Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1

@Wisher2 as you know i'm having a go at running your SIP-style tray setup for rooted clones. Take a look at some pics here...


This tray is Blackjack and they were doing very well until some leaf curl was noticed 48hrs ago and they seem to have gotten worse. Some leaves have started losing color and growth has slowed.

- - - Temps high 70's, humidity = mid 50's (sharing veg room)
- - - Tray is loaded with GH trio + CalMag + Hydroguard + Silica Blast, 0.4EC + pH5.5.

Cloned on 9/22 and into these cups around 10 days ago. Roots starting to grow out of the slits at the bottom. I was having issues with a translucent mucus forming at the same slits, but that has lessened since I top fed a bennie tea.



Right next to them in a separate tray, the Larry OG clones, cut at the same time and into cups at the same time, together with identical room conditions + feed.

These are also rooting out the bottom of the cups so they are well established here.

I had a lot of early upward growth and not much foliage, leaves were yellowing much quicker and purple stems on new growth. I figured Mg deficiency which seems unlikely since i'm adding CalMag, but in any case I topped up with a little epsom 48hrs ago. No improvement so perhaps it is being locked out?

pH is fine so may be overfed at 0.4EC (although this OG family is notoriously hungry), so I halved this to 0.2EC. Again, no improvement.

Perhaps they are in fact being underfed?? Seems unlikely since some of those tips are burning.

Leaf droop seems consistent with overwatering, but as I understand it this should not be a concern with SIP, right? Water line is about 1/2" inch up the cups and regularly topped off.

Whichever way the Larry is proving to be a fussy eater - the mature ones in veg aren't where I want them to be either: lanky, with thin foliage and slow growth.

I'd love to hear what you make of this since you're a champion of this system and turned me on to it!

**the very yellow leaves you can see i'm not too concerned about as these are old fans that fed them whilst rooting**

ruwtz said:

@Wisher2 as you know i'm having a go at running your SIP-style tray setup for rooted clones. Take a look at some pics here...


This tray is Blackjack and they were doing very well until some leaf curl was noticed 48hrs ago and they seem to have gotten worse. Some leaves have started losing color and growth has slowed.

Temps high 70's, room humidity of mid 50's, tray is loaded with GH trio + CalMag + Hydroguard + Silica Blast, 0.4EC + pH5.5.

Cloned on 9/22 and into these cups around 10 days ago. Roots starting to grow out of the slits at the bottom. I was having issues with a translucent mucus forming at the same slits, but that has lessened since I top fed a bennie tea.

View attachment 3801521

Right next to them in a separate tray, the Larry OG clones, cut at the same time and into cups at the same time, together with same room conditions + feed.

I had a lot of early upward growth and not much foliage, leaves were yellowing much quicker and purple stems on new growth. I figured Mg deficiency which seems unlikely since i'm adding CalMag, so I topped up with a little epsom 48hrs ago. No improvement so perhaps it is being locked out?

These are also rooting out the bottom of the cups so they are well established here.

pH is fine so may be overfed at 0.4EC (although this OG family is notoriously hungry), so I halved this to 0.2EC. Again, no improvement.

Perhaps they are in fact being underfed?? Seems unlikely since some of those tips are burning.

Leaf droop seems consistent with overwatering, but as I understand it this should not be a concern with SIP, right? Water line is about 1/2" inch up the cups and regularly topped off.

I'd love to hear what you make of this since you're a champion of this system and turned me on to it!

**the very yellow leaves you can see i'm not too concerned about as these are old fans that fed them whilst rooting**

View attachment 3801522 View attachment 3801523 View attachment 3801524 View attachment 3801525

Click to expand...

to me they look SUPER underfed
my clones and seedlings are run @ the very least 1.0 ec
underfed looks the same as over fed
to much nutrients will burn tips
to little will brown the tips looking like burn but actually the leaves are on there death bed
if you look at any nutrient feeding chart....you will notice they have a 1 week clone/seedling stage and then the nutes are bumpd
so that would be my guess
I have never experienced that before in my growing.......
in your pictures
from the stems to the leaves
I can see they are defecient in everything from NPK -Mg
when the stems start purpling out.....they are not getting enough

Wisher2 said:

to me they look SUPER underfed
my clones and seedlings are run @ the very least 1.0 ec
underfed looks the same as over fed
to much nutrients will burn tips
to little will brown the tips looking like burn but actually the leaves are on there death bed
if you look at any nutrient feeding chart....you will notice they have a 1 week clone/seedling stage and then the nutes are bumpd
so that would be my guess
I have never experienced that before in my growing.......
in your pictures
from the stems to the leaves
I can see they are defecient in everything from NPK -Mg
when the stems start purpling out.....they are not getting enough

Click to expand...

I hear you, and I know these Larry's are supposed to be hungry, just so nervous of overfeeding from last time!

So what happens to ramping up feed for small plants? From low to high? My mature girls in veg are only at 1.0, the same in transition / early flower too.

How does a plant this small tolerate a high feed like 1.0EC??

EC 1.0 is very light.

ttystikk said:

EC 1.0 is very light.

Click to expand...

Ok well thats confusing. What are you guys feeding in late veg/transition?? I pay no attention to feeding charts after problems following them in soil and cooking these guys early on.

I switched from ppm to EC as thats the prevailing trend for accuracy it seems, and i'm still converting ppm to EC in my head. I measure in EC and talk in EC so I will get there, like learning a new language.

ruwtz said:

Ok well thats confusing. What are you guys feeding in late veg/transition?? I pay no attention to feeding charts after problems following them in soil and cooking these guys early on.

I switched from ppm to EC as thats the prevailing trend for accuracy it seems, and i'm still converting ppm to EC in my head. I measure in EC and talk in EC so I will get there, like learning a new language.

Click to expand...

I feed 2.2 EC in veg, up to 2.7 in bloom. In soilless.

Yes, I use EC because it's less confusing than the handful of ppm scales out there. There's only one EC.

ttystikk said:

I feed 2.2 EC in veg, up to 2.7 in bloom. In soilless.

Click to expand...

Wow, ok. I guess I need to ramp them all up over the next few days then!

Well timed as today is res change day.

ruwtz said:

Wow, ok. I guess I need to ramp them all up over the next few days then!

Well timed as today is res change day.

Click to expand...

go slow...in small increments
say every 2-3 days bump it up a few points

if we talk ppm on the .5 scale..........you should be feeding them at least 500-650ppm .5 scale

I don't go as high as ttystikk

but I run 1.2-1.4 clone/seedlings
1.5-1.8 veg
1.9-2.1 peak flower

every nutrient company and environment is differ but......you are feeding them active soil feeds...not inert media feeds

most people that run say the lucas formula run 2.0 from clone on
with 2 part/Flora Nova Bloom/Maxi Bloom
not saying that feed is the best but I have seen many crops for many years in Hydro being feed this formula with great success

when clones show roots...they get 1/2 dose so.....1.0 then in a couple days 1.5....... then 2.0 till the end

I don't advocate for super high ec values but you gotta give them a chance to photosynthesize

Today was res change day in veg so i've bumped the fertigation to 1.3EC and added back the Hydroguard as planned. I am also brewing a tea every 48hrs using Recharge which has all the best bennies in one product, and this is being top fed only to all plants in the garden.

Roots in the Larry OG and Blackjack were running haywire on the table so i've potted them up into the 5gal Smart Pots that they will finish in. I preloaded the coco with pH5.6/0.8EC and scratched in some myco. These roots were dunked in the Recharge tea before going into the pots.

All the Larry OG's:



A Larry OG:





Roots were browning on the top surface where they were hitting light and air. These thick white roots were growing right under the hydroton layer on the table.

If I have been underfeeding these girls then it has obviously benefitted root development as they go looking for more food.



Here's the double potting of 2gal into the 5gal smart pots, nestling these roots on top of +6" of coco. Best I could do was to roll down the sides of the 2gal and to expose the rockwool block to the new medium. I do not think there will be any lateral root growth at this stage with all the roots focusing downwards.





The Larry's potted up:

These will need training a little as they are growing out lanky.



The Blackjacks potted up:

Much healthier, thicker, bushier foliage than the Larry's, but i'm sure both strains will appreciate the new improved feed.



And the Blackjacks back on the veg table...



Will be cloning both these strains in a week or so and flipping in a month. Should have some big girls by then, coming on for 12 weeks in veg at that point.

We will have to see if my decision to abandon the sterile res approach pays off. If the girls stay keen and I can avoid floaties or gunk in my res then happy days.

ruwtz said:

Today was res change day in veg so i've bumped the fertigation to 1.3EC and added back the Hydroguard as planned. I am also brewing a tea every 48hrs using Recharge which has all the best bennies in one product, and this is being top fed only to all plants in the garden.

Roots in the Larry OG and Blackjack were running haywire on the table so i've potted them up into the 5gal Smart Pots that they will finish in. I preloaded the coco with pH5.6/0.8EC and scratched in some myco. These roots were dunked in the Recharge tea before going into the pots.

All the Larry OG's:

View attachment 3801748

A Larry OG:

View attachment 3801755

View attachment 3801742

Roots were browning on the top surface where they were hitting light and air. These thick white roots were growing right under the hydroton layer on the table.

If I have been underfeeding these girls then it has obviously benefitted root development as they go looking for more food.

View attachment 3801744

Here's the double potting of 2gal into the 5gal smart pots, nestling these roots on top of +6" of coco. Best I could do was to roll down the sides of the 2gal and to expose the rockwool block to the new medium. I do not think there will be any lateral root growth at this stage with all the roots focusing downwards.

View attachment 3801749

View attachment 3801753

The Larry's potted up:

These will need training a little as they are growing out lanky.

View attachment 3801752

The Blackjacks potted up:

Much healthier, thicker, bushier foliage than the Larry's, but i'm sure both strains will appreciate the new improved feed.

View attachment 3801750

And the Blackjacks back on the veg table...

View attachment 3801754

Will be cloning both these strains in a week or so and flipping in a month. Should have some big girls by then, coming on for 12 weeks in veg at that point.

We will have to see if my decision to abandon the sterile res approach pays off. If the girls stay keen and I can avoid floaties or gunk in my res then happy days.

Click to expand...

if I were you
once you drop the pot into the larger pot....I would at least add enough coco to cover those roots by about 1" up the side
soo they can have a home to live in.....as of right now....they are just kinda sitting there
also....they def will grow lateral roots
as they try to anchor themselves into there new home
so I believe it to be wise to just run the coco up the side a little

also....they will continue to grow lateral roots until they die....as they use these lateral as feeders

Wisher2 said:

if I were you
once you drop the pot into the larger pot....I would at least add enough coco to cover those roots by about 1" up the side
soo they can have a home to live in.....as of right now....they are just kinda sitting there
also....they def will grow lateral roots
as they try to anchor themselves into there new home
so I believe it to be wise to just run the coco up the side a little

also....they will continue to grow lateral roots until they die....as they use these lateral as feeders

Click to expand...

Oh yeah I've totally done that. The pot is completely full of coco. Sorry it wasn't clear!

cool.....good

back on track! nice work.

I just read this whole thread and WOW what a roller coaster of a ride. I've learned a lot and appreciate everyone's effort . I will stay glued to it, hell it's better than a soap opera lol. Good luck and a hell of a effort .

I just found a handful of spider mites and several eggs on one of my Larry's in veg. I removed and destroyed the single suspect leaf, then treated the plant with an SM90 foliar spray, and I also drenched the top surface of the coco.

I spent the last hour studying the rest of the plants on the same table but found nothing.

It is hot and dry outside and i've fought spider mites in my outdoor garden countless times: they completely devastated a huge tomato crop one year. They are absolute fuckers so I will be staying very close to this situation.

ruwtz said:

I just found a handful of spider mites and several eggs on one of my Larry's in veg. I removed and destroyed the single suspect leaf, then treated the plant with an SM90 foliar spray, and I also drenched the top surface of the coco.

I spent the last hour studying the rest of the plants on the same table but found nothing.

It is hot and dry outside and i've fought spider mites in my outdoor garden countless times: they completely devastated a huge tomato crop one year. They are absolute fuckers so I will be staying very close to this situation.

Click to expand...

I like to alternate sprays of Einstein oil and spinosad "Captain Jacks"
weekly in veg......

I bet they've breezed in through my shed door. I'm really impressed when people go the whole way with lab-level cleanliness: change of clothes, sterile shoe dunk etc, but it just would not be practical for me.

Will be keeping an eye on these asshats.

I use Safer insecticidal soap as a maintenance and preventative. If an infestation gets a foothold I break out the organic pyrethrins. Can't use that within a month of chop so I try to stay on them with the insecticidal soap.

No sign of the spider mites since, but i'm taking no chances and will work a preventative into my weekly duties.

Both veg and flower are grateful for the increased feed regimen: i've bumped veg to 1.5EC over the course of a few days, and flower to 1.8EC. With drip dtw in flower i've been able to record runoff every day - both in volume and EC - which with each incremental increase has been consistently below what i'm putting in. I realize its not scientific but it does tell me they are at least feeding well. Runoff volume is now at 1gal per table of 5 plants, averaging this as 1/5gal per plant is bang on at 20% runoff since they are fed just under a gallon each per day.

I've been bumping the Gavitas up 5% per day since the flip and now at 110% (800w-something), and AC holds good at 76-78F, dropping to low 70's at lights-off.

Here's a look at the 24K Gold girls:


**A snap from my phone whilst shooting through some cheapo UV glasses I bought to work better in flower room**


I'm away for three days this weekend which will be the first test of this new garden's ability to automate: reservoirs are fresh and topped up, light cycles are set, CO2 on timer and dehu's in both rooms are draining into separate drums. Rooted clones in the SiP-style tray (ala @Wisher2) have a small gravity feed at 1.0EC: not done this before so we'll see if it can hold out until I get back.

Only thing i'm worried about is the new clones staying humid under the domes, but not the end of the world if I lose them.

Came back from a weekend trip to find big trouble in the flower room. Beautiful, luscious, vibrant plants... turning hermie.

My table of five 24K Gold looks like they are showing 3 plants with pollen sacs and pistils. All of this has appeared in just 4 days whilst I was away. Take a look:



These were all feminized seeds from DNA, but presumably their early life stress has flipped the switch on them here, and its devastating to this run, leaving me with just 2 females for this strain.

Bizarrely on the next table 5 Gorilla Glue bagseeds are going strength to strength, all fems.






* * *

In veg, the Blackjack and Larry OG are doing ok, some signs of nute burn at leaf tips on the Blackjack presumably due to upping the feed last week so i've rolled it back a couple of points to 1.6EC.