Hillary Clinton’s camp is FEARFUL of Bernie Sanders..

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Why do you ignore the redistribution from the bottom to the top?

Do you honestly not believe that is not happening?
i like how he thinks the 2-3% of americans on welfare are stuck on a "liberal government plantation" (even though more than 50% of them no longer need it after a year or two).

but the 30% of americans who work full time yet have no savings just don't now how to handle their money. don't blame the rich for anything, it's about 100 million americans who just don't know how to balance their checkbooks. they're not on any type of "plantation" though, even though they can't just figure out a way to make their stagnant wages stretch further for years and years and years.



want a second bedroom on your apartment?

 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Why do you ignore the redistribution from the bottom to the top?

Do you honestly not believe that is not happening?
From the bottom to the top?

47% of Americans pay no income taxes and a large percentage of those people probably get a tax refund despite not having paid any taxes.

Your "bottom up redistribution" is called "people buying shit", you insufferable moron.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Hang on, so the lower income people are buying things from Corporations?


What caused the 'bottom 90%' income growth to go from 80% from 1949-1953 to ~-17% from 2009-2012?

What caused the 'top 10%' income growth to go from 20% in 1949-1953 to ~117% from 2009-2012?

Did everyone in 1949, and especially from 1975-1979 just all of a sudden decide to spend 100% of their income on bullshit they didn't need? Did they all just say "HERE 1%, TAKE ALL MY MONIES! I CAN'T BALANCE MY SHIT ANYWAY!"?

Or, more likely, did a small group of very wealthy individuals give bribes to the politicians in charge of changing the tax codes in favor of corporate interests? Come on now, think long and hard on that one..
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member


What caused the 'bottom 90%' income growth to go from 80% from 1949-1953 to ~-17% from 2009-2012?

What caused the 'top 10%' income growth to go from 20% in 1949-1953 to ~117% from 2009-2012?

Did everyone in 1949, and especially from 1975-1979 just all of a sudden decide to spend 100% of their income on bullshit they didn't need? Did they all just say "HERE 1%, TAKE ALL MY MONIES! I CAN'T BALANCE MY SHIT ANYWAY!"?

Or, more likely, did a small group of very wealthy individuals give bribes to the politicians in charge of changing the tax codes in favor of corporate interests? Come on now, think long and hard on that one..
It's been explained to you 100 times but your brain is too meth-addled to understand.

America was the only country with factories left after WW2 so could afford to pay ridiculous wages for menial jobs.

With the rise of globalisation and free trade that is no longer possible because your companies have to compete with companies in countries with shitty labour laws and no copyright protections.

Your lefty skull blocks out all facts and logic that don't go along with your agenda.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
It's been explained to you 100 times but your brain is too meth-addled to understand.

America was the only country with factories left after WW2 so could afford to pay ridiculous wages for menial jobs.

With the rise of globalisation and free trade that is no longer possible because your companies have to compete with companies in countries with shitty labour laws and no copyright protections.

Your lefty skull blocks out all facts and logic that don't go along with your agenda.
That's a false narrative your side hopes to perpetuate by repeating it over and over, but these are the facts according to accepted world history:

"During this time (1945-1970) there was high worldwide economic growth; Western European and East Asian countries in particular experienced unusually high and sustained growth, together with full employment. Contrary to early predictions, this high growth also included many countries that had been devastated by the war, such as Greece (Greek economic miracle), West Germany (Wirtschaftswunder), France (Trente Glorieuses), Japan (Japanese post-war economic miracle), and Italy (Italian economic miracle).

Causes


Productivity: High productivity growth from before the war continued after the war and until the early 1970s. Manufacturing was aided by automation technologies such as feedback controllers, which appeared in the late 1930s were a fast-growing area of investment following the war. Wholesale and retail trade benefited from the new highway systems, distribution warehouses and material handling equipment such as forklifts. Oil displaced coal in many applications, particularly in locomotives and ships.

In agriculture, the post WW II period saw the widespread introduction of the following:

  • Chemical fertilizers
  • Tractors
  • Combine harvesters
  • High yield crop varieties of the Green revolution
  • Pesticides
  • New products and services
  • Industries that were created or greatly expanded during the post war period included television and commercial aviation.

Keynesian economics

Allied war bonds matured during these years, transferring cash from governments to private households.

The national debt of the United Kingdom was at a record high percentage of the GDP as the war ended, but was largely repaid by 1975.

Keynesian economists argue that the boom was caused by the adoption of Keynesian economic policies, particularly government spending ("fiscal stimulus").

Journalist Naomi Klein has argued the high growth enjoyed by Europe and America was delivered by Keynesian economic policies, and in the case of rapidly rising prosperity the golden age saw in parts of South America by the influence of developmentalist economics led by Raúl Prebisch.

This period also saw financial repression—low nominal interest rates and low or negative real interest rates (nominal rates lower than inflation plus taxation), via government policy—resulting respectively in debt servicing costs being low (low nominal rates) and in liquidation of existing debt (via inflation and taxation). This allowed countries (such as the US and UK) to both deal with their existing government debt level and reduce the level of debt without needing to direct a high portion of government spending to debt service.

Burton and Anita Folsom

Historical federal marginal tax rates for income for the lowest and highest income earners in the US.
In Burton Folsoms and Anita Folsoms book FDR goes to War, the Folsoms argue that Keynesian post-war plans were thwarted by the sudden death of President Roosevelt, the inexperience of the new president Harry Truman, and conservative control of Congress. When World War II ended Congress ended economic controls that were enacted prior to and during the Second World War (war economy) and cut tax rates. Folsoms argue that these ″libertarian policies″ made the economy grow faster in 1946 and 1947 than government experts had expected and stabilized unemployment at 3.9%.

Immediate post-war policy

Among the causes can be mentioned the rapid normalization of political relations between former Axis powers and the western Allies. After the war, the major powers were determined not to repeat the mistakes of the Great Depression, some of which were ascribed to post–World War I policy errors. The Marshall Plan for the rebuilding of Europe is most credited for reconciliation, though the immediate post-war situation was more complicated.

In 1948 the Marshall Plan pumped over $12 billion to rebuild and modernize Western Europe. The Coal and Steel Community formed the foundation of what was to become the European Union in later years.

Institutional factors

Institutional economists point to the international institutions established in the post-war period. Structurally, the victorious Allies established the Bretton Woods system, setting up international institutions designed to ensure stability in the world economy. This was achieved through a number of factors, including promoting free trade, instituting the Marshall Plan, and the use of Keynesian economics.

US Council of Economic Advisers

In the United States, Congress set the goal of achieving full employment as well as structuring, full production, and stable prices in the Employment Act of 1946. It also created the Council of Economic Advisers to provide objective economic analysis and advice on the development and implementation of a wide range of domestic and international economic policy issues. In its first 7 years the CEA made five technical advances in policy making:

  • The replacement of a "cyclical model" of the economy by a "growth model,"
  • The setting of quantitative targets for the economy,
  • Use of the theories of fiscal drag and full-employment budget,
  • Recognition of the need for greater flexibility in taxation, and
  • Replacement of the notion of unemployment as a structural problem by a realization of a low aggregate demand.

In 1949 a dispute broke out between chairman Edwin Nourse and member Leon Keyserling. Nourse believed a choice had to be made between "guns or butter" but Keyserling argued that an expanding economy permitted large defense expenditures without sacrificing an increased standard of living. In 1949 Keyserling gained support from powerful Truman advisers Dean Acheson and Clark Clifford. Nourse resigned as chairman, warning about the dangers of budget deficits and increased funding of "wasteful" defense costs. Keyserling succeeded to the chairmanship and influenced Truman's Fair Deal proposals and the economic sections of National Security Council Resolution 68 that, in April 1950, asserted that the larger armed forces America needed would not affect living standards or risk the "transformation of the free character of our economy."

During the 1953–54 recession, the CEA, headed by Arthur Burns deployed traditional Republican rhetoric. However it supported an activist contracyclical approach that helped to establish Keynesianism as a bipartisan economic policy for the nation.

Military spending

Another explanation for this period is the theory of the permanent war economy which suggests that the large spending on the military helped stabilize the global economy; this has also been referred to as "Military Keynesianism"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_economic_expansion


So, sorry to disappoint you, but you're spouting bullshit unsubstantiated by historical context
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
That's a false narrative your side hopes to perpetuate by repeating it over and over, but these are the facts according to accepted world history:

"During this time (1945-1970) there was high worldwide economic growth; Western European and East Asian countries in particular experienced unusually high and sustained growth, together with full employment. Contrary to early predictions, this high growth also included many countries that had been devastated by the war, such as Greece (Greek economic miracle), West Germany (Wirtschaftswunder), France (Trente Glorieuses), Japan (Japanese post-war economic miracle), and Italy (Italian economic miracle).

Causes


Productivity: High productivity growth from before the war continued after the war and until the early 1970s. Manufacturing was aided by automation technologies such as feedback controllers, which appeared in the late 1930s were a fast-growing area of investment following the war. Wholesale and retail trade benefited from the new highway systems, distribution warehouses and material handling equipment such as forklifts. Oil displaced coal in many applications, particularly in locomotives and ships.

In agriculture, the post WW II period saw the widespread introduction of the following:

  • Chemical fertilizers
  • Tractors
  • Combine harvesters
  • High yield crop varieties of the Green revolution
  • Pesticides
  • New products and services
  • Industries that were created or greatly expanded during the post war period included television and commercial aviation.

Keynesian economics

Allied war bonds matured during these years, transferring cash from governments to private households.

The national debt of the United Kingdom was at a record high percentage of the GDP as the war ended, but was largely repaid by 1975.

Keynesian economists argue that the boom was caused by the adoption of Keynesian economic policies, particularly government spending ("fiscal stimulus").

Journalist Naomi Klein has argued the high growth enjoyed by Europe and America was delivered by Keynesian economic policies, and in the case of rapidly rising prosperity the golden age saw in parts of South America by the influence of developmentalist economics led by Raúl Prebisch.

This period also saw financial repression—low nominal interest rates and low or negative real interest rates (nominal rates lower than inflation plus taxation), via government policy—resulting respectively in debt servicing costs being low (low nominal rates) and in liquidation of existing debt (via inflation and taxation). This allowed countries (such as the US and UK) to both deal with their existing government debt level and reduce the level of debt without needing to direct a high portion of government spending to debt service.

Burton and Anita Folsom

Historical federal marginal tax rates for income for the lowest and highest income earners in the US.
In Burton Folsoms and Anita Folsoms book FDR goes to War, the Folsoms argue that Keynesian post-war plans were thwarted by the sudden death of President Roosevelt, the inexperience of the new president Harry Truman, and conservative control of Congress. When World War II ended Congress ended economic controls that were enacted prior to and during the Second World War (war economy) and cut tax rates. Folsoms argue that these ″libertarian policies″ made the economy grow faster in 1946 and 1947 than government experts had expected and stabilized unemployment at 3.9%.

Immediate post-war policy

Among the causes can be mentioned the rapid normalization of political relations between former Axis powers and the western Allies. After the war, the major powers were determined not to repeat the mistakes of the Great Depression, some of which were ascribed to post–World War I policy errors. The Marshall Plan for the rebuilding of Europe is most credited for reconciliation, though the immediate post-war situation was more complicated.

In 1948 the Marshall Plan pumped over $12 billion to rebuild and modernize Western Europe. The Coal and Steel Community formed the foundation of what was to become the European Union in later years.

Institutional factors

Institutional economists point to the international institutions established in the post-war period. Structurally, the victorious Allies established the Bretton Woods system, setting up international institutions designed to ensure stability in the world economy. This was achieved through a number of factors, including promoting free trade, instituting the Marshall Plan, and the use of Keynesian economics.

US Council of Economic Advisers

In the United States, Congress set the goal of achieving full employment as well as structuring, full production, and stable prices in the Employment Act of 1946. It also created the Council of Economic Advisers to provide objective economic analysis and advice on the development and implementation of a wide range of domestic and international economic policy issues. In its first 7 years the CEA made five technical advances in policy making:

  • The replacement of a "cyclical model" of the economy by a "growth model,"
  • The setting of quantitative targets for the economy,
  • Use of the theories of fiscal drag and full-employment budget,
  • Recognition of the need for greater flexibility in taxation, and
  • Replacement of the notion of unemployment as a structural problem by a realization of a low aggregate demand.

In 1949 a dispute broke out between chairman Edwin Nourse and member Leon Keyserling. Nourse believed a choice had to be made between "guns or butter" but Keyserling argued that an expanding economy permitted large defense expenditures without sacrificing an increased standard of living. In 1949 Keyserling gained support from powerful Truman advisers Dean Acheson and Clark Clifford. Nourse resigned as chairman, warning about the dangers of budget deficits and increased funding of "wasteful" defense costs. Keyserling succeeded to the chairmanship and influenced Truman's Fair Deal proposals and the economic sections of National Security Council Resolution 68 that, in April 1950, asserted that the larger armed forces America needed would not affect living standards or risk the "transformation of the free character of our economy."

During the 1953–54 recession, the CEA, headed by Arthur Burns deployed traditional Republican rhetoric. However it supported an activist contracyclical approach that helped to establish Keynesianism as a bipartisan economic policy for the nation.

Military spending

Another explanation for this period is the theory of the permanent war economy which suggests that the large spending on the military helped stabilize the global economy; this has also been referred to as "Military Keynesianism"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post–World_War_II_economic_expansion


So, sorry to disappoint you, but you're spouting bullshit unsubstantiated by historical context
Lol, "growth" from close to zero is really not the smoking gun you're looking for.

Math example.

If I have $1 dollar and turn it into $4 dollars then I have higher growth than the guy who turned $1,000,000 into $2,000,000.

Again, you can't even understand basic concepts or are being willfully dishonest.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You must be a speed reader to read that entire post in under 5 minutes..
Lol, "growth" from close to zero is really not the smoking gun you're looking for.
"The Greek economic miracle is the period of sustained economic growth in Greece from 1950 to 1973. During this period, the Greek economy grew by an average of 7%, second in the world only to Japan."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_economic_miracle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The term About this sound Wirtschaftswunder (help·info) (German for "economic miracle" or "Miracle on the Rhine") describes the rapid reconstruction and development of the economies of West Germany and Austria after World War II (adopting an Ordoliberalism based social market economy). The expression referring to this phenomenon was first used by The Times in 1959.

Beginning with the replacement of the Reichsmark with the Deutsche Mark as legal tender (the Schilling was similarly established in Austria), a lasting period of low inflation and rapid industrial growth was overseen by the government led by West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and his Minister of Economics, Ludwig Erhard, who went down in history as the "father of the German economic miracle." In Austria, efficient labor practices led to a similar period of economic growth.

The era of economic growth raised West Germany and Austria from total wartime devastation to developed nations in modern Europe. At the founding of the European Common Market in 1957 West Germany's economic growth stood in contrast to the struggling conditions at the time in the United Kingdom."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Over this thirty-year period, France's economy grew rapidly like economies of other developed countries within the framework of the Marshall Plan such as West Germany, Italy and Japan. These decades of economic prosperity combined high productivity with high average wages and high consumption, and were also characterised by a highly developed system of social benefits. According to various studies, the real purchasing power of the average French worker’s salary went up by 170% between 1950 and 1975, while over-all private consumption increased by 174% in the period 1950-74. The French standard of living, which had been damaged by both World Wars, became one of the world's highest. The population also became far more urbanized; many rural départements experienced a population decline while the larger metropolitan areas grew considerably, especially that of Paris. Ownership of various household goods and amenities increased considerably, while the wages of the French working class rose significantly as the economy became more prosperous. As noted by the historians Jean Blondel and Donald Geoffrey Charlton in 1974,

"If it is still the case that France lags in the number of its telephones, working-class housing has improved beyond recognition and the various 'gadgets' of the consumer society – from television to motor cars – are now purchased by the working class on an even more avid basis than in other Western European countries"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trente_Glorieuses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Japanese post-war economic miracle is the name given to the historical phenomenon of Japan's record period of economic growth between post-World War II era to the end of Cold War. During the economic boom, Japan was catapulted into the world's second largest economy (after the United States) by the 1980s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_post-war_economic_miracle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Italian economic miracle (Italian: il miracolo economico) is the name often used by historians, economists and mass media to designate the prolonged period of sustained economic growth in Italy comprised between the end of the Second World War and late 1960s, and in particular the years 1950-63. This phase of Italian history represented not only a cornerstone in the economic and social development of the country, that was transformed from a poor, mainly rural nation into a major industrial power, but also a period of momentous change in society and culture. As summed up by one historian, by the end of the 1970s, “social security coverage had been made comprehensive and relatively generous. The material standard of living had vastly improved for the great majority of the population."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_economic_miracle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stay the fuck down unless you want some more
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Who else notices when the right argues their position, all they have is anecdotal evidence, when the left argues their position they post facts, charts, data, numbers..

I guess that's all that "soft science" those liberal college professors are teaching these days, eh?
 

althor

Well-Known Member
Who else notices when the right argues their position, all they have is anecdotal evidence, when the left argues their position they post facts, charts, data, numbers..

I guess that's all that "soft science" those liberal college professors are teaching these days, eh?
I see it from both sides, of course bias will blind people to seeing their side doing things.
 

althor

Well-Known Member
I must have missed it..

Could you quote 2 examples of objective data posted by someone on the right?
Nah, not worth my time. If I post it, you will tear it down. Same as how anything you post on a conservative site would get ripped apart and be not considered worthy, etc. So yeah just a big waste of time.
You are much too effected by bias. When you can step back and realize that there is no differences in politicians, things will become much clearer to you.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Nah, not worth my time. If I post it, you will tear it down. Same as how anything you post on a conservative site would get ripped apart and be not considered worthy, etc. So yeah just a big waste of time.
You are much too effected by bias. When you can step back and realize that there is no differences in politicians, things will become much clearer to you.
I will tear it down, because it wouldn't be objective, because no criticisms by the right are ever objective. If you noticed, I requested "facts, charts, numbers, graphs" (in other words, things I can check/measure). Why is it the right never supplies said requirements and instead relies on "he said, she said" anecdotal evidence to support their positions? That doesn't seem very objective to me..

Do you see the difference? I'm asking for the evidence that proves their position, they're condemning the evidence I provide to prove mine..

Weird..
 

althor

Well-Known Member
I will tear it down, because it wouldn't be objective, because no criticisms by the right are ever objective. If you noticed, I requested "facts, charts, numbers, graphs" (in other words, things I can check/measure). Why is it the right never supplies said requirements and instead relies on "he said, she said" anecdotal evidence to support their positions? That doesn't seem very objective to me..

Do you see the difference? I'm asking for the evidence that proves their position, they're condemning the evidence I provide to prove mine..

Weird..
You sound just like a Republican.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You sound just like a Republican.
Republicans don't ask for evidence proving their position wrong

The fact you, and anyone else, can't provide any without attacking my credibility or motives proves you're on shallow ground

Step your game up and come back with something worth responding to
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Who else notices when the right argues their position, all they have is anecdotal evidence, when the left argues their position they post facts, charts, data, numbers..

I guess that's all that "soft science" those liberal college professors are teaching these days, eh?
Lol, any retard with Excel can make a chart.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I post from a phone?

I'm not sad enough to sit in front of a computer all day posting here
I sit in front a computer all day and make money off the backs of conservatives like you for espousing such beliefs

You enter into my art in more ways than one! An endless supply of ideas you equal :D

How do you feel making me money? You, specifically? :D ($2K+)

Either way, you've, again, avoided the substance of my argument.. But I should tell you, your anecdotes don't convince anyone.. except my bank account!
 
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