• Here is a link to the full explanation: https://rollitup.org/t/welcome-back-did-you-try-turning-it-off-and-on-again.1104810/

White House Response to The New York Times Editorial Board's Call for Federal Marijuana Legalization

NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
SmokeyDan said:
You discount your own experience when you say you "WAS" an alcoholic.

My dear friend, you still are and will be until you die.

You seem to contemplate your alcoholism as the period in which you were drinking, and the few days thereafter when you experienced alcohol withdrawal, if it got that bad.

I'm happy for you if you're still sober.

If you read the big book you don't remember much of what it taught you.

For the umpteenth time, physical addiction is a misnomer and not at all indicative of what addiction is. What you call physical addiction is chemical dependence and i agree with you, it is borderline insignificant in marijuana.

But just because you don't get violently ill when you stop weed after extended heavy use has no bearing on addiction.
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LOL!!! I got past my 6th month coin by going to AA every day. I went to Alanon meetings with my sister. Well, I tried but I was an alcoholic so they didnt allow me to go even though it was support for my mother. They have some weird rules. AA didnt get me sober, deciding that I didnt want to destroy my physical health and that I wanted to live a healthy life made me decide to stop.

Are you an alcoholic? Have you ever experienced DT's?? You talk like you think you are an expert on the subject and then provide some first hand experience of a family member. LOL!!!

As for myself, maybe I never was an alcoholic... Maybe I just drank alot. Do you think that is possible?? Do you ever wonder why all the treatment clinics and AA meetings tell you that you are never cured. Do you ever consider that it might be linked to all the cash they rake in at the expense of the addict? Maybe it is all one fucking lie based on a pity party for a bunch of drunks...

The big book is bullshit. You can go to those meetings (well, you cant unless you are actually an alcoholic, but I have a lifetime pass :P). What you will find is people who are desperately clinging to the idea that something outside themselves can save them. Poor bastards that have been in there for 20 years but still talk about wanting to hit the bottle. Newsflash!! God doesnt care whether you are a drunk or not...

You dont know shit about addiction. You read a few books about it and have a family member that is an addict, LOL!!! Try living it and then come talk to me.

Almost all addicts are addicts because they are running away from reality. The funny thing is that there are acceptable and unacceptable ways of running away from reality and the things that feel the best in the moment are the ones that are the most unacceptable/illegal. You can thank your power and control government for that bullshit. The problem isnt the addiction it is typically the underlying reason for the addiction, the reason that the person wants to escape reality.

To become healthy, to become cured the person needs to figure out what pain they are trying to escape from and learn to eliminate or deal with it. Once that happens then the addiction can naturally go away without any after effects. Confronting reality is painful and addicts are experts at avoiding pain so it is a continuing circle. The addiction continues, or it kills the addict or the addict confronts reality and deals with it.

The books you read and the AA groups and the workshops and all the other bullshit do nothing to solve the problem because they make money off of the problem. Solving it would cause them to lose income and who would be insane enough to do that??

Once you figure out the enormous lies that society tells you everything becomes much more transparent. Look at our culture, it promotes addiction and dependence to alcohol. What do you do to celebrate anything?? What is the most prevalent item at any party?? Why are there so many bars around?? Money money money... Once they get too much money and you become a problem there is rehab and AA and counseling and books to buy and more fucking money to spend on it all... Round and round we goooo!!

I faced my demons and defeated them. After that I did not need to try to escape reality anymore. When I go shopping I dont even notice the alcohol aisles. Beers have sat in my fridge untouched for months. I have a bottle of some fancy liquer given to me like 2 years ago as a Christmas gift still untouched somewhere in the kitchen. You know why? Because the reality is that I can have just as good a time doing everything I did before but simply without alcohol. I can go to a bar with people who are drinking and not feel the need to join in. I can have a great steak with a soda at lunch and it is as good as if it was a beer.

As far as my sobriety it is like 8 years or so. I dont really know how long cause I dont fucking care. I dont need a coin to remind me of the crappy side of alcohol.

So, feel free to call me an alcoholic and chant that continual bullshit about how once an alcoholic always an alcoholic and I will laugh and point to the fact that about 5% of people quit their addictions whether they are going to a treatment center, AA or not and none of the institutionalized bullshit seems to have one tiny bit of an effect on the overall percentage of people that are cured. Do you find that a bit interesting??

That being said, I am not out to bash AA if it works for some people. I just realized that God was not going to take care of my life, that was my problem.

None of that is to the point that you are now trying to clump all addiction together to try to muddle the conversation between physical and psychological addiction. It isnt all in addicts heads.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
I prefer a much simpler system. A 10-20% flat sales tax across the board on all products. The congress would only have the ability to lower the tax on items, not raise it. So if they wanted basic food items and medical care to be tax free they could do that.

It is much more *fair* than the current system, it does not require you to file ANY paperwork nor justify your income to the government.

Poor people use more of the government resources than rich people do so it is better than a regressive tax system.

If you really want to change it, really change it, dont just fiddle with the knobs.
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What we're talking about is certainly change, make no mistake. It seems our main point of debate merely lies with where to set the knob in question.

Those who detect a whiff of irony likely have a keen sense of wit- and history.
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
I sometimes think of AA and NA as a cult like atmosphere. For my brother it seems to work ok. But they would have you believe that people can't quit their drug of choice without following their program, and somehow if they could, they wouldn't truly be clean or sober despite being clean and sober.

But we're not discussing the merit of the 12 step programs.

We're discussing what the difference between addiction, physical dependence, and if weed has the ability to lead to either. And the reality is, it does, although in doing so it pales in comparison to other drugs.

Weed is addictive because some people display an inability to stop using it, despite an expressed wish to stop, and severe consequences for failing to do so. That does not mean any of you are weed addicts, although I'm sure some here would be.

Weed can create a chemical dependence. No where does it say that a person in withdrawal from weed need to be violently ill like a heroin withdrawal. No sir, difficulty in sleeping or irritability is enough. It is hard to argue that the brain does not become used to functioning with THC and the sudden lack of it changes something.

It is also possible to have addiction without dependence. They are related, but not the same thing.

What non addicts can't understand about addiction is the feeling of being compelled. Are you arguing that non addicts cannot observe and recognize this in others? We can, we just can't relate to it.

Even by their numbers, addiction from weed is exceedingly rare, but rare does not mean nonexistent.

Everyone who uses heroin for a month would be an addict, I presume. While only one in six long term weed smokers become addicted. It's probably lower. Therefore it is hard to put it in the same breath as heroin, meth or crack that would have addiction rates approaching 100%.

But just because the withdrawal is not highly visible, and the addiction rate is very low, does not mean it is non addictive and non dependency forming. In fact it means it is addictive and creates dependency.

Dependency is a poor word to choose. A heroin addict isn't truly dependent on heroin. They're just sick for a few days when they stop. They're not going to die. Their heart still beats. They just get the shits and leg cramps.

Weed smokers who quit after long use would probably chalk their difficulty in sleeping to nerves. It's withdrawal. Their ability to fall asleep easily has depended on their weed.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
"We're discussing what the difference between addiction, physical dependence, and if weed has the ability to lead to either. And the reality is, it does, although in doing so it pales in comparison to other drugs."

This ladies and gentlemen is what is called *moving the goal post*

We were discussing the difference between physical and psychological dependence and the fact that weed is NOT physically addictive.

No worries Smokey, everybody does it ;]
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
"Weed can create a chemical dependence. No where does it say that a person in withdrawal from weed need to be violently ill like a heroin withdrawal. No sir, difficulty in sleeping or irritability is enough. It is hard to argue that the brain does not become used to functioning with THC and the sudden lack of it changes something. "


The scientific test for whether something is physically addictive is if the body has a physical reaction to not having it.

*another example of moving the goal post* If it FEELS addictive then it must BE addictive. Wrong, negative, bzzt...
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
I don't think I am moving anything. The truth is that I have been having this discussion with several individuals, it's difficult to keep a lot of the who said what straight.

Heroin... you'd call it physical addiction that if the heroin addict wakes up vomiting, has the shits and all that and will do so for days until they get a fix a sign of their physical addiction.

Truth is their bodies systems have become dependent on it to function normally. We have opiates receptors in our gut. Thus the stomach problems.

Marijuana doesn't do the same. But it does make a chronic user grumpy when they don't have it. And they won't sleep well for several days without it.

I'll give you that these are mild symptoms by comparison.

But their sleep patterns have become dependent on marijuana to sleep normally. And their normal brain chemistry is upset so they are grumpy.

Seems like some of the body's systems have become dependent on weed for normal function to me.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
SmokeyDan said:
I don't think I am moving anything. The truth is that I have been having this discussion with several individuals, it's difficult to keep a lot of the who said what straight.

Heroin... you'd call it physical addiction that if the heroin addict wakes up vomiting, has the shits and all that and will do so for days until they get a fix a sign of their physical addiction.

Truth is their bodies systems have become dependent on it to function normally. We have opiates receptors in our gut. Thus the stomach problems.

Marijuana doesn't do the same. But it does make a chronic user grumpy when they don't have it. And they won't sleep well for several days without it.

I'll give you that these are mild symptoms by comparison.

But their sleep patterns have become dependent on marijuana to sleep normally. And their normal brain chemistry is upset so they are grumpy.

Seems like some of the body's systems have become dependent on weed for normal function to me.
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Attempting to lump physical dependence with someone feeling *grumpy* is moving the goalposts and/or still arguing the same point.

Apparently you are not going to try to learn anything from this thread and are going to continue to repeat what you believe to be true even though you have never been an addict.

I can tell you that the shakes and the sweating and the nausea and the vomiting were not in my head when I suffered from alcohol withdrawal. Feeling anxious because my dealer could not score me any weed is not the same thing.

You havent said what your brother is addicted to or I missed it...
 
SmokeyDan

SmokeyDan

Well-Known Member
NLXSK1 said:
Attempting to lump physical dependence with someone feeling *grumpy* is moving the goalposts and/or still arguing the same point.

Apparently you are not going to try to learn anything from this thread and are going to continue to repeat what you believe to be true even though you have never been an addict.

I can tell you that the shakes and the sweating and the nausea and the vomiting were not in my head when I suffered from alcohol withdrawal. Feeling anxious because my dealer could not score me any weed is not the same thing.

You havent said what your brother is addicted to or I missed it...
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Ok, no one is saying that those are in your head. Those are the result of physical dependence, which is physical.

Rehab provides a cure to physical dependence. After your 28 days you feel great again.

Yet over half are back on their substance within days of returning home. There are no physical symptoms driving you to use after 28 days in rehab. It is all between your ears at that point and this is addiction.

My brother does anything, but he snorts the fuck out of roxies. It's a pain pill.

I talk to him about it. He still has intense cravings sometimes. After six months. This is called PAWS, post acute withdrawal syndrome. These feelings last from 18 to 24 months before they start to fade, and they're never gone forever.

If addiction was over when the feeling bad stopped, success rates among addicts would be much higher.

You can have withdrawal without being an addict, and you can be an addict and never use enough to become physically dependent.

At this point I'm not arguing with you to change your mind. I'm trying to get you to understand this counter intuitive relationship between the two. You don't seem to understand it.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
lemme guess, a psychology major.

no wonder you have such idiotic ideas.

ask a physician if "weed addiction" is an addiction or a habiutation and youll learn some facts.
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wrong terms. you're looking for substance abuse or substance dependence, and weed can qualify you for either.
 
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