White House Response to The New York Times Editorial Board's Call for Federal Marijuana Legalization

[canndo]

I sometimes think of AA and NA as a cult like atmosphere. For my brother it seems to work ok. But they would have you believe that people can't quit their drug of choice without following their program, and somehow if they could, they wouldn't truly be clean or sober despite being clean and sober.

But we're not discussing the merit of the 12 step programs.

We're discussing what the difference between addiction, physical dependence, and if weed has the ability to lead to either. And the reality is, it does, although in doing so it pales in comparison to other drugs.

Weed is addictive because some people display an inability to stop using it, despite an expressed wish to stop, and severe consequences for failing to do so. That does not mean any of you are weed addicts, although I'm sure some here would be.

Weed can create a chemical dependence. No where does it say that a person in withdrawal from weed need to be violently ill like a heroin withdrawal. No sir, difficulty in sleeping or irritability is enough. It is hard to argue that the brain does not become used to functioning with THC and the sudden lack of it changes something.

It is also possible to have addiction without dependence. They are related, but not the same thing.

What non addicts can't understand about addiction is the feeling of being compelled. Are you arguing that non addicts cannot observe and recognize this in others? We can, we just can't relate to it.

Even by their numbers, addiction from weed is exceedingly rare, but rare does not mean nonexistent.

Everyone who uses heroin for a month would be an addict, I presume. While only one in six long term weed smokers become addicted. It's probably lower. Therefore it is hard to put it in the same breath as heroin, meth or crack that would have addiction rates approaching 100%.

But just because the withdrawal is not highly visible, and the addiction rate is very low, does not mean it is non addictive and non dependency forming. In fact it means it is addictive and creates dependency.

Dependency is a poor word to choose. A heroin addict isn't truly dependent on heroin. They're just sick for a few days when they stop. They're not going to die. Their heart still beats. They just get the shits and leg cramps.

Weed smokers who quit after long use would probably chalk their difficulty in sleeping to nerves. It's withdrawal. Their ability to fall asleep easily has depended on their weed.

I think I recall addiction rates, heroin was one in four. Twenty five percent of those who try heroin become addicted . the percentage is higher for nicotine which is one of the mist addictive substances on earth. Of course the roa makes these numbers variable but if there is such a thing as addiction to pot, the incidence must be very low, far lower than coffee, far lower than any I can think of.

if one takes the term addiction at its most fanciful then indeed, pot can be "addicting". Given this, then it becomes a matter of how one manages ones addiction.

I hold that addiction is really a measured level of laziness. (you could call it motivated drug seeking behavior).

it could be argued that one who spends months and thousands on growing a few plants could be addicted to his result, but.. Craft brewers could be accused of the same thing.

I knew a man who, when told there was a single good hit of crack waiting for him some five miles away, discovered his car wouldn't start and peddled his bike there, for that what? 9 minute experience only to ride back.

addicted? I don't know.

every drug has a set of negatives and positives that each must balance. No psychoactive that I have encountered has the favorable profile of pot.

I know many who smoke compulsively, I really don't know if they are affected. All day, every day. But I have yet to see any of them affected for very long or very profoundly when they were without.

I did watch a friend reduced to eating a cigarette on a long plane flight.

and I knew three people who when confronted with the prospect of imminent death if they did not quit drinking, chose death rather than quit.

 

[Dr Kynes]

And the definition of addiction clearly shows that you can be addicted to cannabis.

no.

you can become HABITUATED to cannabis.

there is zero evidence of physiological dependence, thus no "addiction"

words have real meanings.

 

[Dr Kynes]

I think I recall addiction rates, heroin was one in four. Twenty five percent of those who try heroin become addicted . the percentage is higher for nicotine which is one of the mist addictive substances on earth. Of course the roa makes these numbers variable but if there is such a thing as addiction to pot, the incidence must be very low, far lower than coffee, far lower than any I can think of.

if one takes the term addiction at its most fanciful then indeed, pot can be "addicting". Given this, then it becomes a matter of how one manages ones addiction.

I hold that addiction is really a measured level of laziness. (you could call it motivated drug seeking behavior).

it could be argued that one who spends months and thousands on growing a few plants could be addicted to his result, but.. Craft brewers could be accused of the same thing.

I knew a man who, when told there was a single good hit of crack waiting for him some five miles away, discovered his car wouldn't start and peddled his bike there, for that what? 9 minute experience only to ride back.

addicted? I don't know.

every drug has a set of negatives and positives that each must balance. No psychoactive that I have encountered has the favorable profile of pot.

I know many who smoke compulsively, I really don't know if they are affected. All day, every day. But I have yet to see any of them affected for very long or very profoundly when they were without.

I did watch a friend reduced to eating a cigarette on a long plane flight.

and I knew three people who when confronted with the prospect of imminent death if they did not quit drinking, chose death rather than quit.

but did you ever suck a dick for marijuana?

the only people who suck cocks for marijuana were gonna suck those cocks anyway.

cocaine's a hell of a drug.

 

[tip top toker]

no.

you can become HABITUATED to cannabis.

there is zero evidence of physiological dependence, thus no "addiction"

words have real meanings.

Addiction does not have to be physiological Do some reading on the matter. As an example, just look at the number of actual experts, not keyboard warriors, who are of the belief that because the brain is part of the body, a psychological addiction IS a physiological addiction. But i'm sure you know far better than these experts.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Addiction does not have to be physiological Do some reading on the matter.

try reading the thread. thats what this whole argument has been about.
the REAL definition of addiction has already been presented, yet big n bushy keeps trying to redefine it so cannabis can be declared "addictive" when it clearly is NOT.

read the actual medical definition of addiction, not the fake one used by govt propagandists, psychologists and addiction treatment pimps , and you'll discover that cannabis simply does not qualify.

there is no physiological dependence, no physical withdrawl symptoms, and no medical basis for claiming pot is "addictive"

it is simply habit forming, like tapping your feet, cracking your knuckles or clicking your pen repeatedly.

 

[tip top toker]

The real definition... Yet for some reason expert after expert seems to disagree with this idea clearly there is no "real" definition then.

Here is an explanation of addiction, from my country's health body, I think I'll listen to them before I listen to you

Addiction is defined as not having control over doing, taking or using something, to the point where it could be harmful to you. Addiction is most commonly associated with gambling, drugs,alcohol and nicotine, but it's possible to be addicted to anything, such as: work, computers, shopping.

You keep harping your opinion, I'll stick to the medical professionals opinions

 

[SmokeyDan]

no.

you can become HABITUATED to cannabis.

there is zero evidence of physiological dependence, thus no "addiction"

words have real meanings.

Yes they do.

So explain the meaningful difference between habituated and addicted?

It sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

 

[IRON-EYES]

 

[Dr Kynes]

Yes they do.

So explain the meaningful difference between habituated and addicted?

It sounds like a distinction without a difference to me.

if you cant tell the difference between a substance that creates a PHYSICAL DEPENDENCE, a compulsion backed up by actual physiological symptoms sometimes even life threatening traumas and a harmless substance with no physical dependence that some weak minded fools allow to become a bad habit, then youre stupid.

example: sugar is not addictive (no matter how hard you try to reframe the argument to make it so) but some people abuse sugar to the extreme of tooth rot, diabetes, extreme obesity and serious life threatening illnesses, but if you simply stop using sugar, you will have NO withdrawal symptoms save those created by your own brain.

conversely, caffeine IS addictive, creating a real physical dependence, and when deprived of coffee you will experience real, actual physiological symptoms of withdrawal.

these two dependencies are not at all similar in their form or function. one is psychological, and while it's damage is real, the dependence exists solely in the mind of the user, the other is REAL addiction, and the withdrawal symptoms actually present themselves even under the use of placebo while psychosomatic symptoms can be cured by placebo quite handily.

sugar junkies who are presented with convincing enough sugar substitutes experience no withdrawal symptoms, while coffee addicts will get headaches, insomnia at night and drowsiness during the day, even if provided ample supplies of decaf.

reality vs fiction, if you cant tell the difference then you might want to lay off the LSD.

 

[SmokeyDan]

Heavy marijuana users get insomnia and experience mood fluctuations.

That's physical dependence by your own words.

By the way, you and those arguing your side of it have yet to provide anything but "I said so" while I have linked to two sources through the course of this discussion.

 

[IRON-EYES]

We argue pointlessly alot

indeed alot

. Yes quite pointlessly quite alot

 

[IRON-EYES]

 

[UncleBuck]

no.

you can become HABITUATED to cannabis.

there is zero evidence of physiological dependence, thus no "addiction"

words have real meanings.

wrong terminology. you're looking for substance abuse or dependence. addiction is not in the lexicon. alcoholism is a made up word not used by medical or mental health professionals.

medical and mental health professionals would categorize substance use along the lines of abuse and dependency. cannabis meets the criteria for either.

check the DSM.

 

[tip top toker]

what's the matter Doctor. Not got anything to say about experts contradicting your definition of addiction? Cat got your tongue?

 

[IRON-EYES]

I never touchd that fools tongue

 

[Dr Kynes]

what's the matter Doctor. Not got anything to say about experts contradicting your definition of addiction? Cat got your tongue?

you presented nothing new, just more Official Positions From Government Sources.

the actual medical definition of addiction has already been presented

ad·dic·tion
noun \ə-ˈdik-shən\
Definition of ADDICTION
: compulsive physiological need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be physically, psychologically, or socially harmful—compare habituation

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/addiction

note the emphasis on PHYSIOLOGICAL dependence and symptoms.

youre talking about habituation, which is different.

ha·bit·u·a·tion
noun \-ˌbich-ə-ˈwā-shən\
Definition of HABITUATION
1
: the act or process of making habitual or accustomed
2
a : tolerance to the effects of a drug acquired through continued use b : psychological dependence on a drug after a period of use—compare addiction
3
: a form of nonassociative learning characterized by a decrease in responsiveness upon repeated exposure to a stimulus—compare sensitization 3

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/habituation

one is physical, the other is psychological.

popular vernacular mashing them together doesnt make them the same.

having shit to do in my life, and thus not immediately responding to your claims does not indicate i agree with your assertion.

i have no particular responsibility to correct your misconceptions and educate you on the facts, i do it as a public service.

 

[UncleBuck]

you presented nothing new, just more Official Positions From Government Sources.

the actual medical definition of addiction has already been presented

ad·dic·tion
noun \ə-ˈdik-shən\
Definition of ADDICTION
: compulsive physiological need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be physically, psychologically, or socially harmful—compare habituation

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/addiction

note the emphasis on PHYSIOLOGICAL dependence and symptoms.

youre talking about habituation, which is different.

ha·bit·u·a·tion
noun \-ˌbich-ə-ˈwā-shən\
Definition of HABITUATION
1
: the act or process of making habitual or accustomed
2
a : tolerance to the effects of a drug acquired through continued use b : psychological dependence on a drug after a period of use—compare addiction
3
: a form of nonassociative learning characterized by a decrease in responsiveness upon repeated exposure to a stimulus—compare sensitization 3

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/habituation

one is physical, the other is psychological.

popular vernacular mashing them together doesnt make them the same.

having shit to do in my life, and thus not immediately responding to your claims does not indicate i agree with your assertion.

i have no particular responsibility to correct your misconceptions and educate you on the facts, i do it as a public service.

none of that is medical, those are dictionary definitions you fucking stooge.

you are no dr, you are a "dr".

if you had an actual doctorate like my wife does, you'd know to talk about abuse and dependency.

stooge.

 

[IRON-EYES]

Yes fight my prettys! FIGHT!!

 

[tip top toker]

So we have a dictionary stating one thing, and a fucking national health service stating another. I wonder who i would listen to for medical advice. Hmmm. Yup, i open a dictionary when i need medical advice.

And seeing as you've done so much medical research, you will also know that a habituation is by choice, but can turn into an addiction. Odd that everywhere other than your definition (which under broadly, also indicates it can be anything, not just physiological) is packed with actual doctors claiming otherwise.

 

[Harrekin]

none of that is medical, those are dictionary definitions you fucking stooge.

you are no dr, you are a "dr".

if you had an actual doctorate like my wife does, you'd know to talk about abuse and dependency.

stooge.

Doctorate?

I call bullshit.