vertical growing

myxedup

Active Member
I couldn't follow that.

Circumference has nothing to do with it. Did you mean diameter? To figure your area you use diameter or twice the radius X 3.14 X height. Or 3.14(diameter)(height)

A diameter of 4.1' gives you 5,000LUX at 2' high. At 7.7' diameter you would have 3,000LUX. That would give 48.3' square at 2' high. At 3' high this would give you 5' diameter.

At 5' you get a 15' circumference 3' high so you could grow about 7, 3' high plants. If you get 5oz per plant you will hit 1g/Watt.
We are determining the surface area of your intended canopy and as the surface area of a cylinder is Circumference X Height, you do need to know the circumference.

In regards to the comment someone made about the grow space, this vertical grow will in theory take place in an 11' tall room and not with trees. I would love to give more details on the grow including plans and all but I tend to be a touch bit paranoid considering how many times growers have gotten nailed by Big Brother.

What i will say though is that the grow area will be a cylinder wrapped around the lights with the area underneath the bulbs being used for fans trained on the foilage and the area above to evac air. The plants will grow to within about 9" of ceiling.

Also, the reason i will be using 1k lamps as opposed to 600's or anything else is bc 8" Cooltubes are around 20" in length and I need to have the largest radius possible in order to be able to get in and work with the plants.

This grow will in no way be like the screen grows that I've seen from Jig and a few others simply bc i don't intend to train my plants that much or veg them that long although there is much to be said in regards to the effectiveness of there grows. They are quite effective but not what I'm going for.

I really wish that I could give more detailed plans and such but even being in a medical state doesn't make me feel safe enough to present this to an open-to-all audience.

Happy growing though all
 

jigfresh

Well-Known Member
Circumference has nothing to do with it. Did you mean diameter? To figure your area you use diameter or twice the radius X 3.14 X height. Or 3.14(diameter)(height)
Circumference = 3.14(diameter)

myxedup said:
i don't intend to train my plants that much or veg them that long although there is much to be said in regards to the effectiveness of there grows.
About the effectiveness of my grow... I will not do this monster plant deal again. The veg time is too long for things to be worth it. After trying a go round on vert, I feel like the real key is a 'row' of plants per light. I have my two lights, so I'm going to use two rows or levels next time. Shorten the total grow time. I will say it has been fun as hell... just not the best use of time and energy.
 

myxedup

Active Member
I couldn't follow that.

Circumference has nothing to do with it. Did you mean diameter? To figure your area you use diameter or twice the radius X 3.14 X height. Or 3.14(diameter)(height)

A diameter of 4.1' gives you 5,000LUX at 2' high. At 7.7' diameter you would have 3,000LUX. That would give 48.3' square at 2' high. At 3' high this would give you 5' diameter.

At 5' you get a 15' circumference 3' high so you could grow about 7, 3' high plants. If you get 5oz per plant you will hit 1g/Watt.
Rick, just reread your post and if you double check your math against mine, you'll get the same results. Different formula's but same results. Main difference is that I was trying to figure out my radius as that will allow me to figure out my final room setup/finish layout.

Only thing else worth mentioning right now, is that i won't be shooting for 3' plants nor will i be aiming for 5 oz per plant. If you look at Heath's grow again, it is the only one here on RIU that i've found that seems to get as close to what is planned as I've come across.

I'm not interested in screens or doing soil grows on shelves. My plants will be at 45* and I will tell you now that my layout is untested and as such could lead to complete failure from 1 thing or another but I'm interested in total efficiency and I will keep focusing energy on this until I'm satisfied with the results. Something that may never happen even if i were to get something outrageous like 2.5 or 3g/watt because then I'll have to start messing with hormones and such to see if that could increase efficiency.

It's a vicious path that I must take but when your mind won't shut down and you're currently out of meds, not much else you can do.
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member
three 600's. no reflective material other than the windows. pulled 2 pounds. i suck indoors so this was one of my better grows. :-P


are you sure thats only 2 lb

looks like that would be way more then 2lbs dry
not saying your lieing just saying you could be mistaken

if i had to guess i would say thats more like 4 - 5 lb dry
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
The formula of 2Pi(r) does = circumference, I just never seen anyone start with circumference. So yes, either way works.

As for top lighting Vs side lighting. Plants do not grow up in response to light, they do it in response to gravity. In addition they will bend toward the light.

A plant will generally be almost as wide as tall. The X-mass tree shape is designed to put the lower branches out beyond the higher ones to avoid shading. Plants grown indoors are usually over crowded and that is why the lower branches are shaded. Growing short plants and not over crowding them is a way to avoid this.

When lighting one side, there is only one way to avoid shading the opposite side and that is to force each Branch from behind to the sides. Aside from that you will have growth on only one side of your plant which is again nearly as wide as it is tall in most cases.

Regardless of how you see it, what matters at the end of the day is how big of a canopy of dense bud you can create and how little wasted growth you have under or behind the canopy. Whether or not this is vertical, horizontal or upside down doesn't matter. But the fact is that plants do grow according to gravity and have evolved to use lighting from overhead, not from the side. Given a lone plant with a natural shape, the plant will receive more light where it needs it from over head.
 

jigfresh

Well-Known Member
Given a lone plant with a natural shape, the plant will receive more light where it needs it from over head.
I beleive this statemet depends on how the plant was raised. If the plant was somewhat in a corner with light only hitting it from the side I beleive it would develope different than if it was lit from above.

I don't think it's as simple and cut and dry as you make it seem.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
I beleive this statemet depends on how the plant was raised. If the plant was somewhat in a corner with light only hitting it from the side I beleive it would develope different than if it was lit from above.

I don't think it's as simple and cut and dry as you make it seem.
It's not cut and dry, great point. Master gardeners understand the conventions and caveats that go with every style of growing. For example, everyone thinks sativas need bookoos of light. Check out my Dalat that sat on the perimeter of the garden most of its lonnnnnnnnnng life.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-9.html
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
I beleive this statemet depends on how the plant was raised. If the plant was somewhat in a corner with light only hitting it from the side I beleive it would develope different than if it was lit from above.

I don't think it's as simple and cut and dry as you make it seem.
While Cannabis leaves will turn toward the light (phototropism) the stems grow mostly according to gravity (gravitropism). The stems will bend some but this is small compared to their upward growth. You can see this in the pictures posted. If you set your plants sideways, they would turn and grow upward even in a vert.

And come to think of it, while you can virtually eliminate growth under the canopy in a horizontal by growing short plants, growth behind the canopy in a vert will always equal the growth in front - no way around it except to grow super high numbers of tiny plants.
 

That 5hit

Well-Known Member

for you guys that grow like this have you thought of adding 2 -3 more rows of plant
why only have 1 row
the penitrating ablity of a hps is stronger then 1 row
 

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Redeflect

Well-Known Member
If stems grow mostly according to gavity as you say then all the more reason why vertical would be even better... despite the plant getting lighting from the side, it would still grow upward which would increase its footprint. Bottom branches need to stretch a LOT to increase the plants footprint and when buds grow upward they aren't increasing their footprint at all. Lighting from the side permits the plant to grow "outward" if what you are saying is correct while the buds will still be forming towards the light. This eliminates some of the need to train the plant and increases surface area faster than with horizontal while also removing much of the need to move the light farther, since the plant isn't growing toward the light. In the end, gravitropism would benefit the plant more than impair it.

Also when you came to think of it, you were incorrect... all of the branches grow towards the light so the branches on the other side would be much closer to the stem than the branches closer to the light. You keep imagining a plant lighted from above growing in a vertical and that is the wrong way to imagine the plants. Plants do not grow cut and dry into "christmas tree shapes".

Regardless of what you say, unless you have a heavy indica the plant will be taller than it is wide. Or, unless you train it... which anyone could do with a vert just as much as a horizontal. I'd much rather have my plants growing on one side in abundance as apposed to only a little bit on top and barely on the bottom... vertical lighting allows a more even canopy. In the end it doesn't matter how big a plants footprint is anyway, if the footprint is smaller it means you just need more plants. You are arguing vertical for the sake of argueing it simply because you don't like it. Stop coming up with excuses why it is "unnatural" and at a disadvantage because your arguments are null compared to the lighting efficiency.

Facts don't lie and the facts are that no matter how many invalid arguments you make, vertical growing gives greater light efficiency and grows greater g/w ratios... don't let your personal vendetta against things "unnatural" impede the thinking of others and distract them with frivolous arguments.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
The fact is a full 50% of your grow will always be shaded and produce no growth in a vert. That is an undeniable fact. By contrast a horizontal grow with short plants produces no shaded areas if done right. I have seen side lit plants and was heartbroken to see half of the plant dead and wasted - whole branches that would have given huge colas.

Cannabis stems grow up and out 360 degrees around with the bottom branches sticking out further to catch light. If you don't crowd your plants, an overhead light illuminates 100% of the plant - a vert at best can light 50%. Look at the shadow each casts. Top light = small circle on the ground, side light = an area the size of the entire plant. Are you getting the picture?

With a horizontal, I can make sure there is no wasted sub-canopy growth by growing short plants. No wasted growth = efficiency. With a vert, you can not do this because half of your plant is shaded pretty much always. There simply isn't a way around this except to grow massive numbers of dwarf plants with no veg time that are just so small that the light goes through them.

Really, if you can't see how a plant is naturally shaped to use light from overhead you don't have very good spacial perception.
 

400Whps

Active Member
If stems grow mostly according to gavity as you say then all the more reason why vertical would be even better... despite the plant getting lighting from the side, it would still grow upward which would increase its footprint. Bottom branches need to stretch a LOT to increase the plants footprint and when buds grow upward they aren't increasing their footprint at all. Lighting from the side permits the plant to grow "outward" if what you are saying is correct while the buds will still be forming towards the light. This eliminates some of the need to train the plant and increases surface area faster than with horizontal while also removing much of the need to move the light farther, since the plant isn't growing toward the light. In the end, gravitropism would benefit the plant more than impair it.

Also when you came to think of it, you were incorrect... all of the branches grow towards the light so the branches on the other side would be much closer to the stem than the branches closer to the light. You keep imagining a plant lighted from above growing in a vertical and that is the wrong way to imagine the plants. Plants do not grow cut and dry into "christmas tree shapes".

Regardless of what you say, unless you have a heavy indica the plant will be taller than it is wide. Or, unless you train it... which anyone could do with a vert just as much as a horizontal. I'd much rather have my plants growing on one side in abundance as apposed to only a little bit on top and barely on the bottom... vertical lighting allows a more even canopy. In the end it doesn't matter how big a plants footprint is anyway, if the footprint is smaller it means you just need more plants. You are arguing vertical for the sake of argueing it simply because you don't like it. Stop coming up with excuses why it is "unnatural" and at a disadvantage because your arguments are null compared to the lighting efficiency.

Facts don't lie and the facts are that no matter how many invalid arguments you make, vertical growing gives greater light efficiency and grows greater g/w ratios... don't let your personal vendetta against things "unnatural" impede the thinking of others and distract them with frivolous arguments.
sounds worthy to me
 

bigtomatofarmer

Well-Known Member
The fact is a full 50% of your grow will always be shaded and produce no growth in a vert. That is an undeniable fact. By contrast a horizontal grow with short plants produces no shaded areas if done right. I have seen side lit plants and was heartbroken to see half of the plant dead and wasted - whole branches that would have given huge colas.

Cannabis stems grow up and out 360 degrees around with the bottom branches sticking out further to catch light. If you don't crowd your plants, an overhead light illuminates 100% of the plant - a vert at best can light 50%. Look at the shadow each casts. Top light = small circle on the ground, side light = an area the size of the entire plant. Are you getting the picture?

With a horizontal, I can make sure there is no wasted sub-canopy growth by growing short plants. No wasted growth = efficiency. With a vert, you can not do this because half of your plant is shaded pretty much always. There simply isn't a way around this except to grow massive numbers of dwarf plants with no veg time that are just so small that the light goes through them.

Really, if you can't see how a plant is naturally shaped to use light from overhead you don't have very good spacial perception.
That is one of the worst arguments yet. Saying that 50% of the plant is always shaded and will not grow is ridiculous. And "half the plant is dead and wasted" :confused:?? No way man, you've NEVER seen half a plant dead and wasted because of vertical growing. NEVER.

And saying you can only grow small dwarfed plants with a vertical light is false propaganda, at best. If you dont want to grow vertically then dont. To each his own. But spreading bad info and lying about what you've seen is not cool.

Look at these pictures and tell me they are "half dead and wasted"










 

Redeflect

Well-Known Member
You are completely wrong Rickwhite... and when I grow plants with horizontal lighting i see a LOT of shade in the middle of the plant, the only part of the plant that gets lighting is the top and a small part of the outside as the plant gets wider, the inside growth gets NO direct lighting because it is shaded by the leaves above it. Stop making foolish arguments about partial lighting because we're looking at vertical pictures and those plants look full of growth to me. In fact they look saturated with more light than many horizontal grows I've seen. You can't say they catch no light but also are all in shade, where does the light go? You can't have your argument one way and then the other, either they use a bunch of light and other parts are in the shade, or the plant catches no light and the entire plant is being lit. Light doesn't just disappear magically before it reaches other parts of a plant. Regardless of whatever fact less and erroneous proof you try to bring up, it doesn't escape the fact that VERTICAL PLANTS RECEIVE MORE LIGHTING. If you're so intent on not having "wasted growth" then trim the back side of the plant as it grows just like you would trim the undergrowth of a plant canopy of a horizontal grow that is IN THE SHADE. You're a fool if you think that a normal plant doesn't shade itself.

You keep making the point that if you look at a plant in a vertical setup then the leaves on the other side of the light are in the shade, well guess what? If you look at the damn bottom of a plant in a horizontal setup that has leaves above it then it is receiving no light either. The only reason you make the foolish assumption that a normally grown plant is receiving 100% light is because you're ignoring the inside and bottom of the plant that is completely shaded.

Vertical lighting is the exact same as turning a regular plant on its side under a horizontal (lst). The only difference is rather than turning the plant to the side, you turn the light to the side. The plant is still being lit from the side in both cases. If anything, vertical growing is better because you do not have to consistently train the plant.

Are you saying a plant that has been LST grows worse than a normal plant? Weird, wonder why people do it then. Perhaps, when you LST your plant receives more lighting because it is growing perpendicular to the light? What do you know... it does. One of the advantages with vertical is that rather than bending the plant so that growth is outward, the plant automatically grows outward(in relation to the light). I have NEVER seen an LST plant where someone complained about only 1/2 the plant being lit, and if they did all they had to do was trim the undergrowth. I have definitely seen many complains about "naturally grown" plants shading their lower growth and forming almost no buds at the bottom. If you want to make a point based on ignorance, then trim the damn part of the plant facing away from the light and stop complaining about the "inefficiency" of vertical growing which has proven to be more effective at lighting a plant. Just because you may not LST, Scrog, Supercrop, or Fim YOUR plants doesn't mean they don't work far better than a normally grown plant for increasing plant growth. Natural isn't always better.

Your points are nothing but hypocritical, factless, and purely ignorant of established growing techniques. Now, stop coming up with more foolish points that have to be proven wrong.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
That is one of the worst arguments yet.
And stealing my photos sucks just to make your case witness photo #3. This is my plant as posted before...... grown under horizontal lighting. DO NOT pass it off as being yours. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider this act as another "stoner mistake".





Uncle Ben
 

bigtomatofarmer

Well-Known Member
And stealing my photos sucks just to make your case witness photo #3. This is my plant as posted before...... grown under horizontal lighting. DO NOT pass it off as being yours. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider this act as another "stoner mistake".





Uncle Ben
Thank You!! My point exactly. Im glad you caught it because Im not sure anybody else would have.

It wasnt a stoners mistake, I puposefully added your (horizontal) picture to show that vertically grown plants look the exact same as horizontally grown plants. I hope we can get past the myth about vertically grown plants being unhealthy and half dead.

The difference is you can fit more plants around a vertical light than you can under a horizontal light. Case and point! Thank you

Edit: I removed your picture from my original post. Id also like to point out that every picture I posted was already posted in this thread by somebody else. Even though many vertically grown plants have been posted I keep hearing the same "oh they look so unhealthy" b.s. over and over. Its untrue and needs to stop, that is all :peace:bongsmilie
 
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