War

DIY-HP-LED said:

America has bilateral defense agreements outside NATO, several of them and other NATO members do too. It would not mean war with NATO if say Poland was allied with Ukraine or Turkey in a bilateral agreement. NATO is a defensive alliance and it would not involve itself, Poland would be on it's own as would Turkey, if they went to war in such circumstances, as would America and as they did in Iraq and other places. Article 5 was invoked by America over 9/11 and everybody went to Afghanistan. NATO is an alliance of equals in many ways, except for military and economic power.

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But as far as Russia would be concerned it would be war with Nato.

printer said:

But as far as Russia would be concerned it would be war with Nato.

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It would be a risk, which is why I think if Russia continues on the same course, Ukraine will become an independent force and place that smaller former Soviet republics might coalesce around. There would be no need for Turkey of Poland to be part of it with a militarily and economically strong Ukraine that might be part of the EU, but not NATO. When they win this war and destroy or capture most of Vlad's army there, they will continue to grow stronger as their economy recovers and they are fully equipped with NATO arms. I figure in a couple of years, Ukraine will be the strongest most experienced military power on the continent. A big enough army, but a massive reserve of experienced people for the next decade.

That is why I figure Ukraine will stay clear of NATO and alliances with it's members, beat the Russians, destroy their army and economy, as they reequip with modern arms. Them forming an alliance with a revolutionary government in Belarus is a possibility and even helping Georgia out. They will be useful to have in Vlad's face and will be instrumental in reforming Russian culture and politics. Ukraine and Belarus as liberal democracies would make an iron curtain through the Russian cultural world impossible to implement.

printer said:

But as far as Russia would be concerned it would be war with Nato.

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some might say Nato and Russia are at war right now.......

i'm still trying to understand putin's reasoning in all of this. there must be much larger psychological differences between russians and Americans than i thought. nothing he has done makes much sense in any context i can put it in that doesn't seem insane or just incredibly unlikely.
he didn't want NATO to expand in Europe, so he does the one thing guaranteed to ensure NATO's expansion in Europe.
did he not realize that while he might be the big boy on the block in eastern Europe, he's just a snot nosed punk to the rest of the world?
his bully boys followed his example, robbing and stealing what they could, and putin didn't even think to check up on them independently.
now, even if he can retain control of crimea or the donbaas, it will be a constant drain, and i honestly do not think he can achieve even partial control, the math just doesn't add up. he cannot possibly station enough troops to maintain control of the area permanently, it will be a miniature version of the black hole the war has already become for russia, siphoning off men, materials, and money in huge gulps.

Russia will take retaliatory measures when Finland joins NATO
Russia will be forced to take retaliatory measures if Finland joins NATO, the Foreign Ministry said .

The diplomatic department noted that the intention of the Finnish authorities to immediately apply for membership in the alliance was a radical change in the foreign policy of the country, which for decades adhered to a policy of military non-alignment.

"Russia will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to stop the threats to its national security that arise in this regard," the Foreign Ministry stressed.

BudmanTX said:

some might say Nato and Russia are at war right now.......

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Some?

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i'm still trying to understand putin's reasoning in all of this. there must be much larger psychological differences between russians and Americans than i thought. nothing he has done makes much sense in any context i can put it in that doesn't seem insane or just incredibly unlikely.
he didn't want NATO to expand in Europe, so he does the one thing guaranteed to ensure NATO's expansion in Europe.
did he not realize that while he might be the big boy on the block in eastern Europe, he's just a snot nosed punk to the rest of the world?
his bully boys followed his example, robbing and stealing what they could, and putin didn't even think to check up on them independently.
now, even if he can retain control of crimea or the donbaas, it will be a constant drain, and i honestly do not think he can achieve even partial control, the math just doesn't add up. he cannot possibly station enough troops to maintain control of the area permanently, it will be a miniature version of the black hole the war has already become for russia, siphoning off men, materials, and money in huge gulps.

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He thought Nato was a toothless tiger, that he could walk in and the Russians would be greeted as heroes.

Oops.

China wants to form its own military alliance

BudmanTX said:

some might say Nato and Russia are at war right now.......

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Russia is at war with Ukraine who are increasingly using NATO weapons, but they've been using NATO training and military doctrine for years, since their defeat in 2014. Ukraine has been at war for the last 8 years, the constant pressure made them strong and caused nearly a half million men to go trough NATO training over the years. NATO only provided a few Stingers, Javelins and NLAWs at the start, Ukrainian success and Russian war crimes and atrocities caused the rest of the shit to pour in. If NATO were at war with these clowns, they would have lunch at Vlad's table in the remains of the Kremlin the same day it started.

printer said:

Some?

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well if you look at the overall picture.....every single nato country has donated, arms, food, training,etc, etc.....in Ukraine itself there is something called the legions these are made up of conscrips/voluteers from other country prodominately nato countries and some from other countries including Georgia, Isreal, Chechen, prolly more just dunno...while on the other side Ukraine isn't in the EU and or Nato at the moment

BudmanTX said:

well if you look at the overall picture.....every single nato country has donated, arms, food, training,etc, etc.....in Ukraine itself there is something called the legions these are made up of conscrips/voluteers from other country prodominately nato countries and some from other countries including Georgia, Isreal, Chechen, prolly more just dunno...while on the other side Ukraine isn't in the EU and or Nato at the moment

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Other countries than NATO are providing arms too and Vlad has many enemies who ended up in Ukraine, volunteers are private citizens from liberal democracies. We have something Vlad doesn't, values and it binds us together in trust and cooperation, it's also something to fight for, other than the whims of a dictator. Liberal democracies have beliefs and ideas that bind us to each other in the face of the likes of Vlad, Stalin or Hitler. The American revolution was like this, people fought for their beliefs and their homes against British imperialism. The problem the Russian troops have is they are not fighting for anything are slaves and not part of a team with a common objective and able leadership.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Other countries than NATO are providing arms too and Vlad has many enemies who ended up in Ukraine, volunteers are private citizens from liberal democracies. We have something Vlad doesn't, values and it binds us together in trust and cooperation, it's also something to fight for, other than the whims of a dictator. Liberal democracies have beliefs and ideas that bind us to each other in the face of the likes of Vlad, Stalin or Hitler. The American revolution was like this, people fought for their beliefs and their homes against British imperialism. The problem the Russian troops have is they are not fighting for anything are slaves and not part of a team with a common objective and able leadership.

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yeah i know, most of those are slavic countries that are in Nato as well......might early russian stuff which is good and for UA can use really quick, but Nato itself has also stepped up, in the training and it's logisitics....think even Finland and the Sweds even donated to the cause, and they aren't in Nato yet, but they will be....

if i'm right Geogia and Chechen are there, i've been hearing Isreal is there too for medical and prolly some voluteers we haven't heard about too...

Ukrainian Troops Wage Counterattacks On Russian Positions Near Kharkiv

BudmanTX said:

yeah i know, most of those are slavic countries that are in Nato as well......might early russian stuff which is good and for UA can use really quick, but Nato itself has also stepped up, in the training and it's logisitics....think even Finland and the Sweds even donated to the cause, and they aren't in Nato yet, but they will be....

if i'm right Geogia and Chechen are there, i've been hearing Isreal is there too for medical and prolly some voluteers we haven't heard about too...

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They are kinda fighting the UN in a way, there are a lot of countries giving military aid and even more giving other aid, it ain't just America, though Sammy jumped in with both feet. When ya consider how much ya spend every year containing the Russian threat, this is a real fucking bargain and the best bet in decades. If the Ukrainians win this war the way I think they will, they can stand in for most US troops in Europe and Uncle Sam can focus on China and get his defense industry a big boost with sales and replacement of depleted stocks with new stuff that's even better.

I think China will be more focused on central Asia now, that is where the oil, gas and resources it needs are and they can be got cheap. After this shit, other than saving face, Xi won't fuck with Taiwan, they make the worlds most advance microchips and they make a lot of them, both the west and China are dependent on this trade, especially now. Taiwan is an industrial and technological tiger with allies like Japan and America. They can make very advanced weapons by the millions with little problem by themselves, ditto for South Korea. Xi's invading army would be at the bottom of the sea before they sighted the place.

Pentagon: Russians Making Incremental Progress At Best In Ukraine

Canada uses these and we sent a bunch to Ukraine, nice to know it can also take out a T90. Sweden sent a whack of them along with other anti tank weapons, they make the NLAW too, along with the UK
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Why Ukraine Military Thanked Sweden After Taking Down Putin’s Advanced T-90 Tank In War


May 11, 2022 Ukrainian troops claim to have achieved yet another breakthrough by blowing up a second Russian T-90M tank in Kharkiv. A video posted by Ukrainian defence ministry on May 10 shows an aerial view of a tank being hit by a rocket. Ukrainian defence ministry said that their troops used a Swedish Carl Gustaf handheld anti-tank grenade launcher to destroy the tank. The attack reportedly took place in the Kharkiv province, which has seen intense battle between Russian and Ukrainian forces. The reported destruction of the Russian main battle tank comes only days after Ukraine said that it destroyed the first T-90M.

Why the Carl Gustaf Recoilless Rifle Is So Popular With The US Military