BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
that was an expensive oops
War
- Thread starter captainmorgan
- Start date
printer
Well-Known Member
Western-made armor isn't working in Ukraine because it wasn't designed for a conflict of this intensity, Ukrainian analyst says
Western-made armor is failing in Ukraine because it wasn't designed to sustain a conflict of this intensity, a military analyst told The Wall Street Journal.
Taras Chmut, a military analyst who's the head of the Come Back Alive Foundation, which has raised money to purchase and provide arms and equipment to Ukraine, said that "a lot of Western armor doesn't work here because it had been created not for an all-out war but for conflicts of low or medium intensity."
"If you throw it into a mass offensive, it just doesn't perform," he said.
Chmut went on to say Ukraine's Western allies should instead turn their attention to delivering simpler and cheaper systems, but in larger quantities, something Ukraine has repeatedly requested, the newspaper reported.
Despite Chmut's comments, some advanced Western systems Ukraine has received were conceived with the highest-intensity combat in mind — NATO going head-to-head with Soviet forces. The US-made Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and Abrams main battle tanks were built specifically to counter Soviet ground forces.
But like other armored systems, they are susceptible to artillery and mines, both of which have proven fearsome challenges as Ukraine presses against Russian defensive networks.
Less than 5% of tanks destroyed since the start of the war had been taken out by other tanks, Ukrainian officials said in the Journal report, with the rest falling to mines, artillery, antitank missiles, and drones. This means the relative sophistication of a tank is no longer as important, the paper says.
Maj. Gen. Christian Freuding, Germany's director of planning and command staff, said Western military strategists had not yet accepted that quantity trumps quality.
"You need numbers; you need force numbers. In the West, we have reduced our military; we have reduced our stocks. But quantity matters; mass matters," he told the Journal.
Even so, Ukraine continues to ask for more sophisticated tanks and military equipment from its allies.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly criticized Western allies for delays in the deliveries of weapons, saying earlier this month that slower arms shipments were hurting Ukraine's chances of success in its ongoing counteroffensive.
A July report compiled by the Kiel Institute for the World Economy said Ukraine's allies had only delivered about half of the heavy weapons that had been promised.
"The gap between promised and delivered military aid is wide," Christoph Trebesch, the head of the team creating the tracker, said.
Meanwhile, Ukraine's defense minister, Rustem Umerov, told The Economist last week his country was prioritizing domestic ammunition production. "Anything that can be produced locally must be produced locally," he said.
Sergej Sumlenny, founder of the German think tank European Resilience Initiative Center, previously told Insider that Ukraine was stepping up its domestic production in part because of concern that Western deliveries would not keep up with its military needs.
www.businessinsider.in
Western-made armor is failing in Ukraine because it wasn't designed to sustain a conflict of this intensity, a military analyst told The Wall Street Journal.
Taras Chmut, a military analyst who's the head of the Come Back Alive Foundation, which has raised money to purchase and provide arms and equipment to Ukraine, said that "a lot of Western armor doesn't work here because it had been created not for an all-out war but for conflicts of low or medium intensity."
"If you throw it into a mass offensive, it just doesn't perform," he said.
Chmut went on to say Ukraine's Western allies should instead turn their attention to delivering simpler and cheaper systems, but in larger quantities, something Ukraine has repeatedly requested, the newspaper reported.
Despite Chmut's comments, some advanced Western systems Ukraine has received were conceived with the highest-intensity combat in mind — NATO going head-to-head with Soviet forces. The US-made Bradley infantry fighting vehicles and Abrams main battle tanks were built specifically to counter Soviet ground forces.
But like other armored systems, they are susceptible to artillery and mines, both of which have proven fearsome challenges as Ukraine presses against Russian defensive networks.
Less than 5% of tanks destroyed since the start of the war had been taken out by other tanks, Ukrainian officials said in the Journal report, with the rest falling to mines, artillery, antitank missiles, and drones. This means the relative sophistication of a tank is no longer as important, the paper says.
Maj. Gen. Christian Freuding, Germany's director of planning and command staff, said Western military strategists had not yet accepted that quantity trumps quality.
"You need numbers; you need force numbers. In the West, we have reduced our military; we have reduced our stocks. But quantity matters; mass matters," he told the Journal.
Even so, Ukraine continues to ask for more sophisticated tanks and military equipment from its allies.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly criticized Western allies for delays in the deliveries of weapons, saying earlier this month that slower arms shipments were hurting Ukraine's chances of success in its ongoing counteroffensive.
A July report compiled by the Kiel Institute for the World Economy said Ukraine's allies had only delivered about half of the heavy weapons that had been promised.
"The gap between promised and delivered military aid is wide," Christoph Trebesch, the head of the team creating the tracker, said.
Meanwhile, Ukraine's defense minister, Rustem Umerov, told The Economist last week his country was prioritizing domestic ammunition production. "Anything that can be produced locally must be produced locally," he said.
Sergej Sumlenny, founder of the German think tank European Resilience Initiative Center, previously told Insider that Ukraine was stepping up its domestic production in part because of concern that Western deliveries would not keep up with its military needs.
Western-made armor isn't working in Ukraine because it wasn't designed for a conflict of this intensity, Ukrainian analyst says | Business Insider India
Sophisticated, Western-made armor is proving inadequate on the battlefield in Ukraine, a military analyst told The Wall Street Journal.
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BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
they still make flight sims for OS's and desktops......
personal fav :
Microsoft Flight Simulator - The next generation of one of the most beloved simulation franchises
Microsoft Flight Simulator is the next generation of one of the most beloved simulation franchises.
www.flightsimulator.com
if you ever wanted to learn how to fly and it's controls here ya go....pst make sure u get it with the F4's....
if you want war:
ck out war thunder, they're battle flight sims are awesome, and u can get a lot of people involved too, excellent multi players war game
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
You can fly around your area in google earth too or used to be able to.they still make flight sims for OS's and desktops......
personal fav :
Microsoft Flight Simulator - The next generation of one of the most beloved simulation franchises
Microsoft Flight Simulator is the next generation of one of the most beloved simulation franchises.
if you ever wanted to learn how to fly and it's controls here ya go....pst make sure u get it with the F4's....
if you want war:
ck out war thunder, they're battle flight sims are awesome, and u can get a lot of people involved too, excellent multi players war game
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Joe can be reasonable; I see their support of Russia has backed off a bit and they are limiting the drones they get from some reports I've seen. Xi has plenty of economic trouble at home and wants to make nice methinks, they cannot risk losing trade with the west or their Asian neighbors.
Xi’s ‘Growing Concern For China’s Economy’ | US-China: Information War | C919
Xi’s ‘Growing Concern For China’s Economy’ | US-China: Information War | C919
The whole saga is bizzare, beyond comprehension and reason,I honestly have to pinch myself that so many fellow American's could be duped by such a transparent con as this man, their blind hatred of any liberalism and Dems has blinded them and their ability to reason,his latest rant about executing Gen. Milley is off the charts outrageous and still not an inch of pushback from any Reps.,VILE. Donald,you couldn't carry Gen. Milley's jock, in the meantime I'll patiently wait for you to DIE for the good of my country have a couple more Big Macs.
Good point,it slipped my mind that the Viper is nuke capable.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It is a pretty black and white war with few ambiguities, a Liberal democratic country repeatedly attacked and invaded by an authoritarian imperialist power. This was in violation of international law and several treaties the Russians signed, which turned out to be as worthless as the preWW2 Munich agreement that Chamberlain waved around. From the perspective of liberal democracies, it is a just, and righteous war for the Ukrainians, and an existential one for them. We are right to ally and support Ukraine, their population supports the war, and they are willing to make the sacrifice for survival and freedom.
With our help and training and using our, equipment, methods of military organization and military culture along with their own initiative ideas and creativity, they beat the Russians to a standstill and are driving them back. The Ukrainians have almost completely destroyed the Russian military in less than two years for a minimal cost to us, we are getting the geopolitical bargain of the century, money invested, not spent. They are using up or have used up the vast hoard of old Soviet Equipment and ammo along with the stuff they recently made. They are under sanctions and will be for a long time so they can't make much new stuff or modernized stuff either. Once it's gone, most of it will be gone for good and so will the conventional threat they pose to Europe and even their smaller neighbors. This war will change the geopolitical map of Europe and Asia and must have made Xi think twice about invading Tiawan.
printer
Well-Known Member
Two kinds of people.
"I want a good life, hell with anyone else."
"We are a global family."
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Just think, this could be America if Trump were president...
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Works like that locally as well as nationally and globally.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Donald has been under a lot of stress lately and it is gonna get more stressful for him with each passing day, so expect some pretty off the wall behavior until he is caged. His muzzle is about to be drawn tighter by Chutkan and it's a tossup as to who will jail him pretrial first, Georgia or DC. It will be hard for him to STFU with all the witnesses and evidence coming out against him in the media every day and we are nowhere near the trial dates yet. He is getting sued for hundreds of millions, will lose his NY properties and might go bankrupt before he goes to prison and yesterday a big rat squealed on him and the rest for a deal. Jack wants his ass and Jack doesn't fuck around Georgia has got him dead to rights and it is looking more and more like a regular prison for Trump, he is being tried with codefendants for the same crimes and they will go to prison, a regular one.
No wonder Donald is nervous and striking out, a normal person would have eaten a bullet or had a heart attack by now. BTW the biggest predictor of a heart attack is the level of stress in the preceding 90 days as measured by blood cortisol (a stress hormone). They used hair samples from survivors and corpses to determine this and chronically high cortisol levels raise blood pressure, inflame arteries and cause cholesterol to stick like glue.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Dissenting opinion. While currently it is 99+% Ukraine, it’s a handy place for all things war.
heh; posted at 4:20 local
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
There will be plenty of wars and near wars so a general thread will do, until there is peace, which doesn't seem likely. War is politics by other means and funding the war in Ukraine was part of the recent American shutdown show, to be revisited in 45 days. It sure is a big part of international politics and will change the geopolitical map of Europe and Asia. It is giving Xi pause about Tiawan, unless he is criminally insane like Putin, and it removes his big potential military ally from the table.
This war might save us a lot of future trouble and expense, I look at it as an investment, not a cost, we've spent plenty defending against Soviet and now Russian aggression and imperialism. I see Canada is cutting a billion from our military budget, a bit early for a peace dividend I think, but with Russia gone from the field and China in deep economic trouble and dependent on the global economic system and trade, I can see reduced defense costs in our future.
printer
Well-Known Member
20% seems like a hell of a lot for a fresh coat of paint.
Let's hope Ukrainian funding is restored(it was left out of the latest shutdown dodge) and the US and Europe don't tire as this drags on(cracks are staring to appear),the repercussions of abandoning Ukraine after all this effort would be dire indeed and set a terrible precedent. At this point we can't turn tale and so far the US military aid accounts for a mere 3% of the defense budget,it's time to up the ante w/ATACM's and attack choppers in addition to the F-16's,more Patriot systems are also needed.I'm still concerned that Xi covets Tawain and worry that he is tempted to see all the new Chin ese capabilities in action especially if economic pressure worsens and he needs a diversion in stoking nationalism,that sais China has never launched such a risky pre-emptive operation that I can recall and the world would be shocked if it occurred and taking us down a dark alley of escalaton and turmoil that I don't want to see.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
In America and Europe, a lot of the 5th column stuff is at Russia's command, in America it centers around Trump and those trying to appease and please him, and Trump is at Putin's command. He did screw Vlad inadvertently while trying to make trouble for Joe by pulling out of Afghanistan and Joe had to go along with the agreement Trump made with the Taliban. The last place America or especially our European allies wanted to be, would be there, with Vlad on the march in Europe!
Joe won't let Putin win, in fact he will destroy him, the Russian military and economy by the end of his first term in office I figure. Joe has a lot of tricks up his sleeve and money has been set aside for Ukraine for years to come, this was supplemental funding. Joe can seize Russian money and if he declares Russia a state sponsor of terrorism there will be a Helluva lot more Russian money he can seize and give to the Ukrainians. That money is earmarked for reconstruction and reparations for Ukraine. If Vlad is depending on Donald, then like a lot of maga Americans, he will be disappointed. Donald is a loser and Vlad will be one too, I kinda figure they will march through the gates of Hell arm in arm at about the same time, Vlad out a window and Donald to Hell in a cell.
If Joe loses in 24, he will declare Russia a state sponsor of terrorism and seize all the Russian money then give it to Ukraine before leaving office and then leave it up to the republicans to try and give the money back to the Russians. I'm sure the public would be all for giving the Russians hundreds of billions. See what Trump does then (he will be in prison and disqualified IMO), when hundreds of billions in Russian money is seized including private Russian money. However, America is not the only country supporting Ukraine, many in Europe are giving far more money in terms of their total GDP than America is. Many European NATO members have larger economies than Russia does.
When you think about how many times America went it alone, to have this many enthusiastic allies are something novel, not since ww2 has America had such strong and dedicated allies. It is a NATO fight and America is not supporting NATO as it should, if they pull the plug on Ukraine, forget NATO, it won't be in America's future if it stabs European allies in the back. Germany, Poland and Ukraine will be the main military powers in Europe soon and after Russia is destroyed in Ukraine, they will be able to deal with Russia on their own with nuclear backing from the UK and France.
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