Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1

[Wisher2]

Great to hear from you @Wisher2! Hope all is good your end.

Yeah the runoff situation has me stumped. Before any plants went in I tested the drip lines to get my flow rate, and from this I set the baseline for the timers.

All things being equal every plant should be getting 1gal per day from 12mins total run time, but clearly not everything is equal as the reservoirs empty at different rates. This is not relative to plant size or apparent consumption levels, and I can see no leaks anywhere.

The table furthest from the res and with the least number of plants - the 24K Gold - has the most runoff, but I think stoppering the unused halo lines after kicking out those males means the same water volume is running to fewer plants (3 instead of 5) and most of it is just running right through. I can't reduce the flow on the pump so I have just rolled back the feed time a little.

Opposite from the 24K and also furthest from its res is the Larry OG, which has almost no runoff whatsoever, not in 2 weeks since flip, and this 25gal res pumps out the slowest (i've refilled once a week instead of every 3 days). These 5 Larry's are heavy feeding plants that have stretched the most despite being the youngest in the room, foliage is lush and perky and bud sites are forming (nearing wk3 flower).

Dipping into the top of the coco I can tell it is damp but not moist, the pots feel light and there is no moisture in the table / hydroton layer. Those roots through the smart pots have dried back also.

On the face of it I would say they are not getting enough water, except the plants seem happy. What gives??

Should I up this timer and therefore water volume?? Perhaps not every halo is the same based on water pressure physics?

* * *

Tell me a little more about your setup: how big are they at third week? How much water do you average per plant per day?

* * *

Oh and about nutes: i'm nearly out of the GH Flora Series and although it has been fine I just know I don't have to crap around with three bottles multiple times a week. Working out my feeds every time is fussy and time consuming. I'm going to finish these runs and switch to either Peters' dry salts if I can decide on the NPK, or I read excellent things about DynaGrow's Foliage Pro and Bloom: single bottles, apparently cheaper, and run straight through.

I have 3 plants in 1 gal geopots
a 15 gal reservoir
and each plant is 4' tall
they each drink .75 gal a day

it is my little tester box

my other space I run flood tables

I can run up to 5 plants @ 4' tall in the box

with cree 3590's run @ 2.1a

for nutes I run Botanicare CNS17 grow
Pure Blend Tea
and silica along with hydroguard



these are Landrace Affies I am testing

the one you dont see Is smaller ....I am testing the growth of an un topped from clone to 12/12 to see how it will work in a SOG. these 2 were topped once
the one on the right is Sativa leaning
the left....more stout and squat more Indica leaning
the sativa leaning went crazy once topped
the Indica lean......almost perfect 4 top structure

 

[ruwtz]

Yeah I hear you. These vegging Blackjack clones are 10" tall and 12 tops each and still only 7 or 8 nodes high. Very squatty for a 50/50 hybrid. Wk3 in veg.

The foliage absolutely booms in response to topping, and I have to thin out the middle fans and pinch off a lot of nodal shoots lower down that won't come to nothing.

Foliage is crazy thick bushy in flower too.





Very easy to clone too. I cut these two weeks ago and these roots have been exploding the past 5-6 days.



DIY bubble cloner running Clonex solution in straight tap water.

I have a habit of leaving too much foliage on my clones which I think is why so many wilt and die, but I still get more than I need and that foliage gives new growth a head start once they root.

Today I potted only the best rooted clones into cups for the SiP trays and tossed the stragglers.



The nursery, the veg table and the flower room are now full to capacity and it's going to be a challenge configuring the timeline of transplanting into the next stage. It'll be based on how long these new strains take to flower, which is a learning work in progress.

 

[ruwtz]

Also, I was at the hydro store yesterday querying how the Clonex solution works so well/quickly since it contains no IBA, seems like just a straight low strength bottle nute.

A rep for H&G was there and overheard me and hooked me up with a bottle of Roots Excelurator. Nice fella.

Obviously he gave me the pitch about how good it is, and for free i'm gonna believe him by giving it a run in my cloner. Nothing to lose and can see it side by side with the Clonex and GH's Rapid Start.

One thing led to another and before long he was passing me all sorts of potions out of his van. Nice fella.

I got Roots Excel Gold which I said not to use with an oxygenated res, so presumably it has bennies. Small bottle, syrupy and stinks.

I'm not about to go drop these into my systems just yet, but I hear good things about H&G line so maybe they'll come in use some time.

Anyone use their Shooting Powder? Looks like a straight PK booster but they infamously don't say much on their labels about whats going on in there.

Don't want to toss any PK's or whatever in this flowering run as I need a baseline grow with these new strains.

I have a bottle of their Magic Green foliar spray too, which is a little easier to test on a couple plants in veg.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0821/2297/files/Clonex_Rooting_Gel_MSDS.pdf

1st page, section 3...IBA .3 %
thats how it works so good, they just don't want you to know you can buy 20 liters worth for 14 bucks off of ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282002250738?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[ruwtz]

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0821/2297/files/Clonex_Rooting_Gel_MSDS.pdf

1st page, section 3...IBA .3 %
thats how it works so good, they just don't want you to know you can buy 20 liters worth for 14 bucks off of ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282002250738?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Yeah thats the gel, i've got the Clonex solution they make specifically for aero/bubble cloners. I have used gels and powders high in IBA but going by the label this solution doesn't contain any at all.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

http://hydrodynamicsintl.com/media/wysiwyg/Documents/clonex/CLONEXCLONESOLUTIONSDS.pdf
hmm, guess you're right, all it seems to be is nutes....maybe just a little weak nutes to keep em fresh is all a person needs to clone?

 

[ruwtz]

http://hydrodynamicsintl.com/media/wysiwyg/Documents/clonex/CLONEXCLONESOLUTIONSDS.pdf
hmm, guess you're right, all it seems to be is nutes....maybe just a little weak nutes to keep em fresh is all a person needs to clone?

I guess so, which is why I probably wouldn't buy it again. I mean it has worked, but I don't need a week solution in a bottle.

Its funny, I ran it at their recommended dilution and I got 0.9EC in my res which seems too hot for unrooted clones, but no signs of a problem at all.

 

[ruwtz]

Sometimes these firms get super tight about their "proprietary blends" - H&G in particular don't tell you whats in their stuff - and whilst its easy to understand why, it really does make it harder for people who care to know to justify these purchases.

Who knows, maybe Clonex solution does have unicorn piss in it after all.

 

[ruwtz]

http://hydrodynamicsintl.com/media/wysiwyg/Documents/clonex/CLONEXCLONESOLUTIONSDS.pdf
hmm, guess you're right, all it seems to be is nutes....maybe just a little weak nutes to keep em fresh is all a person needs to clone?

That datasheet says 95% water, and the bottle lets us know the rest is NPK 1-0.6-1 + Ca 1% and trace micros. Oh and B1.

So yeah, nothing special, unless its the sources of these minerals that make it so, but that ain't my level / nobody cares.

They also claim its highly concentrated, but I cannot see how.

Bottom line is, it worked outstandingly well in my bubbler, using nothing else. Didn't even dip.

 

[ruwtz]

In drip dtw I have been making a note of the runoff EC before dumping. As a hard rule I don't base my feed on this but I like to see it within a few points of the EC feed going in.

This morning on my 24K Gold table the EC was up at 4.0! I know this does not reflect root zone EC levels, so I decided to do a slurry test, picking a sample of two plants per strain table, and got some interesting results.

SLURRY TEST:

I took a 1/4 cup of coco from the top and mixed with twice as much water. I couldn't dig too far without disturbing the roots, and in fact I managed to unintentionally chop up some roots in a couple of the cups. No biggie.

--- Larry OG came in at 1.0EC, currently feeding 2.1EC with zero signs of overfeeding in the plants; week 3 flower

--- Blackjack - 0.3 + 0.5EC, feeding 1.6EC and also no signs of overfeeding, week 3 flower

--- Gorilla Glue 0.6 + 1.0EC, feeding 2.0EC with very slight tip burn on some leaves; 1 of 4 plants still looking Mg def (inter-veinal chlorosis), week 6

--- 24K Gold 0.6 + 1.0EC, feeding 2.0EC with some signs of N tox and Mg def (same as GG), week 6

CONCLUSIONS:

Slurry test samples show significantly lower EC levels than feed EC.

QUESTION:

Based on this, is it reasonable to assume all strains could be fed a higher EC??

Considering a PK bump for the week 6 strains next week. Both are 10 week finishers.

 

[Wisher2]

there is no reason to really feed at a higher ec
what you can do is up the feed schedule
meaning.....more times a day as you can see they are eating alot
soon the feeding will slow to a crawl.....basically your slurry will be equal to what goes in....that is when you know you are coming to an end
as well....try to lessen your run off at this point

 

[ruwtz]

there is no reason to really feed at a higher ec
what you can do is up the feed schedule
meaning.....more times a day as you can see they are eating alot
soon the feeding will slow to a crawl.....basically your slurry will be equal to what goes in....that is when you know you are coming to an end
as well....try to lessen your run off at this point

Ah yes, much better thinking! On the week 6 strains i'm running at 8 total mins of drip per day over 4 feeds; I've seen so many folks talking about 15 min feeds multiple times per day which seems crazy volume to me, but perhaps this slurry test is clear evidence that I can up the feed time.

I will say the Larry OG although totally healthy in appearance does have a drier feel to the leaves and less shine, if that is proof of anything. Maybe they could drink more.

Cheers!

 

[Wisher2]

Ah yes, much better thinking! On the week 6 strains i'm running at 8 total mins of drip per day over 4 feeds; I've seen so many folks talking about 15 min feeds multiple times per day which seems crazy volume to me, but perhaps this slurry test is clear evidence that I can up the feed time.

I will say the Larry OG although totally healthy in appearance does have a drier feel to the leaves and less shine, if that is proof of anything. Maybe they could drink more.

Cheers!

but be carefull as the duration of the feed is not equivilant to how many times you feed

if you feed say 5 times a day with little to no run off and then the 6th feed you get 10% runoff .......that will work much better than 5 min feeds.....if that makes sense

the longer the feed duration....the more you are throwing nutrients in the trash

if you give short feed it allows for buildup of stored nutes to feed and then a long feed at the end of the day....flushes out any excess and replaces with fresh even bank

I hope that makes sense

 

[Wisher2]

also the drier leaves are attributed to to low of humidity for that strain as well as maybe to little water as it may be drinking more......

in any case if to dry you can always mist with RO before lights on

 

[ruwtz]

but be carefull as the duration of the feed is not equivilant to how many times you feed

if you feed say 5 times a day with little to no run off and then the 6th feed you get 10% runoff .......that will work much better than 5 min feeds.....if that makes sense

the longer the feed duration....the more you are throwing nutrients in the trash

if you give short feed it allows for buildup of stored nutes to feed and then a long feed at the end of the day....flushes out any excess and replaces with fresh even bank

I hope that makes sense

Interesting info and solid common sense approach. Currently I have the heaviest/longest feed as the first one at lights-on, and getting incrementally shorter as the days go on. No single feed is more than 4 minutes, but I see the logic in your advice and will be switching this around.

So, something like 4 feeds of 2min, 3min, 1min, 2min (8mins total is pretty typical, although I have bumped the Larry's up to 10mins with those seemingly dryer leaves).

 

[ruwtz]

I have realized whilst working with this first flowering phase that not all dripper halos are equal, and is probably a fault with my DIY job of drilling those dripper holes. It is not evident in plant growth (they are all doing well/equal, bar one of the GG4's which permanently looks Mg hungry), but simply by eyeballing the halos when the pump is on I can see flow does vary: some pour out, some drip.

I'm sure its a mixture of water pressure and hole size, but nothing I'm going to worry about at this point. Plants are happy, as am I.

In principle I like spray drippers or Bluemats or similar, but I imagine it adds extra work avoiding clogs or adding in a product like Drip Clean which i'm not about to do mid cycle.

 

[ruwtz]

After weeks of total bewilderment as to why two of my four reservoirs in flower run down real fast, and meddling with feed times and even puncturing larger holes in my halo with no effect, i've only just realized whats going on...

The water is siphoning after the pumps are turned off!

Both of these reservoirs are stacked higher than the pots, so really it is a no-brainer, but i'm no water physics expert so I hadn't realized until I just watched it happening.

To see this I opened the valve at the end of the drip line that was flowing water constantly even with the pump off. When I disconnected the hose from the unpowered pump the flow would stop. Solid proof of siphoning.

Consequently, plants from these two reservoirs have been getting anywhere between 2 and 5 gallons EACH per day, with seemingly no negative results for growth or bloom (I can't claim noticeably positive response either, so all I can conclude is that coco is incredibly hard to overwater with mature plants).

So what to do?

The simplest solution I can find is to make a hole in the hose just below the water line in the res so that air can break the siphon should the water drop below this level. Obviously when it does some water pressure is lost in the line but at least this water can only flow back into the reservoir.

I guess something like a check valve would work too, or something to stop back flow, but if the above works then i'll go with simple.

What do you guys reckon??

 

[ttystikk]

Anti siphon is necessary or you will have the problem continue.

 

[Wisher2]

yeah I always run a check/anti siphon/ back flow preventer in my line.......my system is always hard line 1/2" pvc with halos but I always run a check valve

 

[ruwtz]

Anti siphon is necessary or you will have the problem continue.

Well yeah that's where I'm at!