corporations—have had much more political clout.

2. Interference Made Obvious Sense for Russia. Insofar as Russia interfered in the 2016 election (and it did to a minor degree), there was nothing remotely shocking about its intervention. What was all that surprising, strange, or nefarious about the Russians wanting to see Hillary Clinton defeated? Mrs. Clinton was and remains an arch-imperialist Russo-phobic warmonger determined to provoke and humiliate Russia in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. She has long been a strong advocate of NATO‘s ever more menacing and eastward presence on Russian’s long-invaded western border. She is a strong backer of right-wing, neo-Nazi, and anti-Russian coup regime the Obama administration helped create in Ukraine.

3. The Rest of the World Has a Frankly Legitimate Interest in U.S. Politics. Why shouldn’t other nations try (however imperfectly) to influence the political process inside the U.S.? For seven-plus decades now, big bad Uncle Sam has stomped and strode across the planet as a criminal, arrogant, gun- and mass-murderous bomb-slinging imperial hegemon, convinced of his own special God- and/or History-ordained mission to run the world as his own possession. Millions upon millions have been murdered and maimed by “exceptional” America’s “benevolent” agents of “peace” and “freedom.” Still by far and away world history’s most extensive Empire, the U.S has at least 800 military bases spread across more than 80 foreign countries and “troops or other military personnel in about 160 foreign countries and territories.” The U.S. accounts for more than 40 percent of the planet’s military spending and has more than 5,500 strategic nuclear weapons, enough to blow the world up 5 to 50 times over.

4. Russian Interference Was Nothing Compared to that of the Superpower’s Homegrown Oligarchy. Russian interference in U.S. politics is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the regular authoritarian intervention of the United States’ own homegrown “deep state” corporate and financial oligarchy. I don’t pretend to know that Russian intervention was completely irrelevant in a race that was ultimately by decided by under 78,000 votes in the swing states of Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan. We can be quite sure, however, that Russian and Russia-duped trolls and activists were infinitesimal factors balanced against the influence wielded by the leading financial institutions and corporations in “America, the best democracy money can buy.”

5. Republican Vote Suppression was a Much Bigger Deal. Russian interference was a minor matter compared also to the impact of the reactionary and racist voter suppression laws and practices passed and conducted by Republican authorities in key swing states.

6. Other Noxious but Officially U.S.-Allied States Invest in U.S. Politics and Policy. There’s a revealing contrast between the endless outrage the Democrats and liberals express over Russia’s real and alleged engagement in the U.S. political process and their comparative silence about the longstanding political influence exercised by vicious U.S.-allied states like Israel and Saudi Arabia. Where’s the liberal and Democratic outrage over Israel’s big-time interference in our great democracy? In a recent excellent Counterpunch report, professor Mel Gurtov writes that:

"Saudi Arabia has played the influence game just as aggressively as the Russians, and for much longer. Saudi money has effectively lobbied in Washington for many years, often relying on former members of Congress. The Saudis also seek to influence US politics by funding NGOs (e.g., the Clinton Foundation), think tanks, law firms, social media, and even political action committees. Saudi investors, including members of the royal family, may have as much as a half-trillion dollars invested in US real estate, the stock market, and US treasury bills. At the time of Trump’s visit in May the Saudi leadership committed to another $40 billion in infrastructure investments, though whether or not that will actually happen is another matter….The payoff for the Saudis is arms acquisitions that have usually put Saudi Arabia first on the US arms export list. The $110 billion arms deal announced while Trump was in Saudi Arabia came on top of billions more weapons sold during the Obama years—and consistent US political support since before World War II of the royal family’s authoritarian rule. The Saudis have also bought continued US support of the Saudi air war in Yemen—a humanitarian disaster that probably amounts to war crimes. For the US, cultivating Saudi Arabia yields not only low oil prices and a reliable arms customers but also an easing of Arab pressure on Israel and leadership in Sunni confrontation of Shiite Iran and Iran’s partner, Hezbollah."
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
7. The Russians Did Not Make the Deplorable, Dollar-Drenched Democratic Party Establishment Rig the Primaries against Bernie Sanders, thereby undermining the only one of the two top Dem candidates who (as I freely admit despite my left criticisms of Sanders) could have defeated Dolt45 (even I would have had to forego third-party voting if Sanders had been allowed to defeat horrid Hillary). What about the Hillary campaign and the Clintonite DNC’s “meddling” against Bernie? (Sadly but predictably, Sanders has aligned himself [see this essay’s opening quote] with the neo-McCarthy-ite Russia-gate narrative. This validates his early Left critics, who took significant undeserved abuse from fellow progressives for having the elementary decency to note that Bernie the Bomber was a stealth Democratic Party company man and a dedicated Empire Man)

8. “We” (the U.S.) Interfere(s) in Elections Around the World for “Our” Own Authoritarian Purposes. In a recent remarkable report titled “Russia Isn’t the Only One Meddling in Elections. We Do It, Too,” the nation’s imperial newspaper of record, The New York Times, made and reported what might have seemed like some startling admissions about Uncle Sam’s longstanding and ongoing history of interfering in other nations’ elections. Lengthy quotation is merited:

"Most Americans are understandably shocked by what they view as an unprecedented attack on our political system. But intelligence veterans, and scholars who have studied covert operations, have a different, and quite revealing, view.

“If you ask an intelligence officer, did the Russians break the rules or do something bizarre, the answer is no, not at all,” said Steven L. Hall, who retired in 2015 after 30 years at the C.I.A., where he was the chief of Russian operations. The United States “absolutely” has carried out such election influence operations historically, he said, “and I hope we keep doing it.”

Loch K. Johnson, the dean of American intelligence scholars, who began his career in the 1970s Investigating the C.I.A. as a staff member of the Senate’s Church Committee, says Russia’s 2016 operation was simply the cyber-age version of standard United States practice for decades, whenever American officials were worried about a foreign vote.

“We’ve been doing this kind of thing since the C.I.A. was created in 1947,” said Mr. Johnson, now at the University of Georgia. “We’ve used posters, pamphlets, mailers, banners — you name it. We’ve planted false information in foreign newspapers. We’ve used what the British call ‘King George’s cavalry’: suitcases of cash.”

…the Russian campaign in 2016 was fundamentally old-school espionage, even if it exploited new technologies. And it illuminates the larger currents of history that drove American electoral interventions during the Cold War and motivate Russia’s actions today.

A Carnegie Mellon scholar, Dov H. Levin, has scoured the historical record for both overt and covert election influence operations. He found 81 by the United States and 36 by the Soviet Union or Russia between 1946 and 2000, though the Russian count is undoubtedly incomplete….. “We had bags of money that we delivered to selected politicians, to defray their expenses,” said F. Mark Wyatt, a former C.I.A. officer, in a 1996 interview.

Covert propaganda has also been a mainstay. Richard M. Bissell Jr., who ran the agency’s operations in the late 1950s and early 1960s, wrote casually in his autobiography of “exercising control over a newspaper or broadcasting station, or of securing the desired outcome in an election.” A self-congratulatory declassified report on the C.I.A.’s work in Chile’s 1964 election boasts of the “hard work” the agency did supplying “large sums” to its favored candidate and portraying him as a “wise, sincere and high-minded statesman” while painting his leftist opponent as a “calculating schemer.”

C.I.A. officials told Mr. Johnson in the late 1980s that “insertions” of information into foreign news media, mostly accurate but sometimes false, were running at 70 to 80 a day. In the 1990 election in Nicaragua, the C.I.A. planted stories about corruption in the leftist Sandinista government, Mr. Levin said. The opposition won.

…For the 2000 election in Serbia, the United States funded a successful effort to defeat Slobodan Milosevic, the nationalist leader, providing political consultants and millions of stickers with the opposition’s clenched-fist symbol and “He’s finished” in Serbian, printed on 80 tons of adhesive paper and delivered by a Washington contractor.

Vince Houghton, who served in the military in the Balkans at the time and worked closely with the intelligence agencies, said he saw American efforts everywhere.

Similar efforts were undertaken in elections in wartime Iraq and Afghanistan, not always with success. After Hamid Karzai was re-elected president of Afghanistan in 2009, he complained to Robert Gates, then the secretary of defense, about the United States’ blatant attempt to defeat him, which Mr. Gates calls in his memoir “our clumsy and failed putsch.”

At least once the hand of the United States reached boldly into a Russian election. American fears that Boris Yeltsin would be defeated for re-election as president in 1996 by an old-fashioned Communist led to an overt and covert effort to help him, urged on by President Bill Clinton. It included an American push for a $10 billion International Monetary Fund loan to Russia four months before the voting and a team of American political consultants (though some Russians scoffed when they took credit for the Yeltsin win).

In recent decades, the most visible American presence in foreign politics has been taxpayer-funded groups like the National Endowment for Democracy, the National Democratic Institute and the International Republican Institute, which do not support candidates but teach basic campaign skills, build democratic institutions and train election monitors….The National Endowment for Democracy gave a $23,000 grant in 2006 to an organization that employed Aleksei Navalny, who years later became Mr. Putin’s main political nemesis, a fact the government has used to attack both Mr. Navalny and the endowment. In 2016, the endowment gave 108 grants totaling $6.8 million to organizations in Russia for such purposes as “engaging activists” and “fostering civic engagement.” The endowment no longer names Russian recipients, who, under Russian laws cracking down on foreign funding, can face harassment or arrest.

What the C.I.A. may have done in recent years to steer foreign elections is still secret and may not be known for decades. It may be modest by comparison with the agency’s Cold War manipulation. But some old-timers aren’t so sure.

“I assume they’re doing a lot of the old stuff, because, you know, it never changes,” said William J. Daugherty, who worked for the C.I.A. from 1979 to 1996 and at one time had the job of reviewing covert operations. “The technology may change, but the objectives don’t.”
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
7. The Russians Did Not Make the Deplorable, Dollar-Drenched Democratic Party Establishment Rig the Primaries against Bernie Sanders, thereby undermining the only one of the two top Dem candidates who (as I freely admit despite my left criticisms of Sanders) could have defeated Dolt45 (even I would have had to forego third-party voting if Sanders had been allowed to defeat horrid Hillary). What about the Hillary campaign and the Clintonite DNC’s “meddling” against Bernie? (Sadly but predictably, Sanders has aligned himself [see this essay’s opening quote] with the neo-McCarthy-ite Russia-gate narrative. This validates his early Left critics, who took significant undeserved abuse from fellow progressives for having the elementary decency to note that Bernie the Bomber was a stealth Democratic Party company man and a dedicated Empire Man)

8. “We” (the U.S.) Interfere(s) in Elections Around the World for “Our” Own Authoritarian Purposes. In a recent remarkable report titled “Russia Isn’t the Only One Meddling in Elections. We Do It, Too,” the nation’s imperial newspaper of record, The New York Times, made and reported what might have seemed like some startling admissions about Uncle Sam’s longstanding and ongoing history of interfering in other nations’ elections. Lengthy quotation is merited:

"Most Americans are understandably shocked by what they view as an unprecedented attack on our political system. But intelligence veterans, and scholars who have studied covert operations, have a different, and quite revealing, view.

“If you ask an intelligence officer, did the Russians break the rules or do something bizarre, the answer is no, not at all,” said Steven L. Hall, who retired in 2015 after 30 years at the C.I.A., where he was the chief of Russian operations. The United States “absolutely” has carried out such election influence operations historically, he said, “and I hope we keep doing it.”

Loch K. Johnson, the dean of American intelligence scholars, who began his career in the 1970s Investigating the C.I.A. as a staff member of the Senate’s Church Committee, says Russia’s 2016 operation was simply the cyber-age version of standard United States practice for decades, whenever American officials were worried about a foreign vote.

“We’ve been doing this kind of thing since the C.I.A. was created in 1947,” said Mr. Johnson, now at the University of Georgia. “We’ve used posters, pamphlets, mailers, banners — you name it. We’ve planted false information in foreign newspapers. We’ve used what the British call ‘King George’s cavalry’: suitcases of cash.”

…the Russian campaign in 2016 was fundamentally old-school espionage, even if it exploited new technologies. And it illuminates the larger currents of history that drove American electoral interventions during the Cold War and motivate Russia’s actions today.

A Carnegie Mellon scholar, Dov H. Levin, has scoured the historical record for both overt and covert election influence operations. He found 81 by the United States and 36 by the Soviet Union or Russia between 1946 and 2000, though the Russian count is undoubtedly incomplete….. “We had bags of money that we delivered to selected politicians, to defray their expenses,” said F. Mark Wyatt, a former C.I.A. officer, in a 1996 interview.

Covert propaganda has also been a mainstay. Richard M. Bissell Jr., who ran the agency’s operations in the late 1950s and early 1960s, wrote casually in his autobiography of “exercising control over a newspaper or broadcasting station, or of securing the desired outcome in an election.” A self-congratulatory declassified report on the C.I.A.’s work in Chile’s 1964 election boasts of the “hard work” the agency did supplying “large sums” to its favored candidate and portraying him as a “wise, sincere and high-minded statesman” while painting his leftist opponent as a “calculating schemer.”

C.I.A. officials told Mr. Johnson in the late 1980s that “insertions” of information into foreign news media, mostly accurate but sometimes false, were running at 70 to 80 a day. In the 1990 election in Nicaragua, the C.I.A. planted stories about corruption in the leftist Sandinista government, Mr. Levin said. The opposition won.

…For the 2000 election in Serbia, the United States funded a successful effort to defeat Slobodan Milosevic, the nationalist leader, providing political consultants and millions of stickers with the opposition’s clenched-fist symbol and “He’s finished” in Serbian, printed on 80 tons of adhesive paper and delivered by a Washington contractor.

Vince Houghton, who served in the military in the Balkans at the time and worked closely with the intelligence agencies, said he saw American efforts everywhere.

Similar efforts were undertaken in elections in wartime Iraq and Afghanistan, not always with success. After Hamid Karzai was re-elected president of Afghanistan in 2009, he complained to Robert Gates, then the secretary of defense, about the United States’ blatant attempt to defeat him, which Mr. Gates calls in his memoir “our clumsy and failed putsch.”

At least once the hand of the United States reached boldly into a Russian election. American fears that Boris Yeltsin would be defeated for re-election as president in 1996 by an old-fashioned Communist led to an overt and covert effort to help him, urged on by President Bill Clinton. It included an American push for a $10 billion International Monetary Fund loan to Russia four months before the voting and a team of American political consultants (though some Russians scoffed when they took credit for the Yeltsin win).

In recent decades, the most visible American presence in foreign politics has been taxpayer-funded groups like the National Endowment for Democracy, the National Democratic Institute and the International Republican Institute, which do not support candidates but teach basic campaign skills, build democratic institutions and train election monitors….The National Endowment for Democracy gave a $23,000 grant in 2006 to an organization that employed Aleksei Navalny, who years later became Mr. Putin’s main political nemesis, a fact the government has used to attack both Mr. Navalny and the endowment. In 2016, the endowment gave 108 grants totaling $6.8 million to organizations in Russia for such purposes as “engaging activists” and “fostering civic engagement.” The endowment no longer names Russian recipients, who, under Russian laws cracking down on foreign funding, can face harassment or arrest.

What the C.I.A. may have done in recent years to steer foreign elections is still secret and may not be known for decades. It may be modest by comparison with the agency’s Cold War manipulation. But some old-timers aren’t so sure.

“I assume they’re doing a lot of the old stuff, because, you know, it never changes,” said William J. Daugherty, who worked for the C.I.A. from 1979 to 1996 and at one time had the job of reviewing covert operations. “The technology may change, but the objectives don’t.”
wow, you idiots have really fucking lost it
 

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
1. There is No Real Democracy to Subvert in the United States. As the distinguished political scientists Benjamin Page (Northwestern) and Marin Gilens (Princeton) show in their important new volume Democracy in America? What Has Gone Wrong and What We Can Do About It (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, November 2017):

“the best evidence indicates that the wishes of ordinary Americans actually have had little or no impact on the making of federal government policy. Wealthy individuals and organized interest groups—especially business corporations—have had much more political clout.

2. Interference Made Obvious Sense for Russia. Insofar as Russia interfered in the 2016 election (and it did to a minor degree), there was nothing remotely shocking about its intervention. What was all that surprising, strange, or nefarious about the Russians wanting to see Hillary Clinton defeated? Mrs. Clinton was and remains an arch-imperialist Russo-phobic warmonger determined to provoke and humiliate Russia in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. She has long been a strong advocate of NATO‘s ever more menacing and eastward presence on Russian’s long-invaded western border. She is a strong backer of right-wing, neo-Nazi, and anti-Russian coup regime the Obama administration helped create in Ukraine.

3. The Rest of the World Has a Frankly Legitimate Interest in U.S. Politics. Why shouldn’t other nations try (however imperfectly) to influence the political process inside the U.S.? For seven-plus decades now, big bad Uncle Sam has stomped and strode across the planet as a criminal, arrogant, gun- and mass-murderous bomb-slinging imperial hegemon, convinced of his own special God- and/or History-ordained mission to run the world as his own possession. Millions upon millions have been murdered and maimed by “exceptional” America’s “benevolent” agents of “peace” and “freedom.” Still by far and away world history’s most extensive Empire, the U.S has at least 800 military bases spread across more than 80 foreign countries and “troops or other military personnel in about 160 foreign countries and territories.” The U.S. accounts for more than 40 percent of the planet’s military spending and has more than 5,500 strategic nuclear weapons, enough to blow the world up 5 to 50 times over.

4. Russian Interference Was Nothing Compared to that of the Superpower’s Homegrown Oligarchy. Russian interference in U.S. politics is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the regular authoritarian intervention of the United States’ own homegrown “deep state” corporate and financial oligarchy. I don’t pretend to know that Russian intervention was completely irrelevant in a race that was ultimately by decided by under 78,000 votes in the swing states of Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan. We can be quite sure, however, that Russian and Russia-duped trolls and activists were infinitesimal factors balanced against the influence wielded by the leading financial institutions and corporations in “America, the best democracy money can buy.”

5. Republican Vote Suppression was a Much Bigger Deal. Russian interference was a minor matter compared also to the impact of the reactionary and racist voter suppression laws and practices passed and conducted by Republican authorities in key swing states.

6. Other Noxious but Officially U.S.-Allied States Invest in U.S. Politics and Policy. There’s a revealing contrast between the endless outrage the Democrats and liberals express over Russia’s real and alleged engagement in the U.S. political process and their comparative silence about the longstanding political influence exercised by vicious U.S.-allied states like Israel and Saudi Arabia. Where’s the liberal and Democratic outrage over Israel’s big-time interference in our great democracy? In a recent excellent Counterpunch report, professor Mel Gurtov writes that:

"Saudi Arabia has played the influence game just as aggressively as the Russians, and for much longer. Saudi money has effectively lobbied in Washington for many years, often relying on former members of Congress. The Saudis also seek to influence US politics by funding NGOs (e.g., the Clinton Foundation), think tanks, law firms, social media, and even political action committees. Saudi investors, including members of the royal family, may have as much as a half-trillion dollars invested in US real estate, the stock market, and US treasury bills. At the time of Trump’s visit in May the Saudi leadership committed to another $40 billion in infrastructure investments, though whether or not that will actually happen is another matter….The payoff for the Saudis is arms acquisitions that have usually put Saudi Arabia first on the US arms export list. The $110 billion arms deal announced while Trump was in Saudi Arabia came on top of billions more weapons sold during the Obama years—and consistent US political support since before World War II of the royal family’s authoritarian rule. The Saudis have also bought continued US support of the Saudi air war in Yemen—a humanitarian disaster that probably amounts to war crimes. For the US, cultivating Saudi Arabia yields not only low oil prices and a reliable arms customers but also an easing of Arab pressure on Israel and leadership in Sunni confrontation of Shiite Iran and Iran’s partner, Hezbollah."
That is the best Henry Wallace with dementia impersonation ever!
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
1. There is No Real Democracy to Subvert in the United States.

Testing theories of american politics: elites, interest groups, and average citizens

2. Interference Made Obvious Sense for Russia.

Good point by Street. That's something that's rarely talked about on mainstream media; the fact that America interferes with international democratic elections all the time. Here's former CIA director James Woolsey tacitly admitting it;


"But it was for the good of the system in order to avoid the communists from taking over"

So the former CIA director admits we do exactly what we're charging "Russia" with doing, all the time, yet when some other country does it to us, people start talking about war and invading other sovereign nuclear nations..

Maybe those of us that accept the Russia hysteria should look in a mirror and hold the politicians that support such interventions accountable..


3. The Rest of the World Has a Frankly Legitimate Interest in U.S. Politics.

I agree

4. Russian Interference Was Nothing Compared to that of the Superpower’s Homegrown Oligarchy.

100%. The domestic special interests that spent more than a billion dollars on this election cycle affected the outcome of the 2016 election far more than Russia. Why aren't the people so deeply involved in Russia-Gate as hyped up and concerned about that?

5. Republican Vote Suppression was a Much Bigger Deal.

100% agree

6. Other Noxious but Officially U.S.-Allied States Invest in U.S. Politics and Policy.

The US supports 73% of the worlds dictators. The idea that US intervention is to "spread democracy" is bullshit. The US supports 73% of the worlds dictators because those dictators let the US steal their national resources and build military bases on their land ensuring geopolitical dominance over the region.

7. The Russians Did Not Make the Deplorable, Dollar-Drenched Democratic Party Establishment Rig the Primaries against Bernie Sanders

It was interesting to see Sanders toe the party line on this narrative. I think he's doing that to placate the moderates. If he were to deny the narrative all together, or play it down, he might lose the support of some voters, obviously vying for a 2020 bid. It's a strategical move, I disagree with it, but I understand why he did it.

8. “We” (the U.S.) Interfere(s) in Elections Around the World for “Our” Own Authoritarian Purposes.


For the US to make these sorts of claims is completely hypocritical
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
They really are channeling Henry Wallace. This is what happens when you learn history from Oliver Stone.
Oliver Stone is a cool guy. I smoked a joint with him like a decade ago at an IVAW rally in Pasadena and he invited me to his house, he served in Nam as a grunt and got really active with VVAW. I'm friends with him on facebook and he gave me permission to pirate his movies. Old dudes sometimes go a little crazy, maybe from decades of S,D,R&R. I like the guy and every now and then I write him a message and he always responds and remembers me.
 

Unclebaldrick

Well-Known Member
Oliver Stone is a cool guy. I smoked a joint with him like a decade ago at an IVAW rally in Pasadena and he invited me to his house, he served in Nam as a grunt and got really active with VVAW. I'm friends with him on facebook and he gave me permission to pirate his movies. Old dudes sometimes go a little crazy, maybe from decades of S,D,R&R. I like the guy and every now and then I write him a message and he always responds and remembers me.
cool. I would drink with the guy. Pirate his "Untold History of the US" and you will see what I mean. I think it is ten parts. The Wallace adoration is as ridiculous as his JFK theory.
 
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