Vegan Organics Aka Veganics With Matt Rize
- Thread starter Matt Rize
- Start date
NightbirdX
Well-Known Member
looking good matt. I think Cali may be calling her long lost son home if these dipshits that run things in the midwest keep it up. I miss the Sierra Nevadas a lot anyways. It isnt something you get outta your system easily, kinda like a trailer park. 
and bluej- I am cutting out vega at around day 7-10. in week 1 they get 25ml vega, then water. in week 2 they get the same, but I think im gonna add 10ml budswell here as a phos boost, the next 4 weeks get 30ml flores at start of week, and on waterings they get 5ml flores bumped up to 20 mls as needed through week 6 and then I taper off to finish. 1 week flush, anymore is kinda a waste of yield.
and bluej- I am cutting out vega at around day 7-10. in week 1 they get 25ml vega, then water. in week 2 they get the same, but I think im gonna add 10ml budswell here as a phos boost, the next 4 weeks get 30ml flores at start of week, and on waterings they get 5ml flores bumped up to 20 mls as needed through week 6 and then I taper off to finish. 1 week flush, anymore is kinda a waste of yield.
Wolverine97
Well-Known Member
Hahaha, kinda like a trailer park... good stuff man. I've always thought you seemed like a cali kinda guy, but you can't leave the mitt broham, sorry. Back on topic.looking good matt. I think Cali may be calling her long lost son home if these dipshits that run things in the midwest keep it up. I miss the Sierra Nevadas a lot anyways. It isnt something you get outta your system easily, kinda like a trailer park.
and bluej- I am cutting out vega at around day 7-10. in week 1 they get 25ml vega, then water. in week 2 they get the same, but I think im gonna add 10ml budswell here as a phos boost, the next 4 weeks get 30ml flores at start of week, and on waterings they get 5ml flores bumped up to 20 mls as needed through week 6 and then I taper off to finish. 1 week flush, anymore is kinda a waste of yield.
+ WitchDoctor +
Well-Known Member
Lol at the trailer park joke, my mom had a midlife crisis and moved back into one haha.
Southern Oregon seems like a better option lately than Cali, at least lately.... if we leave MI that's probably where we're headed. Might even be able to grow hemp for bricks or fuel!
New place looks awesome Matt, looks like lots and lots of work too! See ya in a few MONTHS lol.
Southern Oregon seems like a better option lately than Cali, at least lately.... if we leave MI that's probably where we're headed. Might even be able to grow hemp for bricks or fuel!
New place looks awesome Matt, looks like lots and lots of work too! See ya in a few MONTHS lol.
Kalyx
Active Member
5ml/ gallon is exactly what I tried on my current run with OGs. Its the first time I've used the Natural BLOOM as part of my KP boost. It seems to have done the job as I see only a few leaves doing the P curl, mostly older lower ones. Biocanna def needs some P help IMO tho. My KP boost is: 1/8tsp Techniflora Seaweed 1-1-16, 5ml Natural BLOOM 0-10-0, and 5-7ml organic Blackstrap Molasses ~0-0-4 per Gallon. Totaling to around 1-11-20 (KP boost = twice the K as P) I ran my KP boost starting at week 3 thru week 5. I alternate food and tea and only add KP boost to my nute waterings. The yield seems down compared to my last OG plants but I can't tell what variable its from. (New mix, vegan nutes, different pruning mostly for solventless hash making 8P, got hot quick here this spring so went from 1000 to 600 midway thru) Have some pics just no time to get em off my camera today.
Dank Raptor I learned (I think from this thread/ Teaming with Microbes) that high P environments can actually hinder certain forms of fungal development. Other than more time for breakdown, facilitated microbial breakdown, why do you feel that this high P product is GOOD for fungal tea?
I use the Glacial Rock and Baseline Humic in my mix. I do put some Baseline in my teas but stopped using the glacial in them (was doing TBL/gal). I like the glacial rock in my mix tho. Great for micros and some also say that it puts our containered plants back in touch with the earth's magnetic fields and hippy whatnots, which I am also into.trichmastaHow bout this...
http://vitallandscaping.com/index.ph...d=37&Itemid=22
This is the newest addition to my tea's at 2 tbsp/gal
In my teas for micros I use kelp (of course), a product called FULVEX by botanicare (omri listed fulvic/micros) which I LOVE (two bottles in one) and have used progress earths TONIC product which is $$$pricey but also contains all the biodynamic preps in addition to two salt sources of natural micros and trace elements.
Love and Light. Hope everyone had a good 420 and didn't do too much impulse buying at all the industry sales pushes! LOL
Matt, if the farm move isn't too much maybe you can shed some light on the P vs. fungal growth thing for us. NICE spread we are all jealous! 'cept the moving part, my back hurts enough just lifting out my 5 gallon bags! It will be worth all the work for high end outdoor tho! cant wait to hear about it on the HUGE VEGANIC PLANTS thread. The SUN for the win!
CaliWorthington
Well-Known Member
Congrats on the new ranch Matt. Looks perfect there. I can see why you tore down your sh!t in the city.
I haven't gotten around to setting up that compost tumbler to make a proper veganic mix yet, so I just did a run in some crappy soil (happy frog/roots organic mix). Teaming with gnats, but they're mostly dead now. Been feeding with the Bio Canna/Boost, adding in Maxicrop, Ful Humix, Hygrozyme, etc... Now I'm starting to make vermi-tea too.
I just got a few bags of this http://www.ncwgs.com/just_right_xtra.php soil, which would be veganic except for the very last ingredient, Bone Char. It also has Maidenwell Diatomaceous Silica Stone, which supposedly slow releases Silica into the soil. At first I thought there were rocks in the bag, until I Googled it. Some people use that Silica Stone as their entire hydro substrate, instead of Hydroton.
Anyway, I thought you might be interested in the Silica Stone. Or was it already mentioned before I joined the thread?
Fire OG
View attachment 2138409View attachment 2138410
I haven't gotten around to setting up that compost tumbler to make a proper veganic mix yet, so I just did a run in some crappy soil (happy frog/roots organic mix). Teaming with gnats, but they're mostly dead now. Been feeding with the Bio Canna/Boost, adding in Maxicrop, Ful Humix, Hygrozyme, etc... Now I'm starting to make vermi-tea too.
I just got a few bags of this http://www.ncwgs.com/just_right_xtra.php soil, which would be veganic except for the very last ingredient, Bone Char. It also has Maidenwell Diatomaceous Silica Stone, which supposedly slow releases Silica into the soil. At first I thought there were rocks in the bag, until I Googled it. Some people use that Silica Stone as their entire hydro substrate, instead of Hydroton.
Anyway, I thought you might be interested in the Silica Stone. Or was it already mentioned before I joined the thread?
Fire OG
View attachment 2138409View attachment 2138410
+ WitchDoctor +
Well-Known Member
Speaking of hippy dippy and whatnot, do you plant by the lunar cycle Kalyx? I just had a conversation with someone that has me thinking I want to try it lol.I use the Glacial Rock and Baseline Humic in my mix. I do put some Baseline in my teas but stopped using the glacial in them (was doing TBL/gal). I like the glacial rock in my mix tho. Great for micros and some also say that it puts our containered plants back in touch with the earth's magnetic fields and hippy whatnots, which I am also into.
In my teas for micros I use kelp (of course), a product called FULVEX by botanicare (omri listed fulvic/micros) which I LOVE (two bottles in one) and have used progress earths TONIC product which is $$$pricey but also contains all the biodynamic preps in addition to two salt sources of natural micros and trace elements.
Love and Light. Hope everyone had a good 420 and didn't do too much impulse buying at all the industry sales pushes! LOL
Matt, if the farm move isn't too much maybe you can shed some light on the P vs. fungal growth thing for us. NICE spread we are all jealous! 'cept the moving part, my back hurts enough just lifting out my 5 gallon bags! It will be worth all the work for high end outdoor tho! cant wait to hear about it on the HUGE VEGANIC PLANTS thread. The SUN for the win!
And actually, along with P vs. fungal growth, I'd like to see if Matt or anyone else has some insight to share on why so many people lately have been trying to convince me that Cannabis plants prefer a bacterial environment rather than a fungal one. Wouldn't the soil being more bacterial raise the pH? Just doesn't seem right to me.
NightbirdX
Well-Known Member
Ya I like it here, but the people that run it are idiots. But I really at least to take a nice long vacay to cali to recharge my batteries. I need to hit up the mountains, SF area, and so cal. Then I will be good for a bit longer.
Dank Raptor
Active Member
Kalyx, I am more then happy to explain. Teaming with microbes is a great book and I am gonna type whats written on the bottom of page 154 and the top of page 155 in the book.
Molasses (nonsulfured, so as not to kill the microbes) in powdered or liquid form, cane syrup, maple syrup, fruit juices all feed bacteria in tea and increase their populations. Two tablespoons of any of those simple sugars in four of five gallons of water will help bacteria multiply and establish dominance. If you make a bigger brew, add more nutrients in the same proportion: the amount of all added nutrients will vary linearly as you increase the size of your brew. More complex sugars and fish emulsion are also good bacterial food, though both will also support some fungal growth.
To encourage fungal growth in compost teas, add kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts, which not only provide the fungi with nutrient value but also give them surfaces to attach on while they grow.
So there you go. Straight from the book, the soft rock phosphate. (which is what HN BLoom is) is indeed fungal food... and shelter.
NnthStTrls
Well-Known Member
I started this thread. I was interested because I have seen video of a veganics garden and it was fantastic. Then, while reading this Matt guy's writing, the writing took on a voice. This voice was very similar in type to a televangelist or some dude on a cheesy infomercial.
Just thought that was funny.
Just thought that was funny.
Kalyx
Active Member
No I haven't come that far on the journey yet... But I'd bet anybody a gram of veganic OG wax that moon cycle awareness and the dedication to learn about and time plant cycles with nature's cycles will make our favorite crop DANKER at harvest, everything else done correctly and consciously as well. I am a firm believer that even indoor crops are more in touch with higher cycles than modern humans pay attention to. I've grown Four o'clocks indoors under lights and no matter what the light cycle/time of year they opened their flowers at Four DAILY, awesome.
Here's some bookmarks I have on it tho
Lunar Cannabis Article CC
medicinalherbs by the moon
Roots & Harmony (this one is a commercial site but they used to make the weed/moon 18 month calendar to help out timing the cycles)
Lets do it on our outdoor this year!
Thanks DR. (I loathe searching resources and I was a bit lazy on that last post, but it is SUPER important to not be considered 'hot air' online!)
Here I've done a quick search and this is what I am referring to by "certain forms" in my last post my stoner brain meant Mycorrhizae!
http://mining.state.co.us/TechnicalBulletins/MycorrhizaAndSoilPhosphorusLevels.pdf
CO State is HIGHLY trustworthy and they took care of my sick puppy and charged me $0 when I lived up in my favorite state! Anyway heres the gist of it: I highlighted the important stuff with bold and underline (3 sections) couldnt figure out how to do font color changes
But anyways DR, apart from citations for one another; what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies!
Sorry if the huge article quote is too verbose for some... just RIZE UP! and add in some real science (the new religion) to your knowledge base!
Mycorrhiza and soil phosphorus levels
Curtis E. Swift, Ph.D.
Area Extension Agent (Horticulture)
Colorado State University Cooperative Extension
Tri River Area
Introduction:
Mycorrhizae are an integral part of most plants in nature (Giazninazzi et al., 1982)
and occur on 83% of dicotyledonous and 79% of monocotyledonous plant
investigated (Wilcox - 1996). All gymnosperms are reported as being mycorrhizal
(Newman & Reddell, 1987). Infection of the root system of the plant by these fungi
creates a symbiotic (beneficial) relationship between the plant and fungus.
Upon root infection and colonization, mycorrhizal fungi develop an external
mycelium which is a bridge connecting the root with the surrounding soil (Toro et al.
1997). One of the most dramatic effects of infection by mycorrhizal fungi on the host
plant is the increase in phosphorus (P) uptake (Koide, 1991) mainly due to the
capacity of the mycorrhizal fungi to absorb phosphate from soil and transfer it to the
host roots (Asimi, et al. 1980). In addition, mycorrhizal infection results in an
increase in the uptake of copper (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979; Gildon & Tinker,
1983), zinc (Lambert, Baker & Cole, 1979), nickel (Killham & Firestone, 1983), and
chloride and sulphate (Buwalda, Stribley & Tinker, 1983). Mycorrhizae also are
known to reduce problems with pathogens which attack the roots of plants
(Gianinazzi-Pearson & Gianinazzi, 1983).
Influence of Phosphorus on Mycorrhizae:
The benefits listed above are greatest in P-deficient soils and decrease as soil
phosphate levels increase (Schubert & Hayman, 1986).
Very high and very low phosphorus levels may reduce mycorrhizal
infection/colonization (Koide, 1991). It is well established that:
z infection by mycorrhizal fungi is significantly reduced at high soil phosphorus
levels (Amijee et al., 1989; Koide & Li, 1990)
z the addition of phosphate fertilization results in a delay in infection as well as a
decrease in the percentage of infection of roots by mycorrhizae (deMiranda,
Harris & Wild, 1989; Asimi et al., 1989)
z an increase in the level of soil phosphate results in a reduction in
chlamydospore production by the fungus (Menge, et al. 197. These spores
are involved in root infection and spread of the fungus through the soil profile.
Research by Abbott and Robson (1979) concluded that levels of soil phosphorus
greater than that required for plant growth eliminated the development of the
arbuscles of vesicular-arbuscular (VA) types of mycorrhizae. Arbuscles are
structures produced within the host plant cells by the VA mycorrhizae. These
structures are responsible for the transfer of absorbed nutrients from the fungus to
the plant. The arbuscles resemble miniature shrub-like trees (arbuscular = shrub in
Latin). Mosse (1973) reports adding phosphate results in no arbuscles forming.
What levels of P are critical?
When the soil level of bicarbonate-soluble phosphorus exceeded 140 mg kg -1 (140
parts per million) the rate of infection was found to decrease (Amijee et al. 1989).
Abbott and Robson (1977 & 197
ceased to be effective when the soil level of phosphorus reached 133 mg kg -1 [133
parts per million (ppm)]. Schubert and Hayman (1986) found mycorrhizae was no
longer effective when 100 mg or more of P was added per kilogram of soil (100
ppm). Mycorrhizal infection virtually disappeared with the addition of 1.5 grams or
more of mono calcium phosphate per kilogram of soil (Mosse 1973). With small
additions of phosphorus fertilizer, entry points and fungal growth on the root surface
remained normal but arbuscles were small and fewer in number reducing the
effectiveness of the fungus/plant relationship. Other researchers have reported
mycorrhizal infections tend to die out in soils containing or given much phosphorus
(Baylis, 1967; Mosse, 1967). The development of mycorrhizal relationships were
found to be the greatest when soil phosphorus levels were at 50 mg kg -1 (50 ppm)
(Schubert & Hayman, 1986).
Summary and recommendations:
The benefits of mycorrhizae are greatest when soil phosphorus levels are at or
below 50 ppm (50 mg kg -1). Mycorrhizal infection of roots declines above this level
with little if any infection occurring above 100 ppm P even when soil is inoculated
with a mycorrhizae mix.
Prior to inoculating soil with mycorrhizae, a soil test should be conducted. If
phosphorus levels are greater than 50 ppm the addition of mycorrhizae will likely be
ineffective.
The level of phosphorus in the plant also has been shown to influence the
establishment of VA mycorrhizae with high levels inhibiting colonization by
mycorrhizae (Menge, et al. 197
should be avoided when inoculating soil with mycorrhizae.
References:
Abbott, L.K. & Robson, A.D. 1977. Growth stimulation of subterranean clover with
vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizas. Australian Journal of Agricultural Research
28:639-649.
Abbott, L.K. & Robson, A.D. 1978. Growth of subterranean clover in relation to the
formation of endomycorrhizas by introduced and indigenous fungi in a field soil.
New Phytologist 81:575-585.
Abbott, L.K. & Robson, A.D. 1979. A quantitative study on the spores and anatomy
of mycorrhizas formed by a species of Glomus, with special reference to its
taxonomy. Australian Journal of Botany 27:363-375.
Amijee, F., Tinker, P.B. & Stribley, D.P. 1989. The development of endomycorrhizal
root systems. VII. A detailed study of effects of soil phosphorus on colonization.
New Phytologist 111: 435-446.
Asimi, S. Gianinazzi-Pearson, V. & Gianinazzi, S. 1980. Influence of increasing soil
phosphorus levels on interactions between vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae and
Rhizobium in soybeans. Canadian Journal of Botany 58:2200-2205.
Baylis, G.T.S. 1967. Experiments on the ecological significance of phycomycetous
mycorrhizas. New Phytologist 66:231.
Buwalda, J.G., Stribley, D.P. & Tinker, P.B. 1983. Increase uptake of anions by
plants with vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizas. Plant and Soil 71:463-467.
De Miranda, J.C.C., Harris, P.J. & Wild, A. 1989. Effects of soil and plant
phosphorus concentrations on vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae in sorghum plants.
New Phytologist 112:405-410. Gianinazzi-Pearson, S., Gianzinazzi-Pearson, V. and
Trouvelot, A. (editors) 1982. Mycorrhizae, an integral part of plants: biology and
perspectives for their use. INRA-Presse, Paris, France.
Gianinazzi-Pearson, V. & Gianinazzi, S. 1983. The physiology of vesiculararbuscular
mycorrhizal roots. Plant and Soil 71:197-209.
Gildon, A. & Tinker, P.B. 1983. Interactions of vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal
infections and heavy metals in plants. II. The effects of infection on uptake of
copper. New Phytologist 95:263-268.
Guillemin, J.P., Orozco, M.O., Gianinazzi-Pearson, V. & Gianinazzi, S. 1995.
Influence of phosphate fertilization on fungal alkaline phosphotase and succinate
dehydrogenase activities in arbuscular mycorrhizae of soybean and pineapple.
Agriculture, Ecosystems and Environment 53:63-69.
Kilham, K. & Firestone, M.K. 1983. Vesicular arbuscular mycorrhizal mediation of
grass response to acidic and heavy metal depositions. Plant and Soil 72:39-48.
Koide, R.T. & Li, M. 1990. On host regulation of the vesicular-arbuscular
mycorrhizal symbiosis. New Phytologist 114:59-65.
Koide, R.T. 1991. Nutrient supply, nutrient demand and plant response to
mycorrhizal infection. New Phytologist 117:365-386
Lambert, , D.H., Baker, D.E. & Cole, H. 1979. The role of mycorrhizae in the
interactions of phosphorus with zinc, copper and other elements. Soil Science
Society of America Journal. 43:976-980.
Menge, J.A., Steirle, D., Bagy Araj, D.J., Johnson, E.L.V., & Leonard, R.T. 1978.
Phosphorus concentrations in plants responsible for inhibition of mycorrhizal
infection. New Phytologist 80:575-578.
Mosse, B. 1967. Effects of host nutrient status on mycorrhizal infection . Annual
Report of the Rothamsted Experiment Station, p. 79.
Mosse, B. 1973. Plant growth responses to vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizae. IV. In
soil given additional phosphate. New Phytologist 72:127-136.
Newman, E.I. and Rydell, P. 1987. The distribution of mycorrhizas among families
of vascular plants. New Phytologist 106:745-751.
Schuybert, A.& Hayman, D.S. 1978. Plant growth responses to vesicular-arbuscular
mycorrhizae. XVI. Effectiveness of different endophytes at different levels of soil
phosphate. New Phytologist 103:79-80.
Toro, M., Azcon, R. & Barea, J. 1997. Improvement of arbuscular mycorrhizae
development by inoculation of soil with phosphate-solubilizing rhizobacteria to
improve rock phosphate bioavailability (32P) and nutrient cycling. Applied and
Environmental Microbiology. Nov, 1997. pages 4408-4412.
Wilcox, H.E. 1996. Mycorrhizae. In: Plant Roots: the hidden half - second edition.
Waisel, Y. Eshel, A & Kafkafi, U. (eds.) Marcel Decker, Inc.
to the Trees Home Page
Placed on the web December 9, 1999
Last updated: 01/26/2003 14:29:57
Comments on this page should be addressed to Dr. Curtis E. Swift, Area Extension
Agent, Horticulture
Colorado State Cooperative Extension
2775 US Hwy 50, Grand Junction, CO. 81503
voice: 970-244-1834
fax: 970-244-1700
Dank Raptor
Active Member
In the first paragraph the article states that Mycorrhizae are responsible for a big portion of a plants phosphorus uptake. We all agree with that. However, the article says nothing about soft rock phosphate. Instead it talks about mono calcium phosphate. Which is phosphate rock that is treated with phosphoric or sulfuric acid. (chemical fertilizer)
Later it states that mycorrhizae levels are decreased with the addition of phosphate fertilizer. This is because the symbiotic relationship the fungus has with the plant and the naturally occuring phosphorus is destroyed. The plant needs less and less mycorrhizae for uptake because the relationship is being interfered with chemicals.
In summary, soft rock phosphate is an organic form of phosphorus that is not instanly available to your plants. It promotes fungal growth because it is necessary for your plants to break it down. On the other hand, phosphorus fertilizer bypasses the relationship required by the fungi in order for your plants to receive it. Therefore mycorrhizae population is decreased with chemical phosphate but increased with soft rock phosphate.
Later it states that mycorrhizae levels are decreased with the addition of phosphate fertilizer. This is because the symbiotic relationship the fungus has with the plant and the naturally occuring phosphorus is destroyed. The plant needs less and less mycorrhizae for uptake because the relationship is being interfered with chemicals.
- Mycorrhizal infection virtually disappeared with the addition of 1.5 grams or
more of mono calcium phosphate per kilogram of soil (Mosse 1973). With small
additions of phosphorus fertilizer, entry points and fungal growth on the root surface
remained normal but arbuscles were small and fewer in number reducing the
effectiveness of the fungus/plant relationship. Other researchers have reported
mycorrhizal infections tend to die out in soils containing or given much phosphorus
(Baylis, 1967; Mosse, 1967). The development of mycorrhizal relationships were
found to be the greatest when soil phosphorus levels were at 50 mg kg -1 (50 ppm)
In summary, soft rock phosphate is an organic form of phosphorus that is not instanly available to your plants. It promotes fungal growth because it is necessary for your plants to break it down. On the other hand, phosphorus fertilizer bypasses the relationship required by the fungi in order for your plants to receive it. Therefore mycorrhizae population is decreased with chemical phosphate but increased with soft rock phosphate.
blacktourmaline
Member
Nightbird- QUOTE"I have heard of people using Humboldt Natural Bloom as a bloom booster. Anyone have any experience with this? I was thinking maybe of adding some of this on the watering day earlier in the bloom phase until I reach full swing with Flores. How is this used? Would 5ml/gal 1x a week and adjust from there, be about right?[/QUOTE]
Natural Bloom has always worked great for me(alone 10ml-15ml gal ) and even ontop of flores(5-10ml gal), Lots of calcium so depending on your water source you have to be careful. Mag, is very crucial too with veganics.
Natural Bloom has always worked great for me(alone 10ml-15ml gal ) and even ontop of flores(5-10ml gal), Lots of calcium so depending on your water source you have to be careful. Mag, is very crucial too with veganics.
Kalyx
Active Member
DR thanks for more info on P vs myco.
I think of it a bit differently I guess. This may be drastic oversimplification but here goes. Its like predator/prey population graphs in biology. As the prey curve goes up so does the predator curve just slightly delayed on the time axis. Once there are a threshold number of predators the prey graph tops out and the curve goes back down, mirrored later in time by the predator population curve going back down.
I think that this too is the case with P (P is P the Rgroups really dont matter, especially if we are all gardening organically and no mono calcium P will be applied) and myco. In the paragraph above my last bold and underline, the article I posted stated that even foliar P application caused less myco activity on the roots, why? Keep in mind myco is a symbiont with our plant. If the plant already has enough P uptake without them it will not nourish the myco it doesn't need as much because its P appetite is being fulfilled. So if the plant is getting adequate P, IMO it won't nurture its myco bennies and "waste" energy there. In the above analogy the myco is the predators and they will dwindle as the prey (root exudates for myco) stop being produced by a host plant which has all the P (no matter what form its in) it needs. Make sense?
Another tangential and separate point: There is a substantial difference in soft rock phosphate compared to Humboldt's Natural BLOOM. Which I think is what I got caught up on in your tea comments, so I started asking my questions... (about which I'm still wondering, I'll explain)
What I wanna know from your real world experience is why Natural BLOOM is good for the fungal tea? Whether in your opinion it is better for fungus in the tea. IMO its not because of what the fungi do compared to what the Humboldt Nute factory processes do. In my understanding (can't grab my bottle now bc my daughter is asleep in my lap) the nute company starts with soft rock phosphate but THEY do the processing that you infer is the job of our myco in our amended living organic soils. The COMPANY breaks down the rock and chelates the P with kelp, yucca?, and probably nitric acid, etc.
1. Do you consider the Natural BLOOM a P fertilizer, or a liquid soft rock phosphate?
My thoughts are since its chelated it will act more as P fertilizer from the article as far as root availability and then MAY convince the plant to nurture its myco bennies less, or not very well at all if its getting all its P from a chelated liquid source which IS readily available.
2. Do we care about this issue, or is myco dieoff a sacrifice you are willing to make to present more (overrated) P to the plant?
That is why I only topped out at 5ml/gallon Natural BLOOM and ran my KP boost only weeks 3-5, and reinnoculate with whole spore mycos after my last KP boost watering, so my mycos would be present and strong thru the final important weeks of resin production. This issue also makes me happy to not be adding high P guanos to my mix if they were working to stunt one of my most important bennies from reaching its potential to make my roots healthier and max out resin quality. This is also part of why I do a KP boost (2xK as P) for my bloom boost as well, P is overrated, what they really need is high K indoors, we are not in the ground where P leaches away so fast, our roots reach the bottom of our containers so we dont need to load up P like the outdoor growers do. I believe that sometimes less is more, especially with organics and utmost quality as THE goal.
I think of it a bit differently I guess. This may be drastic oversimplification but here goes. Its like predator/prey population graphs in biology. As the prey curve goes up so does the predator curve just slightly delayed on the time axis. Once there are a threshold number of predators the prey graph tops out and the curve goes back down, mirrored later in time by the predator population curve going back down.
I think that this too is the case with P (P is P the Rgroups really dont matter, especially if we are all gardening organically and no mono calcium P will be applied) and myco. In the paragraph above my last bold and underline, the article I posted stated that even foliar P application caused less myco activity on the roots, why? Keep in mind myco is a symbiont with our plant. If the plant already has enough P uptake without them it will not nourish the myco it doesn't need as much because its P appetite is being fulfilled. So if the plant is getting adequate P, IMO it won't nurture its myco bennies and "waste" energy there. In the above analogy the myco is the predators and they will dwindle as the prey (root exudates for myco) stop being produced by a host plant which has all the P (no matter what form its in) it needs. Make sense?
Another tangential and separate point: There is a substantial difference in soft rock phosphate compared to Humboldt's Natural BLOOM. Which I think is what I got caught up on in your tea comments, so I started asking my questions... (about which I'm still wondering, I'll explain)
So I get it that the rock dust known as 'soft rock phosphate' will present for mineralization P, many micros, usually Ca, and possibly more depending on its source, as well as provide a physical medium for them to occupy. This makes sense to me to boost up a fungal tea. (What we learned from your teaming with crobes quotes, thanks for digging em up)
What I wanna know from your real world experience is why Natural BLOOM is good for the fungal tea? Whether in your opinion it is better for fungus in the tea. IMO its not because of what the fungi do compared to what the Humboldt Nute factory processes do. In my understanding (can't grab my bottle now bc my daughter is asleep in my lap) the nute company starts with soft rock phosphate but THEY do the processing that you infer is the job of our myco in our amended living organic soils. The COMPANY breaks down the rock and chelates the P with kelp, yucca?, and probably nitric acid, etc.
So now I've distilled my questions better. I think I already have your answer but ill ask again.
1. Do you consider the Natural BLOOM a P fertilizer, or a liquid soft rock phosphate?
My thoughts are since its chelated it will act more as P fertilizer from the article as far as root availability and then MAY convince the plant to nurture its myco bennies less, or not very well at all if its getting all its P from a chelated liquid source which IS readily available.
2. Do we care about this issue, or is myco dieoff a sacrifice you are willing to make to present more (overrated) P to the plant?
That is why I only topped out at 5ml/gallon Natural BLOOM and ran my KP boost only weeks 3-5, and reinnoculate with whole spore mycos after my last KP boost watering, so my mycos would be present and strong thru the final important weeks of resin production. This issue also makes me happy to not be adding high P guanos to my mix if they were working to stunt one of my most important bennies from reaching its potential to make my roots healthier and max out resin quality. This is also part of why I do a KP boost (2xK as P) for my bloom boost as well, P is overrated, what they really need is high K indoors, we are not in the ground where P leaches away so fast, our roots reach the bottom of our containers so we dont need to load up P like the outdoor growers do. I believe that sometimes less is more, especially with organics and utmost quality as THE goal.
Dank Raptor
Active Member
Kalyx
Active Member
Soft Rock Phosphate should be available at any nursery etc. Its getting more expensive because all the easy to mine reserves are gone and now the rock is sourced mostly in countries that don't like USA extracting all their wealth. I can't believe your grow shop doesn't carry it with their other granular amendments, their loss if you have to buy at a nursery. Which is what I'd do if you care to do a side by side vs. Natural BLOOM, I think its like $25ish a bag where I've bought in the past. Here is a link with tons of details about peak Phosphorus:
http://www.soilassociation.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=eeGPQJORrkw=
So based on the info in above link it is important to me to learn to grow nice plants without this industrial (mining) input. Hence veganics and getting our P from plants that are good at concentrating it in their biochemistry. I think a lot have mentioned comfrey for this.
Now to the meat of your P questions this article sums it up good:
http://staging.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=464&yearVar=2009&issueVar=August
First some qualifying info on Erik. The guy is very knowledgable and educated and from reading his stuff I believe he knows whats up as far as why Max Yield and the whole industry exists - to grow cannabis. That said he has also worked for Advanced Nutrients (AN) as a pitch guy, so take what he says with healthy skepticism as well, he may just be pushing Hammerhead bloom booster lol. However, the science that he and AN mention goes beyond their marketing machine I'm pretty sure.
To sum it up they are questioning the old advice (Jorge, Ed, Mel, etc) to hit em P with no mercy. This matters in 2 respects: 1.) Our plants will be healthier given better nutrition, more balanced to their needs. 2.) We can avoid our wallets hurting from buying all these high P products whose price will continue to rise given the global P scenario.
To sum up a conversation I had with my GH rep a while back. We were talking about organics vs. synthetics age old yield controversy. He mentioned that its harder to get crazy high P concentrations with organic products (GO, etc). He told me that they did tests in Cali on P and basically they concluded that P is a stressor, and that is why cannabis responds favorably to high dose applications; cause its a weed and a little positive stress just kicks it into high gear! So if anyone using GO was complaining about lower yields and didn't mind a little synth in there heres what their tests revealed. The best synth boost (and conveniently a GH product) to use on top of GO based on their Cali test was liquid Kool Bloom 0-10-10. Interestingly tho he said for the best yield increase in the test the 0-10-10 was applied only twice; once in week 3 and once in week 5. Doing this grew plants that were outyielding ones that had been given the 0-10-10 all the way thru. The reason they hypothesized was that the 2 applications were positive stressors which the plant pushed through with zest, instead of being constantly stressed throughout all of bloom (did their myco stress too much?). He reported the plants given 0-10-10 twice yielded 10-15% more dry weight at the end of the test compared to the straight GO line without the 0-10-10.
So getting back to nutrient ratios for indoor cannabis check this out:
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181405
Look at the total above ground part of the second graph down. I don't think this counts the roots but its interesting info anyways. There is less P than Ca and even Mg!
I'm pretty sure that this 'new' info has just come out based on better tech to analyze the samples. I think they just burn the plant material and analyze the ashes (volunteers for the first part anyone? hehe). So nowadays with medical cannabis researchers can finally do this with our favorite plant and maybe even different varieties will yield different results and allow those in the know to REALLY dial in their feedings.
Getting back to our conversation:
What I'm saying is that maybe just P itself (organic or synth based) if over-applied could lessen the plants interest in its myco colony, so I reinnoculate after I'm done lightly stressing them with extra P application in weeks 3-5. Even if there is ZERO synth P applied, IMO just the presence of root absorbable P (I assume this is what the rock phosphate in Natural BLOOM has been processed into) could harm the myco.
There is a lot of data on the differences in indoor vs outdoor from a rhizo-perspective. The article says it well. I dunno about the wording 'should', I guess I'm just saying less 'can' be used without losses in yield/quality. And yes I have been testing this theory on my last few grows (see KP boost lower down) Maybe indica is just more stress resistant as these varieties evolved in more of a mountainous desert compared to the paradise the sativas evolved in? So indica kinda likes more stressors to bring about a full genetic response to the environment? Dunno
PK booster = flashy label, overmarketed, "miracle juice" that usually costs a LOT (especially ANs BS knockoffs of everyone else's good sellers)
I used these products in the past before I learned that this plant will grow great without the industry or the constant hype and BS around 'just add this' products. The one I have most experience with years ago is Botanicare's Hydroplex. So basically all these products offer high dose (especially the synth ones) P and K, and the good (expensive) ones usually offer other fancy snack molecules for bloom. Traditionally the P is double the K or more (0-52-32, 0-10-6, etc) I think there may be a place for these type products, just NOT in my garden and NOT hitting the rootzone with this stressor all the time they are in bloom.
What I do after learning all this in the last year is a KP boost: (thats just the way I phrase adding in extra KP on top of my Biocanna+)
(KP boost = twice the K as P)
My KP boost is: 1/8tsp Techniflora Seaweed 1-1-16, 5ml Natural BLOOM 0-10-0, and 5-7ml organic Blackstrap Molasses ~0-0-4 per Gallon. Totaling to around 1-11-20 I run my KP boost starting at week 3 thru week 5. I alternate food and tea and only add KP boost to my nute waterings. This OG round is the first time I've used the Natural BLOOM as part of my KP boost. It seems to have done the job as I see only a few leaves doing the P curl, mostly older lower ones. Biocanna def needs some P help IMO tho. As I said above I only run this boost until week 5 and then reinnoculate the myco to make it a maxed-out network again for the final resin push.
So like I said earlier I have been recently doing the KP thing for my bloom boost. On the first round I tried it I got a record yield for me of high quality LSD buds, can't really say how much as I am a med patient. Lets just say if had done four of these I would have had more than four times our allowed weight
Here she is right before chop time
1plant vegged long on 400, bloomed 1000w filled 4x4 tent!The OGs I did more of a 'hash' prune and I doubt they'll be a record yielder, but man that grease is sooooo flavorful on the sniff test! But I think they had enough P just yielded less cause I left like a hundred too many flower sites on them.
Interestingly, Matt no longer uses the Natural BLOOM and from his pics I'd say his ladies are doing great and not getting P loaded into their roots? Why did you discontinue this product Matt? Was it because you just didn't need any extra P on top of your full regimen?
Thanks for staying with me Dank Raptor. It alarms me how some of these forum interactions get so tiffy like 'Your wrong, I'm right' when really if we all conversed respectfully with each other for a few more lines then everybody gets to learn, digest, and discuss further until we are on the journey together and stronger for it.
Kinda like the plants in our organic gardens with full myco compared to ones that the synth (or P loading?) has caused the plants to not care about their natural friends, the symbionts have it right; they work well with others!
Kalyx
Active Member
DR I found your Fungi Dominant Brew recipe in the AACT thread. I believe where our conversation started was my wondering what you do (other than utilize Natural BLOOM in it) to make general tea into a specifically fungal dominate one. From this post I see you do multiple things. So basically I'm gonna answer my below question for myself (based on this here) cause I don't want to stall out this rad thread. My ?:
So now that I found this older post I have the answer to my question. I am answering my own ? more for clarification for others b/c I get that you (DR and most other organic long-timers) understand these points as you do these practices in YOUR fungal dominant tea.
1) Make a 'santas beard' using oat bran as a food source to replicate the fungi (fungi only grow longer hyphae in AACT, these pre-steps allow them to increase in number as well, to give them a better starting point when competing for resources with fast dividing bacteria)
2) Soft Rock Phosphate (the rock powder form of it) adds physical shelter and some micros and slow release P food source per Teaming with Microbes (I don't know if Natural Bloom acts more like the rock powder cause its organic or if the processing makes it more of an immediatly available P source)
3) Fish hydrolysate provides an all important protein food source (plus oils and other consumables).
NEW ? FOR EVERYONE: COMMENTS ON THE KP boost and the OVERUSE of P for container gardens? Myth or new info? Anyone else tested this theory yet?
Greenchile is adjusting his supersoil mix based on the premise of more K to balance out the HUGE P load from the bone meal AND high P guano:
I think this discussion is pretty important for the (mostly)vegan growing style as it is tough to find vegan P sources that are potent like the animal derived ones. However it seems that K is abundantly available in the plant kingdom (probably because it is actually more utilized in the cellular composition of most plants, also the case in cannabis) So do we need to spend the money on all the P amending? What do you think?
Dank Raptor
Active Member
- what improved about your fungal Tea with more rock phosphate in there? Also do you think there is a better form of it (i.e. straight powder vs. chelated with kelp plus calcium from Humboldt nutes) for boosting the fungal Tea? I understand there are MANY more types of fungi involved in our containers than just Mycorrhizae and want to learn to boost ALL of the bennies!
Not sure if there is a better form of soft rock phosphate. I know that there is a raw form but I dont want to switch because I have been pulling some massive harvests recently. The only other ingredients HN Bloom lists is kelp and Yucca, the calcium is naturally in rock phosphate. I don't believe that HN Bloom Natural is chelated, like you mentioned earlier. There are two versions of HN Bloom. The natural "organic" version 0-10-0 and there is another regular HN Bloom 0-6-5 that is chem. Confusing huh?
My teas have definately improved since using the soft rock. I have noticed a difference in the overall soil texture of my plants. There is a systemic fungi throughout the medium that gives the soil a soft spongy feel.
The three points you made about my tea recipe I could not have said better myself. Especially how the bacteria are fast dividing and I also believe that "giving fungi a head start" (from the book teaming with microbes) is important. Wish I could +rep you again Kalyx.
+ WitchDoctor +
Well-Known Member
This was a great discussion, I wasn't expecting to learn so MUCH!
Bio Rhizotonic is for sale in the US now if anyone doesn't know yet. I just bought some here in Michigan at a local hydro store. Can't wait to try it out! I believe they can get Bio Terra Plus now as well, and I think it's vegan now.
Bio Rhizotonic is for sale in the US now if anyone doesn't know yet. I just bought some here in Michigan at a local hydro store. Can't wait to try it out! I believe they can get Bio Terra Plus now as well, and I think it's vegan now.
Kalyx
Active Member
My local supplier just had a visit from the CANNA rep. A few things of note for us veganic users. Yes Bio Rhizotonic and Bio Cannazyme are supposedly coming here, (been available in Europe) not on the shelves from this dealer yet. I got no word on the BTplus they werent informed on that. The wierd thing they told me is that nothing has changed in these formulations only the labeling. So I asked if the products will be listed with OMRI as well, the shop did not ask this detailed of questions (wish I had a chance to talk to the rep myself). I always wonder though if they are just doing a label switch for marketing to sell more or actually making these products hold up to a higher organics standards for users who DO care.
Also one more interesting thing (heresay now I guess, because I got the info second hand) the CANNA rep said was about CANNAZYME. He of course was plugging it, but by comparing it to Hygrozyme which is one product I have used since the beginning which remains an enigma to me due to the 'top secret' formula and marketing. I do understand them not wanting to be reverse engineered by all the knockoff specialists (AN and many others). Anyway he said something akin to:
"buy cannazyme because it is a good all around (all types of x-ases to break up everything that plants want further broken down in our organic container mixes) enzyme product. It differs from Hygrozyme in that Hygrozyme contains many other booster molecules in addition to enzymes. So ours is more affordable cause it is purely a (I think set of 12) enzymes product without other expensive ingredients.
Theirs is cheaper than the OMRI listed Hygrozyme. I use Hygrozyme and love it but wonder what these other compounds besides enzymes are included for etc? And what is up with the alcoholic smell, is it just left over from fermenting bacteria to extract out the enzymes from?
I don't think alcohol is good in the rootzone but KNOW hygrozyme is so I wonder online for help....
Also one more interesting thing (heresay now I guess, because I got the info second hand) the CANNA rep said was about CANNAZYME. He of course was plugging it, but by comparing it to Hygrozyme which is one product I have used since the beginning which remains an enigma to me due to the 'top secret' formula and marketing. I do understand them not wanting to be reverse engineered by all the knockoff specialists (AN and many others). Anyway he said something akin to:
"buy cannazyme because it is a good all around (all types of x-ases to break up everything that plants want further broken down in our organic container mixes) enzyme product. It differs from Hygrozyme in that Hygrozyme contains many other booster molecules in addition to enzymes. So ours is more affordable cause it is purely a (I think set of 12) enzymes product without other expensive ingredients.
Theirs is cheaper than the OMRI listed Hygrozyme. I use Hygrozyme and love it but wonder what these other compounds besides enzymes are included for etc? And what is up with the alcoholic smell, is it just left over from fermenting bacteria to extract out the enzymes from?
I don't think alcohol is good in the rootzone but KNOW hygrozyme is so I wonder online for help....
Please keep us updated on the BT Plus availability and any formula changes (to vegan?) that you hear about. Danks for the bio-update share!