bernie sanders: regressive

[Fogdog]

I haven't heard messaging from the Democratic Party that inspires me to support them.

You keep touting one useless vote from years ago like it's The Word of God yourself.

Since then, Democratic politicians have walked that back.

That doesn't impress or convince me.

You want to see a liberal or even socialist platform that works? Look up Jeremy Corbyn, Labor leader in the UK. Yes his message was wildly different than the political mainstream but guess what? IT WORKED. I see no such resolve from American Democrats.

If the threat of a third party is what it takes, so be it.

What I tout is the Congressional Record. Not the word of Ty or God. What I cite is as pure a bit of factual evidence as we will ever have regarding what the Senator does and does not support. You dismiss the vote yet can't provide facts-based reasons why. Inconvenient facts? Really?

Yes, I've wrapped this fact around a brick and keep hitting you on the head with it because it is a fact and it is relevant to refuting your weird ass belief. This fact is why I claim you are wrong and I am right.

So tell me what have Democratic Party Senators done to "walk back" from the repeal of Citizen's United? Specifically what has been done? Your claim that the Democratic Party does not support the repeal of Citizen's United is central to your thesis and I call your foundation of belief complete bullshit. So, prove me wrong by citing more than just a belief. What have Democratic Party Senators done to "walk back" from repealing the CU ruling?

 

[Fogdog]

You sure like to plaster a lot of labels on people you refuse to listen to or therefore understand.

Maybe you should do less telling us who we are and more listening. Honestly, we aren't that far apart.

I do listen to what you say. That is how I can honestly say that your beliefs are contradicted by facts. What I don't agree with is your fact free belief.

Give me some examples to show that the Democratic Party has "walked back" from repealing the CU ruling? You should test your beliefs with facts. When facts contradict your belief maybe it's time to look at the belief rather than deny the facts.

 

[ttystikk]

I do listen to what you say. That is how I can honestly say that your beliefs are contradicted by facts. What I don't agree with is your fact free belief.

Give me some examples to show that the Democratic Party has "walked back" from repealing the CU ruling? You should test your beliefs with facts. When facts contradict your belief maybe it's time to look at the belief rather than deny the facts.

No, they've walked back the promise to enact universal healthcare.

 

[UncleBuck]

No, they've walked back the promise to enact universal healthcare.

why can't you defend the claim you made?

just admit that you lied or you are no better than the right wing retards.

 

[ttystikk]

why can't you defend the claim you made?

just admit that you lied or you are no better than the right wing retards.

I was talking about universal healthcare.

 

[ttystikk]

why can't you defend the claim you made?

just admit that you lied or you are no better than the right wing retards.

You're part of the problem. Instead of trying to build consensus, you run around screaming, bullying and alienating anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with every detail of your views.

Keep doing it, see where it gets you or your party.

 

[UncleBuck]

I was talking about universal healthcare.

you said democrats walked back their desire to repeal CU though. you lied.

 

[ttystikk]

you said democrats walked back their desire to repeal CU though. you lied.

I wasn't clear, I'll admit that. I was talking about universal healthcare.

Since you brought it up, I'm not impressed with the Democratic Party's strength of position on Citizens United, either.

Put simply, I do not trust the Democratic Party to act in my interest. They've had decades and have blown countless opportunities.

You can scream, insult me personally, call me names all you want but I have a right to my opinion.

Given the current state of the nation's politics it's hard to ignore that my position fits the facts as well or better than yours.

 

[captainmorgan]

 

[ttystikk]

View attachment 3962844

Lol

 

[SneekyNinja]

I haven't heard messaging from the Democratic Party that inspires me to support them.

You keep touting one useless vote from years ago like it's The Word of God yourself.

Since then, Democratic politicians have walked that back.

That doesn't impress or convince me.

You want to see a liberal or even socialist platform that works? Look up Jeremy Corbyn, Labor leader in the UK. Yes his message was wildly different than the political mainstream but guess what? IT WORKED. I see no such resolve from American Democrats.

If the threat of a third party is what it takes, so be it.

His message was "protect public services/no more privatization"...it wasn't ground-breaking at all, he didn't propose anything new whatsoever.

That said I support Corbyn but your comment points to a lack of knowledge about the UK.

Even the Conservatives in the UK are center-left compared to our parties.

 

[Padawanbater2]

It's funny how right-wingers claim to loathe socialism, yet are perfectly content with Corporatism. Tax cuts for the top 1%, collusion, monopolies, and oligopolies are not Capitalism, not by any means. It's socialism for the wealthy elites and rugged individualism for everyone else.

For those of you complaining that Bernie campaigned for Clinton, he did so because of Trump (bad idea, to be sure). When Trump was the apparent winner, he promised that should he lose the nomination he would not split the vote. It didn't work, of course, but he kept his word. According to top Bernie aides, his original plan was to move forward after the Democratic primaries as an independent, but didn't in the face of a Trump nomination. Clinton then proceeded to waste a billion dollars on a campaign of "I'm not trump."

As far as supporting democrats, it's nonsense. He really ought to be working to form a viable third party, or perhaps even joining the Greens, but he's still trying to work inside the system, and it's not working. Most independents have given up on the democrats after they've demonstrated an inability to learn from their mistakes and make any changes.

As far as anyone being able to beat trump, should he make it to the end of this term, don't be so sure. He's so far galvanized republicans, and they'll vote in lock step for him. If the democrats don't nominate a viable populist or progressive, the independents will snub them again, and they'll lose, again. And they'll wonder why, and place blame instead of looking in the mirror at their own twisted reflection.

If we want real change in this country were going to have to walk away from the corrupt parties and make our voices heard. And too many people are far too devoted to their team to do so. So the media keeps us at each other's throats while the politicians and oligarchs consume every scrap of wealth that they can.

Fantastic post. 100% on point

Without winning over the minds of big-money nothing will happen. To me, that means we should be working within the Democratic party. We've made progress, we have to keep building and winning over minds, or admitting logical defeat, to really make progress. Ideals vs better judgment.

The problem is that by courting corporate and big money donors, Democrats abandon their base of progressive voters. You can't do both, and Democratic voters know that

And @UncleBuck's attitude is exactly the problem. He won't engage in real debate, because his arguments are weak sauce and he knows it. Sooooooo on with the personal attacks! Sadly, his attitude reflects that of the rest of the establishment Democratic Party.

He can't logically argue against progressive policies so instead he's forced to resort to ad hominem attacks. Ironically, like conservatives..

It's time to start a truly Progressive Movement to the left of the current Democrats' position. It would reflect the interests and needs of the majority of Americans. The challenge is to convince those middle Americans of that fact.

That movement is well underway. Progressives all across the country are mobilizing for 2018 and 2020. I expect the DNC to pull the same sort of bullshit in 2020 they did in 2016 (particularly since people like Buck and Fogdog don't support the idea of making the DNCs own written bylaws legally binding. I can't imagine why...) and try to push an unmotivating, unpopular, corporate Democrat against Trump. So I think if that happens, and that candidate wins the Democratic primary over whatever actual progressive runs, they will again have their asses handed to them in humiliating fashion, and lose to the most beatable opponent in American presidential history, for the 2nd time..

I'm not convinced we need to start an entirely new party, yet. I think there are many systemic obstacles that are specifically engrained in the FPTP voting system we have that prevent third parties from earning majorities in elections. It has nothing to do with actual platform positions, it has to do with preconceived voter biases and beliefs. So going into it, you're already at a vast disadvantage.

I'm no longer confident that Bernie Sanders is the appropriate standard bearer, even considering his popularity.

He's still just one man. His ideas, opinions, and beliefs transcend himself and his words are inspiring and influential across the entire political spectrum. Someone like that doesn't come along very often, he reminds me of a much older and down to business version of Jon Stewart. He's still, well into his 70s, absolutely fucking grilling people on the hill for the bullshit they try to get past congress. He's a fucking bulldog when it comes to accountability. I know you already know all of this, I'm just reminding anyone who doesn't following along.

I think @Xcoregamerskillz has said it better than anyone on RIU yet

 

[Padawanbater2]

The Democratic party is the better choice

When the Republican party is as bad as it is, being "better" than that is simply not enough to win elections. I'm sorry you feel that everyone who doesn't vote for the Democratic candidate automatically supports Trump or the Republicans, or is racist/sexist, or is content enough with their own lifestyle - because they're white (of course) - that they don't have to worry about it because of affluence or white privilege or whatever SJW term-of-the-week is on the calendar today.. But since we all know you're such a "facts" guy, I was thinking you should face the fact that there are systemic problems within the Democratic party that if ignored or unchecked will again lead to a humiliating defeat in 2020 against the most beatable opponent in American history.

So please, continue to sit here and push failed policies and failed politicians Republicans have already beat. Maybe they'll win the next time around with the same message they lose with last time..

Can you give me one or two citations that tell us exactly what act of corruption they comitted?

Yes, I could, but you wouldn't accept them as acts of corruption because they didn't break any laws, which doesn't mean they didn't breach ethics or commit corruption. The US legal code is somewhat vague when it comes to things like that - breaching corruption laws -, I'd expect because those who are traditionally under federal investigation for committing them have the means and ability to fight them.. In court or through the media.

You aren't wrong and you aren't right to say that Democrats are losing in Washington.

Facts supporting your assertion that Democrats can't win are obvious -- Republicans control all three branches of government.and a majority of state houses as well.

Facts against the assertion that Democrats can't win are: More people voted for Democrat Hillary than Republican Trump and Democrats gained seats not only in Congress but also across the country in 2016. Also, voters are just now getting a chance to see how badly Republicans govern and opinion polls as well as recent special elections show changes in levels of support for Democrats.

The fuck?

More than 1,000 seats across the country, 2/3 of governorships, the house, the senate, the supreme court, and the presidency

"...but we gained seats, though...!"

rofl

As far as your "Democratic Party not good enough" BS, it is true that Republican policies aren't going to affect a white man very much.

Republican economic policies aren't going to affect a white man who makes less than $30,000/year?

So you don't really care if, say, 11 million families are terrorized by ICE.

How is the personal opinion of not supporting a corporate Democrat bought and paid for by corporations the same as supporting his/her opponent who supports a harsher immigration policy?

Your position is that if you didn't vote for/support Clinton, then you automatically supported Trump, by proxy, and it was because of you that Trump won!

You aren't accepting Medicare or Medicaid and so aren't affected there either. Not right now, at least.

Right. I'm not accepting public assistance - right now - but I have had to in the past. I support the welfare system 100%. I believe it should be improved and substantially increased. If it were up to me, there would be no homeless on our streets. That's unacceptable in a supposed first world country

To think that because I'm able to provide for myself enough to the point I don't require public assistance anymore that I would think any more or less of those that do need it - especially because I'm fucking white - is... depressing. I thought so much more of you before this point, even after our disagreements. But this drops you to an all time low. That's.. truly, really depressing..

So, yeah, you can be complacent about the Republican policies.. Your right to vote isn't jeopardized and so you don't care if Republican stay in power for five or ten more years.

Yeah, obviously it won't affect me personally, so why should I care? Right?

The few years spent - I guess just pretending you were having real conversations with us.. you never really even knew or bothered to actually get to know us.. It was all for show. Because, hey, Republicans are "worse"...

 

[Xcoregamerskillz]

FPTP is a barrier, but it isn't insurmountable. The largest problem here is the complete lack of choice. The only other political party doing fuck all right now are the libertarians, and they couldn't put out a decent presidential candidate. At least they're gaining ground in the state legislatures.
The biggest disappointment are the greens. They clearly project the progressive ideals, but can't seem to be arsed when it comes to building a base for anything other than a presidential bid. They need to make some headway at the local and state levels to gain any credibility, no matter what their platform.
We also need a labor party. It's the biggest fuck up probably in history that the labor unions didn't build a political party at the height of their power. Instead, they trusted the democrats to protect them... and well... that went to shit as soon as Reagan took office. Their other huge fuck up is that they continue to donate and vote in lock step with the democrats no matter what, even when there's a better candidate.
The US needs choice and differing opinions in Congress, not simply two polarizing parties, and the way to do it is to start at the local, municipal, level, but not a single party can be arsed to actually put forth the effort required to affect change, so Americans keep eating shit sandwiches.

Personally, I vote for the best candidate I can, that usually happens to be a democrat, but not always. The problem continues to be a lack of choice and polarized viewpoints, which is why, even should the democrats shift even further left, I will continue to advocate for more parties.

 

[Padawanbater2]

FPTP is a barrier, but it isn't insurmountable. The largest problem here is the complete lack of choice. The only other political party doing fuck all right now are the libertarians, and they couldn't put out a decent presidential candidate. At least they're gaining ground in the state legislatures.
The biggest disappointment are the greens. They clearly project the progressive ideals, but can't seem to be arsed when it comes to building a base for anything other than a presidential bid. They need to make some headway at the local and state levels to gain any credibility, no matter what their platform.
We also need a labor party. It's the biggest fuck up probably in history that the labor unions didn't build a political party at the height of their power. Instead, they trusted the democrats to protect them... and well... that went to shit as soon as Reagan took office. Their other huge fuck up is that they continue to donate and vote in lock step with the democrats no matter what, even when there's a better candidate.
The US needs choice and differing opinions in Congress, not simply two polarizing parties, and the way to do it is to start at the local, municipal, level, but not a single party can be arsed to actually put forth the effort required to affect change, so Americans keep eating shit sandwiches.

Personally, I vote for the best candidate I can, that usually happens to be a democrat, but not always. The problem continues to be a lack of choice and polarized viewpoints, which is why, even should the democrats shift even further left, I will continue to advocate for more parties.

How can an up and coming political party hope to garner a majority of votes for an election in today's political atmosphere with the FPTP voting system in place?

 

[ttystikk]

How can an up and coming political party hope to garner a majority of votes for an election in today's political atmosphere with the FPTP voting system in place?

By bullying the major party closest to them. It's how the Tea Party rose to prominence so quickly; it only took one election and after that the Republicans took them very seriously indeed.

The New Left needn't become a majority, just a kingmaker. 'If you can destroy a thing, you can control it'.

This is why Buck and Fog hate the idea of an independent Left party so much; it terrifies them precisely because it's a threat to Democratic Party dominance on the left.

I say it's time to make their worst nightmare come true.

 

[Xcoregamerskillz]

How can an up and coming political party hope to garner a majority of votes for an election in today's political atmosphere with the FPTP voting system in place?

By gaining ground at the local level. They simply cannot be arsed. All they want to do is swing for the fences with presidential or congressional runs. How about we get some greens to run for city council, or mayor, the state legislator, governor, then maybe a Senate or House seat. Gain a base, then move forward, not swing for the God damn fences every four fucking years.

 

[SneekyNinja]

By bullying the major party closest to them. It's how the Tea Party rose to prominence so quickly; it only took one election and after that the Republicans took them very seriously indeed.

The New Left needn't become a majority, just a kingmaker. 'If you can destroy a thing, you can control it'.

This is why Buck and Fog hate the idea of an independent Left party so much; it terrifies them precisely because it's a threat to Democratic Party dominance on the left.

I say it's time to make their worst nightmare come true.

It's a vote for the Republicans.

Congratulations, you useful idiots.

 

[UncleBuck]

Buck and Fog hate the idea of an independent Left party so much

no we don't, we've literally been telling you pussies to shit or get off the pot.

 

[PCXV]

Even if a new party was created, progress would still require majority support to move any of these issues forward. I'm not convinced it's a viable option. We first have to convince the people in our party to support leftist policies. I see willingness to understand these issues in the Democratic party; we have made progress. If we trust in the merit of our ideals, shouldn't they appeal within the party just as well as from a new party? How would a new party help to convince people to support them?