vertical growing
- Thread starter cerberus
- Start date
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Right. Recommend you make that distinction, which you failed to do.
Make your case honestly, or expect my wrath.
Lot's of gung ho theorists and chest beaters here.
Vertical lighting does NOT guarantee more plants per light, quite the opposite. It will guarantee less due to about 30% of the plant being illuminated with the other 70% of the plant being shaded.
If God wanted plants to be illuminated sideways, he would have kept the sun on the horizon.
UB
bigtomatofarmer
Well-Known Member
15 plants around one vertical 400 watt HPS. They all look pretty good to me.
Vertical growing is amazing. Try it before you bash it.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/70310-vertical-grow-400-watt-hps.html
Vertical growing is amazing. Try it before you bash it.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/70310-vertical-grow-400-watt-hps.html
cerberus
Well-Known Member
there certainly is..
Lets be serious here, God never intended you to grow inside did he? God never intended for bubbleponics but it seems to work. I know you are a better horticulturalist than that.
Youre the same guy that says, nay preaches about not trimming leaves. Why dont you need to remove leaves to help light the lower plant? Because its all the same organism. 30% of the plants is illuminated? If you are suggesting that the other 70% of light is lost, Where does it go? To the plant next to it? That in itself would imply there are more plants.. No most likely the other 70% of light will hit the other leaves on the plant, remember we are not lighting the buds we are feeding the leafs. (this makes the whole pine cone analogy a little moot)
I know your pissed about your picture being used with out appropriate credit, but spouting off against something without using the knowledge you obviously have is self defacing. Im a fan of your posts, man. I think you got a shit ton of good info, there no need to be so irate that you didnt get credit for a picture..
again, much love and respect but I'm gonna call it like I see it.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I got pissed because he used my photo without my permission and then falsely passed it off to make his case for vertical growing. I explained my position perfectly well.
I'm not here to build a fan base and have explained the function of leaves every which way but Sunday. Are you thick, hard headed or what? Prune all the damn things off if it makes you feel better.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
And whose plants are those?15 plants around one vertical 400 watt HPS. They all look pretty good to me.
Vertical growing is amazing. Try it before you bash it.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/70310-vertical-grow-400-watt-hps.html
Those are some pretty slim looking colas.
bigtomatofarmer
Well-Known Member
UB read the enitre post. I clearly quoted Inbudwetrust and even provided a link to his journal.
And obviously I wasnt trying to steal your picture. Every picture I posted was already posted in this thread by somone else(except pic #1, that is my plant). I thought the distinction was obvious. Never did I claim them all as my own or was I trying to. Yes I did you use your picture to prove my point, and for that I thank you.
My point is simple. You cannot tell a difference between vertically grown and horizontal. Not now, not tomorow, not ever. That phototropism affect isnt "killer."
And obviously I wasnt trying to steal your picture. Every picture I posted was already posted in this thread by somone else(except pic #1, that is my plant). I thought the distinction was obvious. Never did I claim them all as my own or was I trying to. Yes I did you use your picture to prove my point, and for that I thank you.
My point is simple. You cannot tell a difference between vertically grown and horizontal. Not now, not tomorow, not ever. That phototropism affect isnt "killer."
That 5hit
Well-Known Member
i understood you as did he - but he cant loose, and this way of thinking is why wars happen and great thread are closed - instead of him saying to each there own he would rather argue , by saying to each there own and adding your way sucks - this happen everytime something new is added to growing ( i know vert is not new, its been around for years, blah, blah,,blah - its now taking off) this happened when people first started growing indoors the out door grower would clam that shit grown indoor looked and taste funny and did not look and taste as good as outdoor buds and this also happened with hydro, people clamed you could look at the bud and tell if it was grown in soil or by hydro , this also happened with CFL's people clamed you can look at the buds and tell if they where grown under hid's or cfl' or MH buds versus HPS bud or even bud grown from seed to bud under 12/12 versus veg time of 1month of 18/6 or 24/0UB read the enitre post. I clearly quoted Inbudwetrust and even provided a link to his journal.
And obviously I wasnt trying to steal your picture. Every picture I posted was already posted in this thread by somone else(except pic #1, that is my plant). I thought the distinction was obvious. Never did I claim them all as my own or was I trying to. Yes I did you use your picture to prove my point, and for that I thank you.
My point is simple. You cannot tell a difference between vertically grown and horizontal. Not now, not tomorow, not ever. That phototropism affect isnt "killer."
the true fact is that a grower could just as ezly produce great bud with any light in any type of medium if given time to learn that strain and style - i've seen professional outdoor grower start growing indoors only to produce less then wanted results - then turn around and later became pro indoor grower
if you took 1 strain and grew it professionally in every type of medium, every type of system using every type of light in every position indoor and outdoor form seed to cure and placed a nug of equal size and shape and weight on a table side by side you could not tell how it was grown - that like when noob's post pic of bagseed plants and buds and ask what strain is it there no way to tell
after saying all of this i end with saying growing vertical is the best way to grow
Bigrintxas
Well-Known Member
Make your case honestly? YOU are the gung ho theorist that doesnt have experience with vertical growing. YOU are the same person who said vertical plants always look unhealthy. YOU are the one saying only 30% of the plant gets light vertically. I think YOU are the one who isnt making your case honestly. Just a bunch of lies and random numbers pulled out of think air. People like YOU and rickwhite have derailed this thread incredibly. Neither one of you know what you are talking about.
cerberus
Well-Known Member
here is a fine example of a vacuous posting, first I didnt insult you, I expect the same respect back. Second, leafs feeding the machine IS my point! Youre the one that said that 30% of plant illumination crap; as a rebuttal I used YOUR advice to explain why your random 30% thing is bullshit. YOU are RIGHT. We dont need to prune fan leaves because they feed the vegetation that they shade..
　
Again, why are your shelving all your knowledge? Are you intentionally not reading through the post because your ego is feeling threatened? Nobody is questioning your ability to grow but your not applying that same knowledge to this venue. vert plants are unhealthy was never justified 30% of plant illumination was never justified. Then you go off and insult that other mans plants, trying to sling an insult at BTF. Your attitude is viral at best, not informative.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the knee jerk reaction, but after years of folks stealing my drafts and posing them as their own (by removing the "Uncle Ben" signature), pix too, I'm a little wary about the state of affairs of cannabis forums. There is little honor and alot of greed which shows its ugly head in many forms.
Here's an example right here at RIU, found by me doing a Google Search on another search issue a while back.
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html
....and another....
http://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering-1.html
....then there were incidents of plagarism at OG and 420Magazine.
My apologies, I thought you were using my picture to prove that vertical was somehow superior to horizontal.
Folks need not re-invent the wheel, Jorge Cervantes has done it for you with his excellent chapter on Lighting in his new Bible, which includes real world tests.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
This just caught me eye and needs addressing. Botany lesson for the day....
Gravitropism - is the genetic fingerprint via hormones whereby roots grow down and above ground plant material grows upwards as determined by the pull of gravity. Deprive a plant water and the petioles/leafsets will droop, has little to do with gravitropism in this situation.
I grow tall plants, like up to 5' or so, with horizontal lighting and still get good bud development on the lower branches and maintain most of the lowest fan leaves come harvest.
UB
Phototropism - is the hormonal plant response in order to collect the most amount of photons possible. The cells located on the shady side of the plant's leaf petiole will elongate and divide which bends the leaf towards the light source. Accordingly, unless you have side lighting or excellent side reflecting panels, you'll be rotating your plants in a vertical situation. Another caveat with this type of lighting.
Gravitropism - is the genetic fingerprint via hormones whereby roots grow down and above ground plant material grows upwards as determined by the pull of gravity. Deprive a plant water and the petioles/leafsets will droop, has little to do with gravitropism in this situation.
I grow tall plants, like up to 5' or so, with horizontal lighting and still get good bud development on the lower branches and maintain most of the lowest fan leaves come harvest.
UB
genuity
Well-Known Member
[/size][/size]Here are a few diagrams that I think Krusty made a few years ago to explain why vertical lighting works so well as opposed to horizontal.
As you can see their are a few benefits to vertical lighting, Number 1 The majority of the heat produced by the HID is pushed upwards to your exhaust vs the horizontal hood that traps heat and directs it at your plant's. The main advantage to this is that you can put your plants closer to your bulb's without worrying about burning them, 1 grower I know can get his plants up to 6" from his 1000w bulb but keeps them back a few more inches due to the buds getting bleached from to much light!!
Number 2 The next benefit vertical growing is that you will be using 360o of your light, you want to absolutely cover the outer diameter of the bulb with plants so barely any light can escape, this will give you the best efficiency you will be blasting your plants with as many lumen's as possible. Compare this method to a horizontal garden, if you look at the diagrams you can see that a massive 75% of the light is reflected thus killing a lot of lumen's in the process lumen's that I'd prefer getting to my plants, and after all less lumen's = less yield and we don't want that now do we!
Benefit Number 3, This next benefit is for space, the amount of space you save by growing is phenomenal, a 600w lamp would be fit for a 4X4 area at very most, and even this is only a low 37.5 watts per square foot. compare this to a vertical set up, you could have a vert system 3 foot in diameter but 8 foot high and fill it with 300 plants have 10 of these in one room......ya get the idea? If not here is a pic to explain the major benefit of space improvement.
As you can see you would be improving your space by 135%! That's a huge increase.
i still love flat growing/soil to the end
As you can see their are a few benefits to vertical lighting, Number 1 The majority of the heat produced by the HID is pushed upwards to your exhaust vs the horizontal hood that traps heat and directs it at your plant's. The main advantage to this is that you can put your plants closer to your bulb's without worrying about burning them, 1 grower I know can get his plants up to 6" from his 1000w bulb but keeps them back a few more inches due to the buds getting bleached from to much light!!
Number 2 The next benefit vertical growing is that you will be using 360o of your light, you want to absolutely cover the outer diameter of the bulb with plants so barely any light can escape, this will give you the best efficiency you will be blasting your plants with as many lumen's as possible. Compare this method to a horizontal garden, if you look at the diagrams you can see that a massive 75% of the light is reflected thus killing a lot of lumen's in the process lumen's that I'd prefer getting to my plants, and after all less lumen's = less yield and we don't want that now do we!
Benefit Number 3, This next benefit is for space, the amount of space you save by growing is phenomenal, a 600w lamp would be fit for a 4X4 area at very most, and even this is only a low 37.5 watts per square foot. compare this to a vertical set up, you could have a vert system 3 foot in diameter but 8 foot high and fill it with 300 plants have 10 of these in one room......ya get the idea? If not here is a pic to explain the major benefit of space improvement.
As you can see you would be improving your space by 135%! That's a huge increase.
i still love flat growing/soil to the end
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Not a valid comparison....
Excuse the pun, but this isn't a black and white situation. A 135.5% more of 60% less is not valid. And so, back to the caveats of each......
Horizontal lighting and to a much lesser extent vertical lighting takes on dozens of different forms and effectiveness depending on the hood's design, placement of plants, reflective panels etc., but mainly the design of the hood. Gotta compare apples to apples, which Krusty didn't. Ya need to look at Jorge's stuff for an objective approach.
Many years ago Diamond Lights, the most technical and advanced of the plant lighting design companies came up with their ultimate hood, a multi facited hood that was highly reflected and focused allowing the hood to be placed quite a bit farther from the plants which relieved the heat issue while maintaining record lumen output. I think PL took off with the design and still markets the concept. It's a round hood with alot of facits. I used to talk to the techs at Diamond Lights, this was about 15 years ago. They had their own design team, lab, etc. I still have their small horizontal hood and retrofitted the painted gull wing with a specular insert. It is so much more effective than a fancy dancy Sun Systems, that I sold the Sun hood.
UB
jeebuscheebus
Active Member
Cerberus post 250 of thread.
Why has Uncle Ben chosen to ignore it?
Instead he replies to numerous other posts.
Uncle Ben YOU are the one posting theories!
Add my vote for Vert!
Why has Uncle Ben chosen to ignore it?
Instead he replies to numerous other posts.
Uncle Ben YOU are the one posting theories!
Add my vote for Vert!
genuity
Well-Known Member
that is why i posted it,cause i know i am not the only one that see's somthing wrong with this,i am a horizontal man
,and have been for sometime,just looking for some info on the subject,and that is what i found,i do not think 135.5% is right
,keep it horizontal
cerberus
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if this reads like an attack after the last exchange but I am sincerely curios. How does your post explain why Krustys diagrams are not valid? As I read and view the diagrams, they compare in, basic terms, how the light is emitted from any generic bulb and how effective that illumination is to a growing square footage. It does this to show how the different bulb placements give you more or less square footage to grow in. I just dont see how diamonds efficient hoods factor into the validity of the diagram, are you saying that with those hoods you can grow a bigger footprint? Seriously, help me understand.
RickWhite
Well-Known Member
Those diagrams are a joke. Do you guys have any understanding of the physics of light and of basic geometry and trigonometry? First, read up on what a parabola does. Second, understand that when light reflects of an object, the angle of incidence = the angle of reflection. In other words, the pool ball comes off the cushion at the same angle as it hits it. Few if any rays will ever leave the arc tube, pass through the glass of the bulb, hit the reflector and return to the arc tube. And we already covered the additional area issue.
As for plant shading - yes, if you have a few small, sparsely grown plants inside a room covered in Mylar and in pots you can turn, you can manage to get light to all sides. But assuming you are doing a dense grow, with bushy plants, this will never happen. Light simply does not penetrate through one side of a bush through to the other with any appreciable brightness. And the stems will not make a 180 degree turn and grow to the front of the plant.
Really, I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend - it is not rocket science. Get yourself a cone shaped cup or an ice cream cone and shine a flashlight straight down on top of it. You will notice the whole cone illuminated 360 deg around with only the area underneath shaded. Then shine the flashlight from the side and look at the opposite side. Notice that a full 50% is shaded.
Now sure, when you grow 5-10 scrawny plants around a 600W HPS, light will make it through to the back side. Try growing 24-36 plants under a single 600W HPS and see if any light gets through.
Fact is, branches grow laterally 360 deg around the plant, not 180 deg toward the side your light is on. Top lighting lights the plant 360 deg around, side lighting only 180 deg. If you have a thick canopy, 50% of your plant will receive no light. There is no two ways about it.
Have a look at this:
http://www.adjustawings.com/index.htm
As for plant shading - yes, if you have a few small, sparsely grown plants inside a room covered in Mylar and in pots you can turn, you can manage to get light to all sides. But assuming you are doing a dense grow, with bushy plants, this will never happen. Light simply does not penetrate through one side of a bush through to the other with any appreciable brightness. And the stems will not make a 180 degree turn and grow to the front of the plant.
Really, I don't see why this is so hard to comprehend - it is not rocket science. Get yourself a cone shaped cup or an ice cream cone and shine a flashlight straight down on top of it. You will notice the whole cone illuminated 360 deg around with only the area underneath shaded. Then shine the flashlight from the side and look at the opposite side. Notice that a full 50% is shaded.
Now sure, when you grow 5-10 scrawny plants around a 600W HPS, light will make it through to the back side. Try growing 24-36 plants under a single 600W HPS and see if any light gets through.
Fact is, branches grow laterally 360 deg around the plant, not 180 deg toward the side your light is on. Top lighting lights the plant 360 deg around, side lighting only 180 deg. If you have a thick canopy, 50% of your plant will receive no light. There is no two ways about it.
Have a look at this:
http://www.adjustawings.com/index.htm
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
FR light does get thru, and some R.
If you never rotate your plants, the branches will all turn, and remain turned, towards the light source.
cerberus, if you don't understand how a lamp radiates, then I can't help you. I tried to explain how a well designed hood collects, concentrates, and focuses light and even made a point of how Diamond Lights perfected it. Krusty did not take such issues into consideration, just posted his bogus graphics. I've studied this and posted links to lighting issues until there is no tomorrow. Perhaps you old enough to remember OG remember my LOR thread and links.
AGAIN, get Jorge's book, perhaps it can help.
Caveat emptor,
UB