Why America Must Prosecute War Crimes

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah ... you slammed cjass good ... :clap: ... of course he disregards the obvious like any good bushwhacked parrot ... :roll:
another good post ... thanks ... :hug:
lol i do what i can * high 5 * :hump:

but yah, screw g.w.... how/why people support him idk :confused:
 

CrackerJax

New Member
It's not about any one political figure. i don't fall into those traps...like you do. It's about keeping America safe. Giving away techniques and slinging careers through the mud on political witch hunts does neither. At some point you need to grow up.
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
It's not about any one political figure. i don't fall into those traps...like you do. It's about keeping America safe. Giving away techniques and slinging careers through the mud on political witch hunts does neither. At some point you need to grow up.

are you still debating torture man ? serioiusly ?

and.. are you telling me i fall into political figure traps ? if, so.. u can not be any further away from the truth

need to grow up?.. what a "childish" insult
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Yes I am still arguing torture. First of all...it WORKS. When ALL of the memos are released that much will be CLEAR.
Secondly, I have NO LIMITATIONS problem with keeping America safe, you do. I err on the side of America, you do NOT.

Yes, you need to grow up.
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
Yes I am still arguing torture. First of all...it WORKS. When ALL of the memos are released that much will be CLEAR.
Secondly, I have NO LIMITATIONS problem with keeping America safe, you do. I err on the side of America, you do NOT.

Yes, you need to grow up.
again with the insults... can we not just have a debate? :confused: com'on now.

I guess since i side with the constitution, i'm an idiot and need to grow up. but i disagree that it works. When you're getting tortured, you will say ANYTHING to stop the pain. including.. LIE.
Studies show it does't work man.

here's just 2 articles. i could go on.

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/10/fbi-interrogator-tor.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Growing up is your goal...it's not an insult. As I said IF ALL the memos are released, it will become quite clear that ALOT of valid info was obtained.

BS that torture doesn't work...total BS. If that were true, mankind would have given up on it LONG ago...and yet...it is EVERYWHERE. Like I said, time to grow up and see the world as it is, not as you wish it to be. Nice and clean and everyone rowing together...it just doesn't work that way. You have Iran executing juveniles which is TOTALLY against International law. Where's your trials? You have slavery all over Africa..... where's your trials?

I'll repeat myself, which I don't do often... Are you going to put Nancy Pelosi on trial????


Everyone agreed at the time it was necessary..... get some principles man.
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
Growing up is your goal...it's not an insult. As I said IF ALL the memos are released, it will become quite clear that ALOT of valid info was obtained.

BS that torture doesn't work...total BS. If that were true, mankind would have given up on it LONG ago...and yet...it is EVERYWHERE. Like I said, time to grow up and see the world as it is, not as you wish it to be. Nice and clean and everyone rowing together...it just doesn't work that way. You have Iran executing juveniles which is TOTALLY against International law. Where's your trials? You have slavery all over Africa..... where's your trials?

I'll repeat myself, which I don't do often... Are you going to put Nancy Pelosi on trial????


Everyone agreed at the time it was necessary..... get some principles man.
ok, i will give you one thing... torture does work to an extent. sometimes you get true info... sometimes you get false info. i'm saying.. whatever someone has to do to get out of a bad situatation... they're going to do it. and JUST because people have been doing something for thousads of years...does'nt mean it's correct. Religion is RIDICULOUS... yet.. people still do it. quit being a pussy ass bitch. "terrorists are after me, help me, help me". fuck that shit... grow some balls bro.

oh.. and about good ole Nancy... i would not put just her, i would put the entire bush admin on trial. but you know what? it's just a dream... it wont happen becuz shits corrupt.

To africa:... fuck africa. idc about africa. i live in AMERICA. screw international law. I don't like america(/UN *chuckles*)being a policeman for the entire world.

I'll repeat myself, which I don't do often... IT'S AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION.

^ That's one thing you CAN'T argue with. it shouldn't be done...plain and simple. i don't care what other countries do. I DONT LIVE THERE. This is America... let's not lower ourselves to the level of Iran and China. We're better than that. You should feel unamerican to be against the Constitituion.

oh.. and forgot about the "memos" thats laughable man. you're whole argument is on a "hunch".

Do you feel safer with torture going on? how about them tapping your phone lines? How about them looking at your email? How about setting up checkpoints?
feel safe let ? or do you want more rights taken away ?

Quit being a pussy!

i need a cigarette...:joint:
 

NorthwestBuds

Well-Known Member
Growing up is your goal...it's not an insult. As I said IF ALL the memos are released, it will become quite clear that ALOT of valid info was obtained.

BS that torture doesn't work...total BS. If that were true, mankind would have given up on it LONG ago...and yet...it is EVERYWHERE. Like I said, time to grow up and see the world as it is, not as you wish it to be. Nice and clean and everyone rowing together...it just doesn't work that way. You have Iran executing juveniles which is TOTALLY against International law. Where's your trials? You have slavery all over Africa..... where's your trials?

I'll repeat myself, which I don't do often... Are you going to put Nancy Pelosi on trial????


Everyone agreed at the time it was necessary..... get some principles man.
Men of Strength and Honor DO NOT need to torture Prisoners of War. That is a crude, ignorant, intelligence gathering technique. Considering the USA's un-matched military might it is ridiculous to depend on such barbaric methods.
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
Growing up is your goal...it's not an insult. As I said IF ALL the memos are released, it will become quite clear that ALOT of valid info was obtained.

BS that torture doesn't work...total BS. If that were true, mankind would have given up on it LONG ago...and yet...it is EVERYWHERE.
 
Cracker, explain to me how exactly torture works.

Here's a scenario;

I have you chained down to a table, I'm asking you questions you have nothing to do with... things like "where's the girl?!"... you think to yourself ''wtf is he talking about, what girl?!''... what exactly is it that's stopping you from telling me any random thing about any random girl you just made up on the spot, and what magic gift do I have where I know if you're telling me the truth or not?

See how that works... that's why torture doesn't work. The information obtained through torture is unreliable at best and dangerous at worst. What's to stop a terrorist from telling an interrogator that there's some American hostages at some location, then that guy tells some commander and they set up a whole mission around that intel, then it turns out that it's not American hostages, it's an AQ training camp or some other enemy stronghold, American soldiers get killed, all because of that one guys intel...
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
 
Cracker, explain to me how exactly torture works.

Here's a scenario;

I have you chained down to a table, I'm asking you questions you have nothing to do with... things like "where's the girl?!"... you think to yourself ''wtf is he talking about, what girl?!''... what exactly is it that's stopping you from telling me any random thing about any random girl you just made up on the spot, and what magic gift do I have where I know if you're telling me the truth or not?

See how that works... that's why torture doesn't work. The information obtained through torture is unreliable at best and dangerous at worst. What's to stop a terrorist from telling an interrogator that there's some American hostages at some location, then that guy tells some commander and they set up a whole mission around that intel, then it turns out that it's not American hostages, it's an AQ training camp or some other enemy stronghold, American soldiers get killed, all because of that one guys intel...
exactly... they'll do anything to get away from that situation. it's just human instinct. great example Bater
 

Antidisestablishmentarian

Well-Known Member
  Cracker, explain to me how exactly torture works. Here's a scenario; I have you chained down to a table, I'm asking you questions you have nothing to do with... things like "where's the girl?!"... you think to yourself ''wtf is he talking about, what girl?!''... what exactly is it that's stopping you from telling me any random thing about any random girl you just made up on the spot, and what magic gift do I have where I know if you're telling me the truth or not? See how that works... that's why torture doesn't work. The information obtained through torture is unreliable at best and dangerous at worst. What's to stop a terrorist from telling an interrogator that there's some American hostages at some location, then that guy tells some commander and they set up a whole mission around that intel, then it turns out that it's not American hostages, it's an AQ training camp or some other enemy stronghold, American soldiers get killed, all because of that one guys intel...
Thats great and all, but your scenario and reality are not the same.

To equate the two, your scenario should go like this:

You have him chained to a table. You know for a fact he has information about a specific girl. He knows the information and is not giving it up. You waterboard him and he gives you bogus info.

Guess what though, when the interrogators check on his intel and find it to be wrong, they will go back till they get the correct info. It is all checked out, or do you think we just accept what they say at face value?

In your scenario, he does not have information.

In the real scenario, where this IS going on, he has the information and he knows it and the interrogators know it.

As for the rest, before the operation would go down, more intelligence would be gathered about the specified target. The informants story would be checked etc. They would not go in completely blind like you suggest.

And guys, the US constitution does not apply to foreigners, so you can remove that from your argument. It ONLY applies to US citizens.

Did you know: at the time this occurred, we were not adhering to the Geneva convention because it did not apply to them.

Look, you can be outraged all you want, but until you give equal outrage to these terrorists for their horrors and devote pages and pages of rhetoric to them, I will just view you as un american (only my opinion).
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Of course. The reason why torture is used is because it is effective. It works...period. I will always err on the side of my country. To do otherwise is unpatriotic and FOOLISH. Wanna be like Europe...go live there. They wish to come here.....
 

jfgordon1

Well-Known Member
Of course. The reason why torture is used is because it is effective. It works...period. I will always err on the side of my country. To do otherwise is unpatriotic and FOOLISH. Wanna be like Europe...go live there. They wish to come here.....
yes, its unpatriotic to be for the constitution. yes, its unpatriotic to give my rights away as an american citizen for the name of safety. you my friend.. ARE DELUSIONAL.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not
have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson

I WILL NEVER BE FOR GIVING UP FREEDOM !


 

may

Well-Known Member
yes, its unpatriotic to be for the constitution. yes, its unpatriotic to give my rights away as an american citizen for the name of safety. you my friend.. ARE DELUSIONAL.
You can't give your rights away as they are not transferable and THEY have NO RIGHTS past what the gov. wishes to give them. It has always been so so you thinking that your giving up something is wrong.
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
It's not about any one political figure. i don't fall into those traps...like you do.
Bullshit ... with you its always been with one political figure ... the one that break US and international laws ... you fell into the trap so long ago you think you are on level ground ... no surprises there ... :roll:

It's about keeping America safe.
No ... it's about keeping americans like you under control ... and the shit works real well on you ... you deny physics and accept that a skyscraper can come crashing straight down in 15 sec after burning for an hour ... what a dummy to believe a part of the government that has been caught in many lies ... but that how the bushwhacked mind operates ... kiss-ass

Giving away techniques and slinging careers through the mud on political witch hunts does neither. At some point you need to grow up.
Bwaaa ha ha ha ha ... you see how the bushwhacked minded are ... I've posted plenty of evidence of war crimes constitutional lawyers say they have committed war crimes ... and this jackass calls it a witch hunt ... bwaa ha ha ha ... he can't deny the facts so he blows it out his ass ... bwaaa ha ha ha ha ... and expects up to take him seriously ... bwaa ha ha ha ... way too funny :lol:

As I said IF ALL the memos are released, it will become quite clear that ALOT of valid info was obtained.
If the memos are released it will become quite clear that once again you are blowing it out your ass ... :spew:

BS that torture doesn't work...total BS.
Says the jackass that has never been tortured ... never been around anyone tortured ... never talked to anyone that has tortured ... never presented any facts that it does work other the right wing nut jobs giving their opinions ... and this guy actually thinks he has an impressive argument! ... that's how a bushwhacked mind operates ...

If that were true, mankind would have given up on it LONG ago...and yet...it is EVERYWHERE.
the are many humans that just don't get it ... and never will ... torture has been used throughout the centuries for one reason and one reason alone ... to control the people ... to keep decent from happening ... only a bushwhacked mind believes torture is effective ... nuff said ...:-|

Like I said, time to grow up and see the world as it is, not as you wish it to be. Nice and clean and everyone rowing together...it just doesn't work that way.
The world isn't the way you wish it would be either with the government protecting you from the evil terrorists ... you're dreaming ... watching too much TV ...

You have Iran executing juveniles which is TOTALLY against International law. Where's your trials? You have slavery all over Africa..... where's your trials?
We have american operative executing ... raping and torturing Iraqi children ... totally against international law ...where are the trials? What a hypocrite you are ... you spew out international law when your own country is in violation of them ... pretty pathetic ...

I'll repeat myself, which I don't do often... Are you going to put Nancy Pelosi on trial????
And I'll repeat myself ... YES ... now what part of that don't you understand?

Everyone agreed at the time it was necessary..... get some principles man.
And those that agreed at the time it was necessary must be held accountable for war crimes ... nuff said ...


Here's an oxymoron: Cracker=reason!!
I'll tellin' ya! ... sometimes I wonder if he does it just to make my day ... :hump:

Thats great and all, but your scenario and reality are not the same.
I could very easily say the same about you ...


To equate the two, your scenario should go like this:
Why should his scenario go like that?

You have him chained to a table. You know for a fact he has information about a specific girl.
How do you know for a fact he has information? ... did jack bower say so?


He knows the information and is not giving it up. You waterboard him and he gives you bogus info.
Again how do you know he has the information? because you saw it on a tv show? Because the government that has been lying about a great many things told you so? ... what?


Guess what though, when the interrogators check on his intel and find it to be wrong, they will go back till they get the correct info.
And what happens after you waterboard him for 266 times and you still don't get the "correct" information ... what then? waterboard him another 266 times until he psychicly obtain the "correct" information?

It is all checked out, or do you think we just accept what they say at face value?
Well ... since you seem to ... I would think they would as well ...

In your scenario, he does not have information.
Many real scenario's are like that ... but since it never happens that way on TV I guess you wouldn't know ...


In the real scenario, where this IS going on, he has the information and he knows it and the interrogators know it.
Again ... I ask ... how do you know this? ... because you saw it on "24"? Because the people who have been lying to us told you this ...what?


As for the rest, before the operation would go down, more intelligence would be gathered about the specified target. The informants story would be checked etc. They would not go in completely blind like you suggest.
And what happens if they don't get the information they wanted? Nothing checked out ... what then?


And guys, the US constitution does not apply to foreigners, so you can remove that from your argument. It ONLY applies to US citizens.
The constitution states we have to obey international law ... look it up.

Did you know: at the time this occurred, we were not adhering to the Geneva convention because it did not apply to them.
Now you are showing your stupidity to the folks at home and I can say stupidity since I and other posters have put up quotes and links to the GC that state it does indeed apply to them ... if you had taken the time to read you wouldn't look :dunce: now ...


Look, you can be outraged all you want, but until you give equal outrage to these terrorists for their horrors and devote pages and pages of rhetoric to them, I will just view you as un american (only my opinion).
The only terrorists I've seen are the elite contolling washington ... I'm far more concern about them than any boogie man they make up to keep me in line ... I will just view you as un american and unenlighten ... for supporting torture ... (only my opinion).:shock:
 

GrowRebel

Well-Known Member
... here's a few words from another "interrogator" about torture and its effectiveness ... I'm afraid he doesn't have cjass background ... he's actually had a hand in torture ... I know ... not credible to the bushwhacked ...
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Tortured by the Past[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Disturbing Link Between Gitmo and the Tactics I Used in Vietnam [/FONT]

When Bush administration lawyers wrote their memos authorizing extreme interrogation tactics at Guantanamo, they had to conjure up horrible images: Prisoners gagging and sputtering as their interrogators reproduced the sensation of drowning. Human heads slammed repeatedly into walls. Insect-phobic prisoners cowering in fear in 8-by-10-foot cages.
How can the lawyers live with those images? And what damage did the interrogators who used the techniques sustain to their souls?


This one is for the poster that just claimed those tortured weren't covered under the GC ... wrong again ...

http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=20090504095126875Spanish judge opens investigation into Gitmo torture allegations
According to Garzon, the alleged abuse violates the Geneva Conventions, the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, and other international treaties. Additionally, Garzon said the investigation is authorised under Spain's concept of universal jurisdiction, which allows a Spanish court to pursue certain types of cases, such as torture, outside its national borders, but only when legal action has not already commenced within the other country involved, the report says.


Obama and the War Criminals
[youtube]GAZuQiJUrIQ[/youtube]

The logic in the memos is simple: The government may utilize the ten procedures inquired about (all of which were publicly known except confinement on a coffin, bound and gagged, and in the presence of insects), so long as no one dies or comes close to death.
...and folks waterboard is the instrument used ... but it's really a drowning torture ... you can die if they don't stop in time ... nuff said ...



http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/42275An Even Worse Bybee Memo
This was another secret law, but instead of authorizing particular uses of torture (which in reality were far exceeded, engaged in prior to the memos, etc.), this one authorized any president to single-handedly commit what Nuremberg called "the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." And while the torture memos extensively and grotesquely limited the days of sleep deprivation and the hours of waterboarding, the aggressive war memo included only a single paragraph at the bottom of page 47 requiring that:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFbRSt1m2oc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsdissector.com%2Fblog%2Findex.php&feature=player_embeddedOffices of Illegal Counsel - Champions of Torture
Revelations about the secret laws governing torture that were used during the Bush administration. American Composer Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings accompanies this video.


once again more evidence that the bushwhacked minded can ignore and deny ... :-|
 
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PadawanBater

Guest
Thats great and all, but your scenario and reality are not the same.

To equate the two, your scenario should go like this:

You have him chained to a table. You know for a fact he has information about a specific girl. He knows the information and is not giving it up. You waterboard him and he gives you bogus info.
First thing about this, the guy getting waterboarded isn't always a 'terrorist'. I've seen a documentary and read a few different reports of regular people being captured and in American custody in either Iraq or Afghanistan, one of the guys was actually a Bristish citizen of middle eastern descent and he got sent to Gitmo, where they tortured him, when he got out he told the media and his government what happened. This is infact happening to innocent people, just like the American death penalty, innocent people get executed, it happens, the fact that the state has the authority to KILL potentially innocent people is what's bogus, same thing applies to torturing prisoners, innocent people shouldn't be tortured. Second thing, how would you know what info was reliable and what info was false? How exactly would you seperate the two? Wouldn't a guy getting tortured tell you whatever you wanted to hear?

Guess what though, when the interrogators check on his intel and find it to be wrong, they will go back till they get the correct info. It is all checked out, or do you think we just accept what they say at face value?
I think they gather unreliable information through torture that puts American soldiers at risk. Give me one source where the information gathered through torture, that couldn't have been gathered any other way, brought about a successful mission.

In your scenario, he does not have information.

In the real scenario, where this IS going on, he has the information and he knows it and the interrogators know it.
...how can you even claim this? You seriously think everyone plays by the rules and follows orders behind closed doors in foreign prisons with zero accountability? Everyone has the potential, especially when the military and government themselves set out to dehumanize anyone of middle eastern descent so these people can do the shit they do and still sleep at night... Some of them, like Max and one other guy I can't remember his name actually like killing them, they've even admitted it, they keep kill counts and can't wait to do it again...

As for the rest, before the operation would go down, more intelligence would be gathered about the specified target. The informants story would be checked etc. They would not go in completely blind like you suggest.
Only if it suited political gains or American interests. Safety and security and fighting terrorism means shit in this war, it's all about money.

And guys, the US constitution does not apply to foreigners, so you can remove that from your argument. It ONLY applies to US citizens.
The US Constitution says we have to obey international law. International law says we can't torture. Waterboarding is defined UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW as TORTURE. 1+1=2... It's really easy guys...

Did you know: at the time this occurred, we were not adhering to the Geneva convention because it did not apply to them.
It applies to every person that is not an American citizen.

Look, you can be outraged all you want, but until you give equal outrage to these terrorists for their horrors and devote pages and pages of rhetoric to them, I will just view you as un american (only my opinion).
https://www.rollitup.org/politics/134114-iran-update-40.html

^^^Go check that thread, there's 70+ pages of me arguing with Cracker about the crazy inhumane shit the 'terrorists' do.

Just because they do it doesn't mean we should. Can you agree with that atleast?

You have to get to the root of the problem, you can't put a bandaid on a bullet wound. We created these 'terrorists'. They hate us because of our foreign policy and our governments actions the past century.

I'm outraged at any atrocities committed by any government in the name of anything. The state doesn't have the authority to inflict any kind of pain or cruel or unusual punishment on anyone, that's bullshit and doesn't belong in an intelligent civilized world.
 
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