When during the course of our evolution did we gain souls?

1itsme said:

ok I find this fascinating. if god created man in his image, and man evolved from some kind of monkey. does that mean that god is some kind of monkey? cause that would explain a few things.

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None of us know for sure whether or not we have a soul... it seems to me, as i read though this thread, that the only point the rationalists in this thread are trying to make is just that. That we don't know for sure whether or not human animals have a soul.

The theists here are trying to say that, yes, they do know they certainly do have a soul... but that they can't really prove it.

And as a rebuttal to that statement, the rationalists say... well, i don't want to believe something that may not be true, because then i would just be telling myself something is true when it very well could turn out not to be. Isn't this what you are doing Mr. Theist?

But the theists ignore the fact that their beliefs in souls could be wrong, because it's become a part of something that gives their life meaning, purpose and a sense of comfort in having certain knowledge that no one else does... and who wants to give that away for any price? Even honesty with self seems too high a price for peace of mind.

I say, i think it's silly nonsense to tell yourself something is certainly true when you know damn well you could be wrong... but that's just me.

Pretend away. /shrug

I just want to interject. Like anywhere else, the most ignorant among us are often the most outspoken. This applies almost everywhere. Christianity is the same. As a Christian, I can tell you that me and most fellow Christians I know embrace evolution, and do not think the Earth is only 6,000 years old. A lot of these "facts" are derived from the Bible, but not explicitly stated. For instance, the 6000 year thing comes from the list of who begot who in the Old Testament. If you add all those generations up, divide by an average life-span, you get appx 6000 years. So, hundreds of years ago, before we had any better knowledge, it became "logical" at the time to assume the Earth was 6000 years old. If there is one thing the Bible tells us, it is that God works in mysterious ways. I have not always been a Christian, but events in my life forced me to turn to 'something else' beyond myself. I started asking for help from God, and I kept getting it. My faith evolved, no pun.

1itsme said:

ok I find this fascinating. if god created man in his image, and man evolved from some kind of monkey. does that mean that god is some kind of monkey? cause that would explain a few things.

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Joe Rogan seen this on a DMT trip. He said the artist that drew it was almost spot on.

Zaehet Strife said:

I say, i think it's silly nonsense to tell yourself something is certainly true when you know damn well you could be wrong... but that's just me.

Pretend away. /shrug

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That goes for the entire opinion you just posted. But pretend away that your opinion is absolute truth...

Chief Walkin Eagle said:

That goes for the entire opinion you just posted. But pretend away that your opinion is absolute truth...

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Want to know an easy way to prove to yourself that you are certainly right?

Bear the burden of proof, show others just how right you are, if everyone you show is convinced that human animals have souls beyond reasonable doubt, then most likely your idea is correct.

Want to know an easy way to prove to yourself that you could certainly be wrong?

Bear the burden of proof, attempt to show others how right you think you are, if most people remain unconvinced of your conviction... then it would be fairly easy to conclude that your conviction (or belief in souls) is not sound and leaves much room for error and doubt.




I can prove to you, beyond reasonable doubt (but not with certainty) that gravity exists. I can show you, i can show everyone in the world in an easy, very simple way. This means that i can give myself the benefit of the doubt, and rationalize that yes, gravity must exist, i can show everyone, including myself, so it would be safe for me to assume that gravity exists beyond reasonable doubt.

You cannot prove the existence of souls, no one can, if someone could prove the existence of souls beyond reasonable doubt then there would be no reason to doubt their existence, which is why the question of souls is still up for debate (whereas gravity is not still up for debate)

To doubt the existence of souls is a logical thing to do, to doubt the existence of gravity is silly. I don't have to believe gravity exists in order for it to exist, because i have tangible proof that every human in the world experiences every single day, there isn't much room for doubt. Although you are required to believe that souls exist, because there is reasonable doubt to assume that they may not exist through lack of evidence and the inability to show every human in the world.




To doubt that you have a soul is an honest thing to do, an admittance to yourself that you are not quite entirely sure of your position, which is completely fine. I think it is ok to believe in them if you want, most people do, even IF you accept that you could be wrong about it, which is wiser. But i think it is more honest to admit that you are not certain of a souls existence (even if you choose to believe), just as it would be more honest to admit that we are not entirely sure if this existence is a dream or not.

You believe in gravity because you experience it. That would imply if I experience my soul I should believe it. You would then argue that my experience is not valid, just as many physicists would argue your assumption gravity exists is not valid.

You have a belief in a magical force which pulls things towards the planet. Yet science has not found this magical force and every equation they have come up with to date seems to fall short. If the math worked then we wouldn't need this magical invisible dark matter to make things come out right. Your belief that gravity pulls things toward the planet is based on the interpretation of your experience. Just like my belief in a unified consciousness is based on the interpretations of my experience.

You have only faith that gravity exists based on your observation. There is no proof of a magical force that pulls things towards the planet. Some scientists have other explanations why things appear to be sucked towards the earth which don't involve this mysterious force of gravity.

Kervork said:

You believe in gravity because you experience it. That would imply if I experience my soul I should believe it. You would then argue that my experience is not valid, just as many physicists would argue your assumption gravity exists is not valid.

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Gravity is testable. That's why people believe in it. It has nothing to do with 'experiencing' it, in the way you're talking about.

We can test gravity by dropping things. No assumption required.

What test can you perform to verify the existence of the soul?

If you can come up with one, I'm sure you'd win a Nobel Prize.

Kervork said:

You believe in gravity because you experience it. That would imply if I experience my soul I should believe it. You would then argue that my experience is not valid, just as many physicists would argue your assumption gravity exists is not valid.

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the thing with gravity is that it's testable. you can set up an experiment to show that it's there which other people can not disprove.
lol ^^^^ what he said.

You drop something, it falls towards the planet so you postulate a magical force of gravity to explain it's behavior. You make equations which attempt to predict this, however all of them fall flat if extended far enough. The only thing we know for sure is that none of our current theories of gravity work without postulating the existence of exotic things which we have not actually seen. Aka dark matter.

The fact is, we do not know for sure that a physical force called gravity actually exists. If you could come up with proof that the force of gravity exists you would win the nobel prize too.

great converasations . . by all when i think about consciousness and "I" thought process's, I am continually reminded that i am a collection of specific tissues, designed for a specific purpose and that I am nothing without the combined effort of thousands if not millions of specialized cells . . .basically a single organism, made up by a multitude of smaller cells, able to ponder the thought of "I" or my own consciousness as a group effort . . . . .


and am humbled as my idea about self and consciousness leads to a thought that self and consciousness are just a manifestation to help me live and grow . . . .me and every specialized cell as one organism

if souls existed, it would seem logical to me that they would always be here like a life spark from birth to death, and am uncertain of any proof other then belief, but to me they were either their all the time or never . . .you cant earn a soul imo

What i find interesting about a facet of this debate is the invocation of "consciousness". While the term is much more palatable to us terribly modern Westerners, it could very well be begging the question just as directly as invocation of soul. cn

http://raelifin.com/thoughts/is-consciousness-real-a-practical-answer/

Kervork said:

You believe in gravity because you experience it.

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Say i experienced gravity, but the vast majority of the human animals on this planet did not, or could not. Then it would be safe for me to conclude that my experience of gravity is merely a figment of my imagination, as it does not pertain to everyone... just myself, within my own limited mind and experience.

Except, that with gravity, we all know that everyone whom resides within this reality can, and does experience it every day, every moment of every day it effects us, all of us. We can watch it as we watch the planets revolve around each other, as black holes suck in every piece of matter that comes too close, as we watch water fall to the ground from the sky, as we watch the rivers flow down the mountains and not up them. As we throw a baseball or football, as we drop our phones, as we drop our TV remote controllers on our feet and wince from the temporary pain.

If i were to believe everything i experienced, i would inevitably become disillusioned and maybe even insane, because as we all know, through optical illusions that our brains fool us ALL the time. The only way to be sure of something is to show others, allow them to see and to confirm whether or not our conclusion is sound, or just a figment of our imagination. To help us figure out whether or not we should continue to be skeptical of a conclusion we have come up with, or be verified in our thinking.

If we cannot share our experience with other people, how can we be sure it is not just a figment of our imagination? How? By pleading with ourselves? By continuing to tell ourselves;

"It doesn't matter if no one else sees the things i see, or experiences the things i experience, i know it is true because i feel it and, and i believe it! I don't care if no one else can!"

-that does not sound like a way to get to the truth about something, that does not sound like a way to get past doubting our own ideas and conclusions we come up with. That, to me, sounds like a scape goat, a way to believe something just because we want to regardless of what anyone else says, regardless of what the mass population says.




Don't get me wrong, i would love to believe (to feel sure of the truth of) in the idea of us having an eternal soul, of a part of us continuing to exist after we die. A part of me wants to believe that so much. But i can't, even if i have had spiritual experiences that attempt to explain to me that i do... because i know my mind is fallible, it is prone to error, and if i can't show anyone else how am i supposed to be certain that my experience was anything but a figment of my imagination or a dream?

I can't be certain i have a soul, i have to be honest with myself. I know that no matter how badly i want one, no matter how much i believe, it doesn't make it so, it doesn't mean i have one... i could be wrong. The truth is;

That i don't know. I don't know, and i am not afraid to say it or tell people that.

The skeptics here are merely trying to make one point, and one point only; How can you be certain, how can you be absolutely sure you have a soul or that souls exist without being able to show others? Now understand that i am absolutely not saying that souls do not exist, because like i have stated before, I DON'T KNOW. But neither do you know for sure, or anyone else on the planet for that matter, because the idea of souls has not yet been proven beyond a reasonable doubt throughout the whole population of human animals on this small rotating rock.

To say you are absolutely sure that souls exist, only allows us to see your desperation that they do exist... when anyone with a basic understanding of reality can tell you honestly... how can you be so sure??? And when you do not have a sound answer, we can look in your eyes and see the doubt, but you have been hiding from it all the while.

It is ok to doubt, you can still doubt and hold onto a belief. I believe this is a dream, but all within the understanding that i do not know if it is or not. It takes courage to doubt our most cherished and desired beliefs... but in order to get to the truth, we must at one time in our lives doubt everything.




It is ok to say; "I don't know" "I am not absolutely sure, but i think it's true" "I could be wrong, but i am going to believe it anyways" Those are honest answers, honest words.

To say you know for certain, for sure, only shows the rest of us your desperation brought from the fear of being wrong.

cannabineer said:

What i find interesting about a facet of this debate is the invocation of "consciousness". While the term is much more palatable to us terribly modern Westerners, it could very well be begging the question just as directly as invocation of soul. cn

http://raelifin.com/thoughts/is-consciousness-real-a-practical-answer/

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I personally think consciousness is an illusion.

Zaehet Strife said:

Want to know an easy way to prove to yourself that you are certainly right?

Bear the burden of proof, show others just how right you are, if everyone you show is convinced that human animals have souls beyond reasonable doubt, then most likely your idea is correct.

Want to know an easy way to prove to yourself that you could certainly be wrong?

Bear the burden of proof, attempt to show others how right you think you are, if most people remain unconvinced of your conviction... then it would be fairly easy to conclude that your conviction (or belief in souls) is not sound and leaves much room for error and doubt.




I can prove to you, beyond reasonable doubt (but not with certainty) that gravity exists. I can show you, i can show everyone in the world in an easy, very simple way. This means that i can give myself the benefit of the doubt, and rationalize that yes, gravity must exist, i can show everyone, including myself, so it would be safe for me to assume that gravity exists beyond reasonable doubt.

You cannot prove the existence of souls, no one can, if someone could prove the existence of souls beyond reasonable doubt then there would be no reason to doubt their existence, which is why the question of souls is still up for debate (whereas gravity is not still up for debate)

To doubt the existence of souls is a logical thing to do, to doubt the existence of gravity is silly. I don't have to believe gravity exists in order for it to exist, because i have tangible proof that every human in the world experiences every single day, there isn't much room for doubt. Although you are required to believe that souls exist, because there is reasonable doubt to assume that they may not exist through lack of evidence and the inability to show every human in the world.




To doubt that you have a soul is an honest thing to do, an admittance to yourself that you are not quite entirely sure of your position, which is completely fine. I think it is ok to believe in them if you want, most people do, even IF you accept that you could be wrong about it, which is wiser. But i think it is more honest to admit that you are not certain of a souls existence (even if you choose to believe), just as it would be more honest to admit that we are not entirely sure if this existence is a dream or not.

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Lucid dreaming, astral projection (higher form of lucid dreaming), psychedelic trips, and in my case a few spiritually gifted friends are ways to find out if a soul exists or not. I think its meant to be a daunting task to discover the soul and cant be proven through such shallow means brought on by a arrogant request such as "Ok, show me". The skeptics would call that special pleading I guess, but I think it would be short cut to finding yourself if souls could demonstrated the way you want them to be, and there is no shortcuts to improving yourself spiritually, but that statement might as well be spiritual "woo" to you. You've obliviously found your soul through lucid dreaming but recent events show that something is going wrong there as well... Perhaps your egotistical mindset of "Im right, you're wrong. Im honest, you're a liar. Im brave, you're cowardly" is corrupting your mind and is partly why you're having problems in the dream world (Yes, btw, that is the message you send when you spew this trademark lecture).

You say you are a very humble person but when you act like this thats very hard to believe. Your argument can easily be turned on you. You say you know these things because it makes you feel special. To say you do know these things goes against your philosophy of uncertainty. Its a loophole so you feel more comfortable in the world. You dont know if its possible to know if souls exist, Z, you Dont. Whos to say theres not a man on an island whos been meditating for a thousand years just waiting for the right moment to expose the truth to the world? Not likely at all but still, you dont know.

I love responding to this trademark lecture you always post because you completely deny and dont even address the flaws that are in it.

You dont know, Z, and I will always be here to tell you that.

Are we really at the point that we're arguing the existence of gravity? Really? This is a new intellectual low -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

Gravitational theory (esp. GR) is amazingly accurate, so much so that we can predict where our space probes will land on Mars within meters. Whether it is a fundamental force (most physicists), or simply caused by differences in entropy (Jacobson/Verlinde) really makes no difference imo. Its theory is solid, and the force is very real...

Chief Walkin Eagle said:

You dont know, Z, and I will always be here to tell you that.

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Until that man presents himself, and can convince everyone else on this planet beyond reasonable doubt that souls exist... neither do you Cheif. It's ok to say "I am not certain, but i think it is so."

The only difference between you and i, is that i know i could be wrong, i could be wrong about all of my spiritual beliefs (yes, i do have them) yet you hold onto the illusion that you are not wrong. I don't know what this is, what all of this existence is, if we have souls or an afterlife, yet you hold onto a preposition that you do know. Which of us here is being more egotistical?



The one who admits humbly that they do not know, or the one who claims they have the answers to all of our most desired questions in existence?



Although i will agree with the others, you have come a long way Cheif, but you still have yet to grasp the concepts i speak about in a way that will make sense to your brain. Unless you can at some time in your life doubt everything, then you cannot grasp the idea of not knowing whether or not this is a dream, whether or not this is actually hell, whether or not this is just IT, whether or not...any idea you can come up with.

It's scary to not know, but with it comes a freedom i will never be able to describe.







One of the easiest examples i have to help people understand the concepts that i speak of about doubt originates from an idea from Hume. What if, this is hell. What if we are all already in it, and religion is something that the devil made up, the devil actually rules all of us. What if the experiences that make you believe whatever it is that you believe, was created by the devil in order for him to confuse you and make you believe something that isn't true?

The funny thing is, that when you really think about it, this possibility is just as accurate as the possibility of this existence being made from whatever god of your choosing.

How can you be sure you are not being manipulated by an evil demon god??? (You can't, lol!) What if this evil demon god is taking the form of whatever god or experience you think you can trust in order to fool you? How do you know for sure if your spiritual experiences aren't created by a malevolent god for his pleasure??

Take a deep understanding of this, and you may begin to understand the concept of doubt.

Zaehet Strife said:

Until that man presents himself, and can convince everyone else on this planet beyond reasonable doubt that souls exist... neither do you Cheif. It's ok to say "I am not certain, but i think it is so."

The only difference between you and i, is that i know i could be wrong, i could be wrong about all of my spiritual beliefs (yes, i do have them) yet you hold onto the illusion that you are not wrong. I don't know what this is, what all of this existence is, if we have souls or an afterlife, yet you hold onto a preposition that you do know. Which of us here is being more egotistical?



The one who admits humbly that they do not know, or the one who claims they have the answers to all of our most desired questions in existence?



Although i will agree with the others, you have come a long way Cheif, but you still have yet to grasp the concepts i speak about in a way that will make sense to your brain. Unless you can at some time in your life doubt everything, then you cannot grasp the idea of not knowing whether or not this is a dream, whether or not this is actually hell, whether or not this is just IT, whether or not...any idea you can come up with.

It's scary to not know, but with it comes a freedom i will never be able to describe.







One of the easiest examples i have to help people understand the concepts that i speak of about doubt originates from an idea from Hume. What if, this is hell. What if we are all already in it, and religion is something that the devil made up, the devil actually rules all of us. What if the experiences that make you believe whatever it is that you believe, was created by the devil in order for him to confuse you and make you believe something that isn't true?

The funny thing is, that when you really think about it, this possibility is just as accurate as the possibility of this existence being made from whatever god of your choosing.

How can you be sure you are not being manipulated by an evil demon god??? (You can't, lol!) What if this evil demon god is taking the form of whatever god or experience you think you can trust in order to fool you? How do you know for sure if your spiritual experiences aren't created by a malevolent god for his pleasure??

Take a deep understanding of this, and you may begin to understand the concept of doubt.

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Retreating back to the "You dont know if a little demon fairy is whispering evil lies into your ear" argument? lol That is too funny. I dont think that is ever going to win any arguments.

I understand your concepts completely Z, how couldnt I? This is your favorite little tid bit you try to pass as absolute truth. Any semi intelligent theist can understand what you're posting, its just that we dont buy into it, and at least in my case its not because your ideas conflict with my so called fairy tales. It wouldnt make you look so bad if you try and pass it as opinion but you might as well be OldGrowth420 when trying push your truths on me.

Why is it so hard to say "I dont know if its possible to know if souls exist. I dont know if anyone knows if souls exist"? Saying that should be right up your ally, because this law of uncertainty is such a major part of your philosophy. But no, you claim certainty that no one knows such things, because if these experiences people have are real, they might be caused by a demon fairy working for the devil to manipulate peoples reality... Yeah, good one Z.

When we busted our first nuts

we always had one