I'm in the mood to abuse my plant

[Xs121]

So you think the results of defoliation studies are being hidden from the public eye for corporate advantage?

 

[Buba Blend]

I don't see anything wrong with his statement that a corporation is going to keep their studies private that is not unusual for a large cultivator.
3 out of 8 plants died when the power went out for 5 days.
Is it typical for plants to die 5 days with no power in hydro?
I know it is bad for the power to go out in an automated hydro system, but would the plants die after 5 days?

 

[Xs121]

Well, I've seen a few clones comparison too

I don't see anything wromg with his statement that a corporation is going to keep their studies private that is not unusual for a large cultivator.
3 out of 8 plants died when the power went out for 5 days.
Is it typical for plants to die 5 days with no power in hydro?
I know it is bad for the power to go out in an automated hydro system, but would the plants die after 5 days?

Well anybody can blah blah about this corporate study or this scientific study or this or that without providing the source doesnt make it a fact. I can do the same.

Look down here

"Cannabis has been cultivated for thousands of years. I'm pretty sure there are some scientific and non-scientific studies there that shows defoliation increase yield"

What makes the above statement different than his? Would you accept that as a fact?

As for without power for 5 days.....why dont you shut off your light for 5 days and find out for yourself then you would know how your plants would look like after that.

 

[Buba Blend]

Well, I've seen a few clones comparison too

Well anybody can blah blah about this corporate study or this scientific study or this or that without providing the source doesnt make it a fact. I can do the same.

Look down here

"Cannabis has been cultivated for thousands of years. I'm pretty sure there are some scientific and non-scientific studies there that shows defoliation increase yield"

What makes the above statement different than his? Would you accept that as a fact?

As for without power for 5 days.....why dont you shut off your light for 5 days and find out for yourself then you would know how your plants would look like after that.

Not sure what you mean. I am just saying that large cultivators keep their research private and I think he is saying the same.
My question is serious. In soil my plants would be healthy and happy after 5 days with no power.
I was wondering if anyone knew whether it was normal for a hydro plant to die in that situation.

 

[Xs121]

Fair enough

In soil my plants would be healthy and happy after 5 days with no power.

Without light? What would be your light source?

I was wondering if anyone knew whether it was normal for hydro plant to die in that situation.

In hydro...remember roots are exposed, you cant let the roots dry out. On the other hand, if you let the roots sit in water for too long without aeration, pythium(root rot) will start to develop. Check out the hydro section for root rot, see how critical aeration and therefore power to hydro growers.

In a DWC culture most likely all of them would have died after 5 days but since I have mine in a 4x4 rockwool I think it help sustain the roots from dying.

 

[Buba Blend]

Fair enough


Without light? What would be your light source?

In hydro...remember roots are exposed, you cant let the roots dry out. On the other hand, if you let the roots sit in water for too long without aeration, pythium(root rot) will start to develop. Check out the hydro section for root rot, see how critical aeration and therefore power to hydro growers.

In a DWC culture most likely all of them would have died after 5 days but since I have mine in a 4x4 rockwool I think it help sustain the roots from dying.

They would not need it to stay healthy. Growth would slow or stop but they would be fine as soon as the lights came on 5 days later.
That is not just me, I think most soil growers here would agree that they would have the same experience.

 

[Xs121]

They would not need it to stay healthy. Growth would slow or stop but they would be fine as soon as the lights came on 5 days later.
That is not just me, I think most soil growers here would agree that they would have the same experience.

I dont know about soil grow, so I'll take your word for it.

 

[Dr. Who]

I have not seen any scientific results pertaining to weed. Is there any?

Plenty, your not looking in the right place and likely not wording any search well.

BTW, Israel is the leading world researcher in cannabis......

 

[Buba Blend]

I dont know about soil grow, so I'll take your word for it.

You could take my word for it or you could watch for the reaction from the others. You know how this site is, if I say something that is Bullshit, they would jump on me the same as they would you when they see something they don't agree with

 

[Xs121]

You could take my word for it or you could watch for the reaction from the others. You know how this site is, if I say something that is Bullshit, they would jump on me the same as they would you when they see something they don't agree with

I get that

I was just reading another topic and its all the same, the OP is getting beat up. But I think that's not cool, the shit thing we say here, we wouldnt dare say it face to face.

I mean we're all adults here but sometimes it seems a bunch of kids running this place. So what, if the OP posted something or stated something that's disagreeable? Cant we just not respond in rational manner why you think it's wrong? I've seen plenty of threads here that I dont agree. Sometimes I offered my point of view and a lot of times I just move on.

 

[Xs121]

In hindsight

I think there's value to controversial theories or crazy experiments. We might not be doing what we don't like but as a whole it adds to our knowledge whether you use that information to your benefit or avoid it.

Where would be the cannabis culture if we all just agree to each other? I think we would still be smoking leaves.

 

[Dr. Who]

I dont have a reason to tell them not to. This topic is about an experiment in defoliation, why would it be part of my obligation to inform new growers not to defoliate? Secondly, there's plenty enough of anti-defoliation in this forum and I'm presuming that we are all adult here and intelligent enough that we're capable to search for answer/s that we need and make our own individual decision.


Appreciate your offer. I would certainly ask question/s if I have specific problem.

If you really want to know the background of this grow.

I started with 8 plants in a 2x2 grow space, SOG style, all are in 4x4 rockwool. Due to the storm, plants went through 5 days without power(meaning no light, no aeration, etc). After 5 days of no power, plants started to have issues, 3 died and I nurtured the remaining 5.

My original target for this grow is an oz a plant that would be 8oz for a 2x2 area. Now that I have 5 plants remaining, I would be happy to get 5oz. But from the look of it, I might even exceed that. Is there a problem with my grow at this point? I dont think so.

Yes because of what the plants went through, they all have 'similar' multiple issues. Which brings me to my point that cannabis are very resilient plants and I'm quiet surprised that it didnt went hermie on me.

If cannabis can endure 5 days without power, I wouldn't be surprise that cannabis can handle defoliation and still come up with acceptable yield.


It's in a hybrid hydro system


I already posted this but, I mix my own nute, I have no loyalty to any brand.


temp range 75-80 top of canopy
humidity range 57-65 at this point of grow

Hope that answers your question

While your plants are fine, will finish and yield well.
The 5 day's of no power is, or more accurately, has been a problem in relation to each plant reaching potentials.
It also created a vector for increased phenotypical environmental expression. Each plant has changed in it's own right. Each has moved it's growth in some way.

As far as your experiment goes. I respect your doing what you want for yourself. I'm not so respectful of you doing it here, without having done one for yourself ahead of time.

Take minute of thought here. The idea of what your doing has a broad area of ways to actually apply it.
Removal of large fans. This can be limited or expanded to many area's of the plant.
Removal of bud fans
Removal of all leaves
Where do you draw the line? By following online examples? Did those folks doing that change plants in those "original" posts?
So many variables.

Back to the thought part, as it relates to plant growth.
You have 2 basic theories at work here. Seems as though that is where the lines are drawn for the opposing trains of thought.

#1: Leave the leaves, as they're the factories doing the work of plant biology as far as growth.

#2: Defoliate by what ever method, and the plant will increase growth to that area to "recover" from the loss. (Here comes that variable on how much and where to do it)

Do you agree with that?

I commonly see people remove some larger fans nearer the finish, and mostly around budding. Mostly they say for more uniform ripening of the buds on branching.
I know several defoliators that believe they get higher yields (by weight) from the practice. They do! Thing is it's mostly from increased bud density and not increase in bud size.
Lastly on this, I see some growers defoliate everything on the plant in a very different way then most have seen here.

These folks tend to veg for a longer period and top regularly, to get many "mains". Others will simply use a weaker lighting source (T5's are what I'm familiar with in this practice). This gets the side branching to be a more equal height. These tend to be 28-36 inch plants at this stage.

While they are doing this. They remove every sucker branch off the main branch. Once the plant has been put in bloom. They then remove every bud site as the bud develops, below the main bud.
They leave as many of those lower fans as they can!
This does increase the final remaining bud size... It can be quite impressive, and makes for some impressive yields, if done properly and retain enough "mains".

The question then is; Do you have the time and skill to do this properly? What do you want out of the final product? Does this adversely effect the possibilities of plant potentials in relation to potency?
I have not really seen any adverse effects on potency that are worth mentioning on this style.

Let me make an observation on what your doing.
I don't agree that it would increase much, if anything. While you haven't "technically" removed all the leaves from the buds (you left leaf parts).
You have limited the plants ability to properly function at an optimal level. Thus, no gain and maybe some loss in some way..... I prefer to grow for potentials.

I'm not posting this as any type of "argument" to what your doing.
Simply adding expanded information on the practice and the opinions I have on it.
I still say that "what you've done" has been done before and basically proven false. Hence, the earlier comments on it being a waste of time - here.

I would hope this has given rise to new idea's and routes to take in any further experiments.

I do understand your quest for knowledge by trying. I feel you could have answered this chosen method by looking for the answer but, it was your choice to proceed.

Many of those who don't respect your choice, feel it's simply something that's been attempted here before and see it as just another defoliation thread.

This whole defoliation thing. Kinda makes me want to do a "Mains only" plant run to compare. Thing is it's #'s and space limits, not to mention strain rotations that keep me doing what I do to keep my patients supplied.

You continued with your "experiment" post, even with all the negative feed back. Props for that!

"I mean we're all adults here but sometimes it seems a bunch of kids running this place. So what, if the OP posted something or stated something that's disagreeable? Cant we just not respond in rational manner why you think it's wrong? I've seen plenty of threads here that I dont agree. Sometimes I offered my point of view and a lot of times I just move on."

I hope my response in this post. Fits the above view.

Have fun at any rate....Even though I feel I know the outcome.

 

[Xs121]

It also created a vector for increased phenotypical environmental expression. Each plant has changed in it's own right. Each has moved it's growth in some way.

That is very possible.

#1: Leave the leaves, as they're the factories doing the work of plant biology as far as growth.

#2: Defoliate by what ever method, and the plant will increase growth to that area to "recover" from the loss. (Here comes that variable on how much and where to do it)

Do you agree with that?

absolutely

While they are doing this. They remove every sucker branch off the main branch. Once the plant has been put in bloom. They then remove every bud site as the bud develops, below the main bud.
They leave as many of those lower fans as they can!
This does increase the final remaining bud size... It can be quite impressive, and makes for some impressive yields, if done properly and retain enough "mains".

I'm growing SOG style. So yes, been pruning a lot of branches(that I think wont contribute to the grow) and a lot of lower bud sites as well. I did left a few lower bud sites with the aim of running a test on re-vegging, otherwise I would have remove all of them. As to the subject of leaves without going to defoliation debate all I can say is this... I been following a theory that plants has memory of their root to above ground ratio, that plant will react to any changes to that ratio and will try regain that ratio.

I would hope this has given rise to new idea's and routes to take in any further experiments.

Absolutely, that's the point of experiments formal or informal.

This whole defoliation thing. Kinda makes me want to do a "Mains only" plant run to compare. Thing is it's #'s and space limits, not to mention strain rotations that keep me doing what I do to keep my patients supplied.

I would love to see your result and methodology if you do or anybody for that matter.

You continued with your "experiment" post, even with all the negative feed back. Props for that!

Thank you.

 

[Dr. Who]

I would love to see your result and methodology if you do or anybody for that matter.

I'm been mulling this over as going through posts.
I'm thinking I will. After the journal I have going now....

I'll figure out a strain to do this with (one prone to good results for the method).

Platinum Banana OG
ECSD
GG#4
Ghost OG

Are my front running choices.....

Might just do a 2 plant run under a single 1K with a 400w MV supp light.

Thing is. This is a ways out yet. Like 4-6 weeks to fit it in the rotation....Should use the time to make temp support screen to do it properly.

 

[Budley Doright]

Plenty, your not looking in the right place and likely not wording any search well.

BTW, Israel is the leading world researcher in cannabis......

I was talking about defoilation, what the thread is about. I think I appolagized and explained I worded it wrong a couple of times .

 

[Budley Doright]

I don't see anything wrong with his statement that a corporation is going to keep their studies private that is not unusual for a large cultivator.
3 out of 8 plants died when the power went out for 5 days.
Is it typical for plants to die 5 days with no power in hydro?
I know it is bad for the power to go out in an automated hydro system, but would the plants die after 5 days?

Yes

 

[Flowki]

I don't think any here are going to do an actual scientific peer reviewed study of defoliation or any other controversial technique but if you try it a few times you will probably be satisfied that what ever your doing is worth the trouble or not. Telling people not to bother trying because you know it won't work is really I think very arrogant even if meant to be of help. Like I said I've done it to lots of plants over the years and I could never get increased yields but always tell people to try it, maybe I did it wrong a thousand times lol.

Telling people not to bother doing something that has collectively shown to hurt yield if you get it wrong and marginally increase yields (subjective) if you get it right is not a bad thing to do. It simply is not proven for consistent, dependable yield increase over none defoliation, fact of that is this very topics existence. Those who ''make it work'' take off certain leaves at certain times etc etc leaving a lot of room for error, for a potential marginal increase. The amount of yield you stand to lose by experimenting and acquiring the skill to ''defo properly'' will counter the increase for many crops to come. They say it also depends on certain strains and thus also effects how much and when you should defoliate. That is far too complex, to the point my BS alarm is ringing at worse and is it even worth the hassle of learning at best.

My eyes are wide open, trust me on that. If convincing evidence was put forward for a guaranteed repeatable increase of yield by heavy defoliation.. guess what I would be doing?. Coco > guaranteed yield increase. Better lights/spread > guaranteed yield increase. Fan speed controller to maintain correct temps > guaranteed yield increase. Topping > guaranteed yield increase. Correct nute ratio/strength/microbes > guaranteed yield increase. Set backs and mistakes will hinder those results but you'd still likely see a yield increase all be it lower. More than can be said for getting defoliation ''wrong''.

I think you are missing the point entirely in order to push and apply some freedom of speech ideology into growing. They can well do it.. but a smart grower would follow the tried and tested methods UNLESS they were in a position to properly experiment with this particular method. As I've said.. most are not because they simply don't have the means OR comprehend just how difficult this particular experiment is. Proof of that once again is this threads existence.

People reading this thread and curious about defoliation are who I am interested in getting to. If you do this you stand a very high chance of losing yield. Do the things I've suggested and various other proven methods, you will be happy. Rationally boring maybe, but never running out of smoke.

 

[Lucky Luke]

You know man...I really like the way you make your statement sound like its a fact.

What part? Where I say there are cloned comparison grows? Which is a fact- look for them they are around. Or where I give the perfectly reasonable argument that they may have been more controlled testing and use the terms "preety sure" in an earlier response or "I think that their must of been" in this one?- Which I have no idea how someone would take either of those as coming close to a factual statement.

Yes, corporations etc keep secrets. if you have paid for the research why give it to your competitors? A good friend of mine is a research scientist and its how he makes an income.


I get it, you like trolling me but your just becoming predictable and boring now.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Well as I said I've tried and it didn't do shit so that's good enough for me so science be damned lol. Most of my growing in the early days was from clones and outdoors and honestly the plants left to themselves, other than topping early did the best. So you think the results of defoliation studies are being hidden from the public eye for corporate advantage? And honestly I don't think there has been a whole lot of studies on how to grow better plants even though it's been around so long but I'm thinking it's gonna get pretty busy pretty soon, the liquor companies are now getting involved lol.

I don't know to be honest but its plausible and even likely, you said yourself that you had seen a hemp study on it and there has been studies done on other plants. Cannabis had/has a much higher selling weight price so its feasible and maybe even likely that someone has done the research. Not much has not been done before. Vertical growing for eg goes back to the gardens of Babylon I'm lead to believe but going by pot forums "its new". Hempy buckets we are told got invented by Hempy on the internet but people have been using them well before the internet existed. The studies if they exist might not even be hidden as such, It may be in Chinese or on paper for eg.

There has been to many cloned defoliating comparison grows in my mind not to of been scientific ones, especially over the long history of cultivation. Science is not new and either is Cannabis and some scientists must smoke and grow.

That's my thoughts anyway.

 

[Budley Doright]

I don't see anything wrong with his statement that a corporation is going to keep their studies private that is not unusual for a large cultivator.
3 out of 8 plants died when the power went out for 5 days.
Is it typical for plants to die 5 days with no power in hydro?
I know it is bad for the power to go out in an automated hydro system, but would the plants die after 5 days?

If it's a flooded system you have about 24 hours I figure before all hell breaks loose if that .