Who thinks they are NOT a slave....think again...you are

[Doer]

Well, I said before.

We can't count voters and we can't count votes. That is the real sham and shame of it all. Or is it?

Here is how I look at it. What is the difference if everyone could vote as many times as they wanted? Probably none at the President level. Too many people cancelling each other.

So, we forget, this President election is the result of hard work, down in every little county, town and district for 4 years minimum. There it does matter, about one person one vote. Not enough people. One crazy group can swamp the vote.

Nationally the other crazy group could cancel but not county by county.

The point? None. It is as good as it can be, I think. SNAFU.

 

[BigNBushy]

When you get cancer or chronic heart disease you will pretty much figure that the 130 bucks was pretty well spent, which costs more? a $280,000 heart operation or your $130 bucks a month?

How many many months do I get to get past $0 that will be charged to me? Stuff is much cheaper when you don't have health insurance. I went to the er one time, ended up getting a bill for over $20k. A week later, I got a bill stating that they decided to write it all off since I didn't have insurance. I know another guy who had awesome insurance, and racked up about $10k in hospital bills. They sent him a bill for what the hospital didn't pay, and required him to pay it. About $1500, plus his monthly premiums.

So to an uninsured person, likely that $280k heart operation is cheaper than the $130 a month.

 

[Doer]

How many many months do I get to get past $0 that will be charged to me? Stuff is much cheaper when you don't have health insurance. I went to the er one time, ended up getting a bill for over $20k. A week later, I got a bill stating that they decided to write it all off since I didn't have insurance. I know another guy who had awesome insurance, and racked up about $10k in hospital bills. They sent him a bill for what the hospital didn't pay, and required him to pay it. About $1500, plus his monthly premiums.

So to an uninsured person, likely that $280k heart operation is cheaper than the $130 a month.

Not for the rest of us, it is not, and that is the very point. By the time everyone has ripped off the present system, (and cheering them on) it is already ruined.

Guess what? It is already ruined. And the payer of last resort in our Forgive and Forget system is WE the People. So, who ruined it? Not the govt.

WE ruined it just as you described. Shameful, is all. Yeah, these, rip us off, people, un-insured or marginally insured, by chance or by choice, doctors, scammers and patients, ruined it for the rest of us. And let us throw in the rip off Hospitals, Med device Mfgs, and the Insurance....all an American rip off of our own damn selves.

And in America one thing is true. It is the very artifact of self rule. Rip off goes on, as long as most people are not hurt. We track perps down for punishment.

But true, is this. When WE begin to scam US all, WE wake up. It is like waking up, breaking your own fingers. Don't break your own fingers.

This had to happen and it is so big, I am suprised that it happened at all.

So, I am not surprised at how ACA happened. Self rule happened. We elect the assholes for it. Did you think this would be able go along any farther?

I don't. WE only change things when we absolutely have to. So, it is always a mess in Self Rule....it is OUR mess, however. Better than nothing.

 

[schuylaar]

Not for the rest of us, it is not, and that is the very point. By the time everyone has ripped off the present system, (and cheering them on) it is already ruined.

Guess what? It is already ruined. And the payer of last resort in our Forgive and Forget system is WE the People. So, who ruined it? Not the govt.

WE ruined it just as you described. Shameful, is all. Yeah, these, rip us off, people, un-insured or marginally insured, by chance or by choice, doctors, scammers and patients, ruined it for the rest of us. And let us throw in the rip off Hospitals, Med device Mfgs, and the Insurance....all an American rip off of our own damn selves.

And in America one thing is true. It is the very artifact of self rule. Rip off goes on, as long as most people are not hurt. We track perps down for punishment.

But true, is this. When WE begin to scam US all, WE wake up. It is like waking up, breaking your own fingers. Don't break your own fingers.

This had to happen and it is so big, I am suprised that it happened at all.

So, I am not surprised at how ACA happened. Self rule happened. We elect the assholes for it. Did you think this would be able go along any farther?

I don't. WE only change things when we absolutely have to. So, it is always a mess in Self Rule....it is OUR mess, however. Better than nothing.

case in point: colo

think about it.

 

[beenthere]

Guess what? It is already ruined. And the payer of last resort in our Forgive and Forget system is WE the People. So, who ruined it? Not the govt.

While I agree with just about everything you've mentioned, I find it hard to believe that you give government a full pass on this.

Who is it that negotiates the low reimbursement rates of Medicaid and Medicare?
This is one of the reasons our healthcare costs are so high, the doctors and hospitals have to offset these low paying reimbursements by charging us more.

And what about our government intentionally not addressing tort reform, there is no argument that $multimillion lawsuits and the high cost of medial malpractice insurance doctors have to pay, do in fact, increase our healthcare costs.

And lets not leave out the FDA and their slow as a snail approval process of drugs and procedures that have kept millions of cancer and diabetes patients without access to promising treatments, treatments that are readily available in other industrialized countries, the left likes to use these countries as an example when they're lobbying for single payer, but it stops there.

Again, I agree that societies greed is partial blame for our sky rocketing healthcare costs, but we can't give government a full pass, they have a big hand in the problem themselves.

 

[canndo]

How many many months do I get to get past $0 that will be charged to me? Stuff is much cheaper when you don't have health insurance. I went to the er one time, ended up getting a bill for over $20k. A week later, I got a bill stating that they decided to write it all off since I didn't have insurance. I know another guy who had awesome insurance, and racked up about $10k in hospital bills. They sent him a bill for what the hospital didn't pay, and required him to pay it. About $1500, plus his monthly premiums.

So to an uninsured person, likely that $280k heart operation is cheaper than the $130 a month.

Who do you think paid for your "writeoff"? I se you have a grand total of two "examples", neither one is actually cheaper anyway. You are talking about minor proceedures and not the use of a series of machines, highly skilled doctors and nurses, after care and possibly weeks in the hospital.

So, you don't like my numbers? how about a $500,000 dollar heart transplant? ongoing oncology treatments where the medicine costs $1400 a month and you don't get it unless someone is paying. Seems like you really havn't seen much of the the sad side of the world.


Oh, and I am still waiting on your answer as to how you would "parent", seeing as how I am such a bad one, you might give me some pointers.

I noticed you sort of crept out of that thread.

 

[UncleBuck]

I went to the er one time, ended up getting a bill for over $20k. A week later, I got a bill stating that they decided to write it all off since I didn't have insurance.

that just means everyone else paid for your bill, just like the rest of us had to pay for your theft from walmart and your food stamps and Dog knows what else.

 

[schuylaar]

Who do you think paid for your "writeoff"? I se you have a grand total of two "examples", neither one is actually cheaper anyway. You are talking about minor proceedures and not the use of a series of machines, highly skilled doctors and nurses, after care and possibly weeks in the hospital.

So, you don't like my numbers? how about a $500,000 dollar heart transplant? ongoing oncology treatments where the medicine costs $1400 a month and you don't get it unless someone is paying. Seems like you really havn't seen much of the the sad side of the world.


Oh, and I am still waiting on your answer as to how you would "parent", seeing as how I am such a bad one, you might give me some pointers.

I noticed you sort of crept out of that thread.

just like the righties always do when they run out of fox talking points and skewed polls..

skewed polls..

skewed polls..

skewed polls..

 

[canndo]

While I agree with just about everything you've mentioned, I find it hard to believe that you give government a full pass on this.

Who is it that negotiates the low reimbursement rates of Medicaid and Medicare?
This is one of the reasons our healthcare costs are so high, the doctors and hospitals have to offset these low paying reimbursements by charging us more.

And what about our government intentionally not addressing tort reform, there is no argument that $multimillion lawsuits and the high cost of medial malpractice insurance doctors have to pay, do in fact, increase our healthcare costs.

And lets not leave out the FDA and their slow as a snail approval process of drugs and procedures that have kept millions of cancer and diabetes patients without access to promising treatments, treatments that are readily available in other industrialized countries, the left likes to use these countries as an example when they're lobbying for single payer, but it stops there.

Again, I agree that societies greed is partial blame for our sky rocketing healthcare costs, but we can't give government a full pass, they have a big hand in the problem themselves.

What IS it with you people and your alternate universe and unending lies? Premiums have not gone down in California after Tort reform, the huge settlements you see in the paper are seldom awarded and the malpractice insuance companies are doing well, so well that they want more - by raising their premiums. What you are talking about is a drop in the bucket. A few hundred million a year vs tens of billions. But still you persist in these blatant mistruths.

I have shown this to you time and time again, but it doesn't stick because it doesn't fit your world view.

 

[ChesusRice]

How many many months do I get to get past $0 that will be charged to me? Stuff is much cheaper when you don't have health insurance. I went to the er one time, ended up getting a bill for over $20k. A week later, I got a bill stating that they decided to write it all off since I didn't have insurance. I know another guy who had awesome insurance, and racked up about $10k in hospital bills. They sent him a bill for what the hospital didn't pay, and required him to pay it. About $1500, plus his monthly premiums.

So to an uninsured person, likely that $280k heart operation is cheaper than the $130 a month.

And when you are unisured and it is time for your follow up visits.
They dont have to see you for free.
So guess where you eventually end up back at?
The emergency room.

 

[ChesusRice]

Who do you think paid for your "writeoff"? I se you have a grand total of two "examples", neither one is actually cheaper anyway. You are talking about minor proceedures and not the use of a series of machines, highly skilled doctors and nurses, after care and possibly weeks in the hospital.

So, you don't like my numbers? how about a $500,000 dollar heart transplant? ongoing oncology treatments where the medicine costs $1400 a month and you don't get it unless someone is paying. Seems like you really havn't seen much of the the sad side of the world.


Oh, and I am still waiting on your answer as to how you would "parent", seeing as how I am such a bad one, you might give me some pointers.

I noticed you sort of crept out of that thread.

Chemo is more than 1400 a month
WITH
Insurance

 

[Rob Roy]

The quadrant system is deeply flawed. So in Rob Roy's voluntaryist world, where corporations run everything and democratic government doesn't exist, where in that cluster fuck do you find an anarchist idea? Other than distaste for government. He is replacing one hierarchy with another. There is nothing Anarchist about it.

In my "world" corporations would not exist as they do now. They only exist now as a result of coercive government* providing a shield for people they deem privileged.

The non aggression principle (you should check that out) is the foundation of my beliefs. So, no, I am not advocating replacing one hierarchy with another. I am advocating individuals have the right to associate with people that they want to associate with and that want to associate with them. Also that people have the right to disassociate from people they wish not to associate with. Governments and people that act differently are at their foundation deviating from anything resembling freedom, in spite of what they may say.

I believe human interactions should be conducted on a bi-lateral basis, rather than the uni-lateral model used presently by governments that grant themselves dominion over their subjects.

It's interesting that some people confuse a "free market" with the present unfree crony capitalist markets that exist today. In my "world" corporations would likely not run everything, so I think you drew an inference that wasn't there...

 

[Rob Roy]

loaded question with false presupposition, i reject the question entirely.

you are a slave when someone owns you as their property and you are not given the rights of a human being. such practices have been outlawed in this country.




even if that is true, and it is often not, taxation in this nation is not comparable to slavery in any way.



being intimidated and being enslaved are not the same.




anyone in our country can own property.




a slave is owned as property by someone. that practice is illegal in our country.




"the state" in our nation is a constitutional republic which forbids slavery as per the constitution.

we are "subject to the will" of our democratically elected representatives, who must abide by the dictates of our constitutional republic.

our democratically elected representatives are "subject to the will" of the people. we are our own masters within the confines of the constitution.

yawn.

refuting lysander spooner bores me in its simplicity.




yawn.

no one is allowed to be owned by another person as property. america is great in that way. no slavery.

double yawn.

You dance rather clumsily when the music gets hotter.

If a person or a person acting on behalf of an organization takes SOME of what you own, but not ALL of what you own without your permission, were you robbed? Yes you were.

So which percent of your stuff needs to be taken against your will before you have been robbed Mr. Clubfoot?

 

[Rob Roy]

It doesnt prevent them, it prevents them from continuing.

I cannot understand how you dont see things deteriorating from where they are now to something much worse if there were no authorities to stop criminal behavior or at least arrest criminals after the behavior.

I guess when you are free you just shrug your shoulders if your wife is raped and murdered because everyone is free to do whatever they want...

If the agency responsible for preventing coercion uses coercion as the cornerstone of the organization....then what?

I am not advocating everyone do ANYTHING they want to do. I am advocating EVERYONE can do anything they want to as long as it doesn't involve being the initiator of aggression upon others. There is a significant difference between what you said and what I just said. So if you understand my previous point, the question seems to be one of, "how will disputes be fairly arbitrated" ?

Note - I do not oppose the use of defensive force, nor do the tenets of the non aggression principle deny self defense.

 

[Rob Roy]

i can tell ya what doesn't happen: my wife is not raped and my daughter is not sold away from me at age eight while i am forced to work for free all my life and whipped if i dare to exercise free will.

you need some perspective, ya whiny little bitch.

People have lost their homes thru confiscation because they refused to pay for their kid or other kids to be "educated" in a system that they don't approve of. If you think you own your body, explain how over 23 million Americans have been and continue to be arrested for possessing plant matter.

Also, you should really study up the American Public School system, you might learn something about the purpose and origin of it. That Prussian School system has dumbed down smarter people than you, so there's no shame for you to learn about it....slave.

 

[Rob Roy]

what system?

the only "system" that governs my life is the constitution of the united states. it outlaws slavery.

it may not be everything i ever dreamed for, but it's pretty damn good.

Isn't it "unconstitutional" for one person or group of people to tell others what they can ingest? How does the constitution protect you from being made to pay for things you don't use and don't want ?

 

[Rob Roy]

My employer doesnt own me.
I own him. If i up and quit right now. The company would be screwed.
They pay me appropriatly.
One thing my employer does own though

My Loyalty.

You're finally correct. You are owned by your government. Go ahead sip some raw milk and spark up a joint and think about that one...slave.

 

[NLXSK1]

In my "world" corporations would not exist as they do now. They only exist now as a result of coercive government* providing a shield for people they deem privileged.

The non aggression principle (you should check that out) is the foundation of my beliefs. So, no, I am not advocating replacing one hierarchy with another. I am advocating individuals have the right to associate with people that they want to associate with and that want to associate with them. Also that people have the right to disassociate from people they wish not to associate with. Governments and people that act differently are at their foundation deviating from anything resembling freedom, in spite of what they may say.

I believe human interactions should be conducted on a bi-lateral basis, rather than the uni-lateral model used presently by governments that grant themselves dominion over their subjects.

It's interesting that some people confuse a "free market" with the present unfree crony capitalist markets that exist today. In my "world" corporations would likely not run everything, so I think you drew an inference that wasn't there...

Taking the historical example of the vikings who would sail across the seas and go on raiding missions, could you explain the protection mechanism afforded by your societal organization? How are you going to bi-laterally do anything when they are bent on unilaterally raping you and killing your wife?

 

[skunkd0c]

It does seem that the government have a vested interest in every person since each person can potentially pay tax and get in debt and pay interest
anything that would prevent a person from being an efficient worker should perhaps be outlawed

in the future when technology is clever enough so that robots can work in KFC and such .. will the people still be slaves ?
what new ways will the government find to exploit everyone lol

 

[Doer]

In the future will the robots get stoned?

Will the robots let us get stoned?