TORR POWER SAVING VEG METHOD

Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
RangiSTaxi said:
If you read through the entire thread you will see that 12 white 12 red will make photoperiod seeds flower just like Autos from seed
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Well Im not sure if I understand this correctly... and I did read the thread, just theres some disbelief.
Have you ever tried 12/12 from seed using no light during the night.There, plants will also initiate flower sooner than normal. It has to do with Pfr/Pr conversion buildup...
I think in veg the aim is not to let flowering hormones build up. 1 h of light during the off-phase can do that trick. Gas Lantern Routine...
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
RangiSTaxi said:
also im calling this nutrient a hero, no matter how bad you stuff up with your nutrients this one seems to bring things back within a week
View attachment 4456046
as a grower of 20 years, i rarely recommend a nutrient product, but if your having trouble try it, works for me, shake the bottle and give it a go.
and let me know. The iron is the key. Iron and nitrogen are a match made in heaven.
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Do you know at which week in flower you want to increase Fe? And for what?
Nevertheless, that fert looks good. Just too much Ca (ie Ca:Mg 2:1 in flower optimally IMO...)
Greets
 
R

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
Do you know at which week in flower you want to increase Fe? And for what?
Nevertheless, that fert looks good. Just too much Ca (ie Ca:Mg 2:1 in flower optimally IMO...)
Greets
Click to expand...
Sounds Like you know your stuff, feel free to take over the thread with test and trials as im signing out on this one.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
RangiSTaxi said:
Sounds Like you know your stuff, feel free to take over the thread with test and trials as im signing out on this one.
Click to expand...
Im sorry didnt want to give you that impression. some stuff I know (ie CalMag) but not so much at all on micronutes like iron. thats what spurt my interest when I saw that bottle.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Yes man, pretty impressive info you give out there, thanks alot :clap:
RangiSTaxi said:
have suffered some leaf bleaching again from the 2 far reds, the 730 nms
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could it be that the 730nm radiation is mostly converted to heat upon absorption? its well beyond the PAR action spectrum 400nm-700nm. I order myself a batch - gonna play around with it - TORRing :D

Regarding the bottled fertilizer - when do see an indication to use it? during stretch when bottom leaves start yellowing for example?

BTW your plants look super healthy
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
RangiSTaxi said:
I would go for 100% 660nm if possible and avoid the 730nm, mines 2x 730nm and 10x 660nm strip.

I would not use anymore than 60 watts max red per 4x4, it might prevent flower initiation . 30 watt would be fine.
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Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)

I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:
IMG_20200201_162412~3.jpg
here's an excerpt from a conversation with @Dr. Who which describes how that's been used:

"4 weeks ago I made an unexpected encounter - the vegtent with only a bunch of 4 week plants all regs went into flower. Under 18/6 lights. However, I have made a lighting experience and put both an MH & HPS dual under the hood.

Mourning: 6h MH
Midday: 6h MH + HPS
Evening: 6h HPS
30-50k lux at the canopy.

Could this be due to hormonell response initiated in stimulus of 12h of orange-shifted light from the HPS? or the lack of blue spectrum? but I knew folks that vegged entirely with HPS, and plants didnt go into flower right when they were mature...

Maybe its more complicated? Maybe from the shift... telling the plants oh only very short day with direct sunlight... I find it somehow hard to believe that the 660nm receptor is telling a plant "direct sunlight" when that wavelength actually is measured also quite diffuse in spread. Blue or UV would make much more sense, and there are so many of them.

However, the simulation also resulted in lesser luminosity in comparison to both HIDs full 18h on. Therefore, currently changed to
18h HPS + 14h MH
6h night

their back in veg now, but I wonder if I just could initiate flowering by reverting back to the old setting. less luminosity but 18h of light instead of 12... "

as you can see, my plants got 18h of uninterrupted light but paradoxically, the whole tent flowered (photo's) even at week 4 from seed.

I cannot explain this behaviour. But there was only 12h of white/blue light, and the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h darkness. A HPS will emit mostly yellow/red light:spektral-vergleich-lampen.jpg

so maybe the red light isn't "interpretated" as day by plants/Cannabis...??!?? Because that would also explain why your TORR method does what it does - your plants do flower fine.
So if this is true, it could perhaps mean that one can flower Cannabis under 16 or 18 or 20 or maybe even 24h of consecutive light.
I think you already arrived at this conclusion, isn't it:
RangiSTaxi said:
whether this is of any benefit has yet to be determined.

At this stage , im not recommending to use 12 white 12 red unless you want to turn over crops very quickly.

Im thinking that 16 white 8 red if it triggers flowering , that 24 hours of light could be a game changer. for photo period seeds
Click to expand...
RangiSTaxi said:
Wow 3 days later and the buds have doubled in size
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I've previously thought that you'd use 730nm and that the increased temperature during the nightphase would be responsible for the vigorous growth of your plants (just like @bk78 keeps his temps constant high throughout the whole cycle...). But that alone doesn't explain why there's no revegg in your case, or why my plants did initiate flowering.

Now if we just look at various plant photo receptors:
15816128767967519254947891281289.png
Fig9.png
Photoreceptors.jpg

then you'll surely noticed most of them are well beyond both 730nm and 660nm. 550nm seems to be the start for secondairy plant metabolites.

Only Chlorophyl A + B, Pr + Pfr are working over 550nm. The official plant physiology teaches that plants using Pr to determine the day, and Pfr to determine night. But then your plants should revegg. Maybe the light emitted by 660nm/730nm monos isn't strong enough to do this, but on the other hand - you've even burnt your plants with it, as illustrated on this thread.

But if plants would use actually blue/white light to determine the day (and not Pr) then both our observed plant behaviour would make sense.
I feel we're on to something... which would require some testing... I wonder how much more 660nm lumen could be thrown at plants - in order to see if they revegg? Your monos don't gibe much out - but actually my HPS did - I measured 30k lumens (it's not max but these were small young plants in veg...). Plus a HPS will even throw alot of yellow light out, even very close to the best quantum efficiency that there is... so how in the world did these plants not consider this *day*?

Anyone else to chime in here? @Grow Lights Australia @Dr. Who @hybridway2 @Renfro @chex1111 @Sedan
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
Just to be absolutely clear, are you saying you are/did use light in the range of 660nm (Hyper Red) during the 12 hour lasting nightphase in flowering - and your plants didn't revegg? If so that would be absolutely mindblowing, I thought you did use 730nm exclusively... but 660nm is PAR... this is somewhat against the book, but let me tell you this: (and I hope I don't jump too early to conclusions now...)

I've build myself a new light for my vegtent 80x80cm out of old HIDS (which were laying around unused) just for jolly, it's a HPS + MH combined:
View attachment 4495318
here's an excerpt from a conversation with @Dr. Who which describes how that's been used:

"4 weeks ago I made an unexpected encounter - the vegtent with only a bunch of 4 week plants all regs went into flower. Under 18/6 lights. However, I have made a lighting experience and put both an MH & HPS dual under the hood.

Mourning: 6h MH
Midday: 6h MH + HPS
Evening: 6h HPS
30-50k lux at the canopy.

Could this be due to hormonell response initiated in stimulus of 12h of orange-shifted light from the HPS? or the lack of blue spectrum? but I knew folks that vegged entirely with HPS, and plants didnt go into flower right when they were mature...

Maybe its more complicated? Maybe from the shift... telling the plants oh only very short day with direct sunlight... I find it somehow hard to believe that the 660nm receptor is telling a plant "direct sunlight" when that wavelength actually is measured also quite diffuse in spread. Blue or UV would make much more sense, and there are so many of them.

However, the simulation also resulted in lesser luminosity in comparison to both HIDs full 18h on. Therefore, currently changed to
18h HPS + 14h MH
6h night

their back in veg now, but I wonder if I just could initiate flowering by reverting back to the old setting. less luminosity but 18h of light instead of 12... "

as you can see, my plants got 18h of uninterrupted light but paradoxically, the whole tent flowered (photo's) even at week 4 from seed.

I cannot explain this behaviour. But there was only 12h of white/blue light, and the rest was 6h HPS light + 6h darkness. A HPS will emit mostly yellow/red light:View attachment 4495319

so maybe the red light isn't "interpretated" as day by plants/Cannabis...??!?? Because that would also explain why your TORR method does what it does - your plants do flower fine.
So if this is true, it could perhaps mean that one can flower Cannabis under 16 or 18 or 20 or maybe even 24h of consecutive light.
I think you already arrived at this conclusion, isn't it:



I've previously thought that you'd use 730nm and that the increased temperature during the nightphase would be responsible for the vigorous growth of your plants (just like @bk78 keeps his temps constant high throughout the whole cycle...). But that alone doesn't explain why there's no revegg in your case, or why my plants did initiate flowering.

Now if we just look at various plant photo receptors:
View attachment 4495327
View attachment 4495328
View attachment 4495329

then you'll surely noticed most of them are well beyond both 730nm and 660nm. 550nm seems to be the start for secondairy plant metabolites.

Only Chlorophyl A + B, Pr + Pfr are working over 550nm. The official plant physiology teaches that plants using Pr to determine the day, and Pfr to determine night. But then your plants should revegg. Maybe the light emitted by 660nm/730nm monos isn't strong enough to do this, but on the other hand - you've even burnt your plants with it, as illustrated on this thread.

But if plants would use actually blue/white light to determine the day (and not Pr) then both our observed plant behaviour would make sense.
I feel we're on to something... which would require some testing... I wonder how much more 660nm lumen could be thrown at plants - in order to see if they revegg? Your monos don't gibe much out - but actually my HPS did - I measured 30k lumens (it's not max but these were small young plants in veg...). Plus a HPS will even throw alot of yellow light out, even very close to the best quantum efficiency that there is... so how in the world did these plants not consider this *day*?

Anyone else to chime in here? @Grow Lights Australia @Dr. Who @hybridway2 @Renfro @chex1111 @Sedan
Click to expand...

NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.

Not in any "proper" way.

This idea of increasing lighting times in bloom? Does not increase the yield in any cost effective way!
What you think it can do , does not happen.

This is a popular thing for me to say - "If it's not being done in commercial growing ops, even food growing hydro ops (think of the vast tomato hydro operations in Holland supplying the EU). It's not worth doing.

Playing with things in a lab is one thing. Applying it successfully in real world applications? Is a whole nother ball of wax.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.
Click to expand...
but this is what this guy has been illustrating in this very thread. Why didn't the plants reveg? And his plants do not look wasted or irregular or whatever... they look healthy a lot.
What I'm searching for a theory explaining this observed behaviour. How would you explain what you can see here in this thread?

Dr. Who said:
This idea of increasing lighting times in bloom? Does not increase the yield in any cost effective way!
What you think it can do , does not happen.
Click to expand...
Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
- reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
- one could increase the area using the same luminosity.

Ultimately, both ways would mean lesser hardware cost - which, in the case of LED boards - could be dramatic!

I'm just not sure how much lux the plants can tolerate during the night phase...? @RangiSTaxi how great measures the area which you shine out with the HRs/FRs? How close do you keep them from the top canopy? You perhaps happen to have a luxmeter at your place, or better: something to measure ppfd?

Dr. Who said:
This is a popular thing for me to say - "If it's not being done in commercial growing ops, even food growing hydro ops (think of the vast tomato hydro operations in Holland supplying the EU). It's not worth doing.
Click to expand...
I understand but nevertheless plant physiology isn't 100% complete. Maybe we're currently looking at a spot where no study has been doing it before? LED monos aren't that long around... I beg you, to dogmatically turn something down is not a scientific approach at all.

And even the smartest people do sometimes err:
What did Einstein say about Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle? "God doesn't throw dices". Later this "dice" (co-)founded one of the 2 great modern physical theories of the 20th century: Quantum Mechanics.

Dr. Who said:
Playing with things in a lab is one thing. Applying it successfully in real world applications? Is a whole nother ball of wax.
Click to expand...
that's true - but my main goal here is to understand what's going on... to formulate a theory, validate it, or try to falsify it... and with an increased set of empirical data, one should be able to more clear if a practical application is even possible.

Step by step, slowly but steadily. :peace:
 
R

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
I dont know the science behind why it works, i just know it does, we are talking about 30 - 60 watts of RED 660nm, I guess its just not enough to prevent the hormones building up during the dark period, I guess that is the obvious conclusion, also many fast flowering varieties have been breed to flower and initiate flowering quickly.

Please Just Try it Yourself , 12 hours White light / 12 hours red 10x 660nm and 2 x far Red. , Ive listed the light strip and the driver I have used.
The Plants do start flowering from Veg Stage to finishing. Bring a veg plant into 12 hours White light / 12 hours red 10x 660nm and 2 x far Red and it will start flowering and continue flowering. My main white light is a HLG 550, over summer peak heat ,i dialed it down to 350 watts, yes i was surprised at first too. I grow in shallow trays.

Some times seeing is believing, Try it yourself.@Kassiopeija @Dr. Who

You may think you know everything, give it a go yourself. You can Apologize later, try it in a sealed tent like i have done, no light leaks.

https://www.cutter.com.au/product/ssk-1560-730_660/

The driver from https://www.digikey.co.nz/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/APC-25-700/1866-1125-ND/7702576

Seedmans BIG nugs FAST photoperiod seeds was the fastest to flower and finish under this if testing. world of seeds Pakistan valley also flowers under this quickly as does, northern lights, blue dream, kosher kush, Alaskan purple. I haven't attempted this on any long flowering sativas , but it definitely does trigger flowering on fast flowering varieties, all photoperiod seeds.

Note the driver 700mA 11 ~ 36V Constant Current LED Driver

I have a Lux Meter LUX is between 900 and 1300 at plant height under Red Light at night.

give it a go, let me know.

@Dr. Who , I have worked in commercial horticulture all my life,and im not exactly young, in nursery production, fruit production and in floriculture, native plants in my said country as production manager, the largest native plant nursery in my country, Phaelnopsis and Cymbidium in the largest orchid nursery in the southern hemiphere as production manager, strawberry production, in ground and hydroponics, Kiwifruit and Avocados born and breed all my life since 11 years of age, currently managing the family orchard 16 hectares, gold G9 Kiwifruit , Hass Avocados, Im also a horticulture consultant. Im no idiot when it comes to horticulture..Admittedly im no expect on cannabis but have grown it for over 15 years, im still learning, like you.
 
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R

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
NO! You can not expose plants to the 600nm bands for over 14 hrs and have blooming continue.
Click to expand...
Yes You Can Ive proven it, Try it yourself and see, for yourself!

Lets Prove you wrong , Order Seedmans big nugs fast, photoperod seeds.

Veg seedlings to desired height under 24 hours of white light or just run 12 white 12 red from clone or seedling start to finish.

Buy the cutter strip 10 x 660mn leds with 2 far red leds 730mn with the driver i purchased.

Add the plants to a tent, to rule out light leaks, I bet your top dollar those plants will show sex within 2-3 weeks max (likely much sooner, if clones or mature seedlings older than 2 weeks) and will continue flowering till harvest, which will be very good yield and dense buds.

Although i used hlg 550 leds im sure you will get the same results under hps, maybe even faster to show sex and flower.

trial it and post your progress here. @Dr. Who

I challenge everyone else here to do the same and post results.

Dont tell me it doesn't work till you try it yourself, photoperiod Cannabis plants do flower under 660nm bands even at 24 hours, i run my reds with the white light for 12 hours than the white light goes off for 12 hours leaving only the red strip for 12 hours usually known as the dark period.

They flower and continue to do so till harvest.

It definitely may have a commercial use, the cannabis industry is young compared to other horticultural crops which are also evolving at a fast pace.
 
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Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Yes I will try this it's hands down the most intriguing light technique I've found so far. But Im still vegging here, my flowering main tent needs an upgrade in light, Im still waiting for some for some stuff, which seems to delayed because of SARS-2.

One problem we have is how to do a valid comparison? Because, this method uses up more energy, so it would only justify if a better g/w ratio comes out.... but I only have 2 tents, Id have to construct two similar boxes and work with clones.
Hah! why not? that would be fun, I could scoop up some more skills :D

Last night I formulated a theory, I think I can explain whats happening here.... I wrote Bugbee a letter, lets just wait for an answer...

BTW what does 'TORR' mean? is this an abreviation?

RangiSTaxi said:
Seedmans BIG nugs FAST photoperiod seeds was the fastest to flower and finish under this if testing. world of seeds Pakistan valley also flowers under this quickly as does, northern lights, blue dream, kosher kush, Alaskan purple. I haven't attempted this on any long flowering sativas , but it definitely does trigger flowering on fast flowering varieties, all photoperiod seeds.
Click to expand...
Actually sativas are my preferred regiment, so we complement perfectly. It should work on any strain... although not sure on ruderalis... Im still waiting for seeds plus I hope to get some promising new genetics in 10 days at the annual Spannabis mess.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
RangiSTaxi said:
Yes You Can Ive proven it, Try it yourself and see, for yourself!

Lets Prove you wrong , Order Seedmans big nugs fast, photoperod seeds.

Veg seedlings to desired height under 24 hours of white light or just run 12 white 12 red from clone or seedling start to finish.

Buy the cutter strip 10 x 660mn leds with 2 far red leds 730mn with the driver i purchased.

Add the plants to a tent, to rule out light leaks, I bet your top dollar those plants will show sex within 2-3 weeks max (likely much sooner, if clones or mature seedlings older than 2 weeks) and will continue flowering till harvest, which will be very good yield and dense buds.

Although i used hlg 550 leds im sure you will get the same results under hps, maybe even faster to show sex and flower.

trial it and post your progress here. @Dr. Who

I challenge everyone else here to do the same and post results.

Dont tell me it doesn't work till you try it yourself, photoperiod Cannabis plants do flower under 660nm bands even at 24 hours, i run my reds with the white light for 12 hours than the white light goes off for 12 hours leaving only the red strip for 12 hours usually known as the dark period.

They flower and continue to do so till harvest.

It definitely may have a commercial use, the cannabis industry is young compared to other horticultural crops which are also evolving at a fast pace.
Click to expand...
Question. So what is the plant getting from that? What positive return do you get? Shorter bloom time? What about yields? Anything is likely to be minor at BEST - AND I'll bet the end quality is effected. And not in a good way.

I'll put my potential grown results up against that method.....

No thanks but, I believe you then....
Commercial applications? Nope, doubt that 100%.

I see no real benefit in the long term... What is it really doing for the plant?
For 1 thing? Your running 730nm bands with it. Your confusing the plant as 730's are the photo signal for the plant to change over to lights out plant process's! I'm telling you right now. The plant in bloom may not appear to "require" a lights out period BUT, your depriving it of natural periods of plant process that does NOT happen at any other time!

You know what? It just occurred to me that the plant is in a perpetual loop of attempting to "sleep and still getting the 600 range, staying partly awake.

I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.

Bet you stop vegging for 24 hrs after learning this too...

Everyone trying to play with lighting times.....It's been done somewhere and likely in the lab they began the 730 testing in..... Funny you don't see them in commercial use - do you?
 
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Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Kassiopeija said:
but this is what this guy has been illustrating in this very thread. Why didn't the plants reveg? And his plants do not look wasted or irregular or whatever... they look healthy a lot.
What I'm searching for a theory explaining this observed behaviour. How would you explain what you can see here in this thread?
Click to expand...
The plants were "looping" by the exposure to the 730's - by trying to "sleep" and the 660's keeping them just at the edge of awake - from the constant 730 exposure.....

Value? Likely nothing really.

Kassiopeija said:
Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
- reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
- one could increase the area using the same luminosity.

Ultimately, both ways would mean lesser hardware cost - which, in the case of LED boards - could be dramatic!

I'm just not sure how much lux the plants can tolerate during the night phase...? @RangiSTaxi how great measures the area which you shine out with the HRs/FRs? How close do you keep them from the top canopy? You perhaps happen to have a luxmeter at your place, or better: something to measure ppfd?

I understand but nevertheless plant physiology isn't 100% complete. Maybe we're currently looking at a spot where no study has been doing it before? LED monos aren't that long around... I beg you, to dogmatically turn something down is not a scientific approach at all.
Click to expand...

Sigh...... Your focusing on one end of the pool - Like I said to the other guy.. DEEPLY research the light saturation point in C3 plants! This is just part of the story of what the plant is doing during lights out.
You remove that and what are you really getting?

I suggest you both search "Google scholar" over the regular google search engine too! Spend your coins to open papers or find someone with an active college "key".

There is more to light exposure then logic theory! Nature did not get it wrong....
 
R

RangiSTaxi

Well-Known Member
I started this just as a idea to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs, but they started flowering on me.
No idea if it has any advantage at all for flowering, probably not.

Yes the light strip is 10 x 660mn and 2 far reds at 730mn. It's just what cutter had at the time, the strip with the least far reds, I really was just looking for 660mn at the time as I was just wanting to prevent flowering.

But they started flowering on me so I continued with it.

No advantage or disadvantage over 12/12 , that I can see. There may be uses I don't know.

As stated above the initial idea was to keep plants in Veg to cut power costs and give me a bit more stretch in veg as my nodes were too close and my plants were too compact and the plants were too bushy for my liking.

But they flowered.. possibly because the red light is too under powered to prevent flowering.
 
Kassiopeija

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
Question. So what is the plant getting from that? What positive return do you get?
Click to expand...
I don't know, yet, let's simply find out. If someone would've told me that in theory I'd have been likewise skeptical (revegging, herming)
Dr. Who said:
Shorter bloom time?
Click to expand...
Yes, possibly. Unless several side by sides have been done it's not ruled out at all. But the understanding of this process should come in advance, or, en route while testing.
Dr. Who said:
What about yields?
Click to expand...
shorter bloom time equates higher yields if one runs perpetual.
Dr. Who said:
Anything is likely to be minor at BEST - AND I'll bet the end quality is effected. And not in a good way.
Click to expand...
How can you know that?
Dr. Who said:
You know what? It just occurred to me that the plant is in a perpetual loop of attempting to "sleep and still getting the 600 range, staying partly awake.
Click to expand...
Yes, it could very well be that the 660nm light hinders the buildup of Pfr - but if it would do so on a somewhat broader scale the plant wouldn't even start to flower, or, revegg! But it doesn't. This could have several reasons... and this is exactly what I want to find out.

There's also 730nms present - constantly, somewhat forceing the buildup of Pfr - enforcing flower while still allowing the plant to be wake.
But it's not even much Far Red at all.

Dr. Who said:
I suggest you deeply research the light saturation point in C3 plants. Understanding just what is going on during the lights out period and what it's doing for the plant, is a solid step to understanding that need. This is just part of what the plants doing at lights out too.
Click to expand...
I understand what the light saturation point is, which I adressed here:
Kassiopeija said:
Because of the DLI, I get that. I'm thinking something else:
IF extra hours could be used for photosynthesis then the DLI (the amount of PAR photons needed per day) can be distributed over more time - which would either
- reduce the ppfd requirements (if area/canopy to light out stays the same) OR
- one could increase the area using the same luminosity.
Click to expand...
and maybe you are right Doc but maybe this isn't even due to increased photosynthesis - there could be other factors at large:
What do you know about a plants wakeing up phase? If a plant is under 12 hours of uninterrupted darkness, and the (hard) lights go on at an instant - does the plant need some time to get the photosynthesis-apparat & its metabolism running - or is it at once running at 100%? I read the former... maybe the Torr does away with this ... so light can be used up more efficiently.
It could also be due to increased temperature/metabolism.
Maybe this method doesn't give the plant more carbohydrates - but it may give a plant more time to do with said carbohydrates what it wants to do.
Maybe a plant encounters a mild shock once lights go on at an instant - you're argueing alot with "the natural argument" - but this is also unnatural - in nature luminosity rises not so swiftly like in our indoor grow setting. The TORR method could mititgate that shock a little, making the transition smoother.

I'm living 3km away from an agricultural university - they have an open library there. All I need is more key words to search for - if you could grant me those - esp. for internal plant processes that happen through the night-phase.

Dr. Who said:
Bet you stop vegging for 24 hrs after learning this too...
Click to expand...
I know some professional grow shop in Austria that sell cuts from cup-winning strains who veg entirely for 24/0. They do fine. Photorespiration does happen during the day-time, too, otherwise these plants would die due to toxic buildup.

This article proves that 24/0 light can even get better results than 18/6, please read carefully it's very interesting:
news.mit.edu

The future of agriculture is computerized

Researchers at the MIT Media Lab Open Agriculture Initiative have used computer algorithms to determine the optimal growing conditions to improve basil plants’ taste by maximizing the concentration of flavorful molecules known as volatile compounds.
news.mit.edu news.mit.edu

And I'm not even saying that plants under the TORR method see the 660nms + 730nms as "day" - maybe it's just night for them due to insufficient luminosity; let's make a small logical abstract:

Conventional 12/12:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

TORR:
Lights on: high luminosity
Lights out: NOT high luminosity

--> it's the same.

Heck, maybe it's not even from the 660nm but from the 730nms during the whole night instead of just 15mins...? More Pfr buildup.

Dr. Who said:
Funny you don't see them in commercial use - do you?
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How much worth is 1g of tomato? 1g of paprica? 1g of lettuce? And 1g of CANNABIS??? Maybe some hardware simply doesn't justify on conventional cheap foodcrops. Since the legalization did happen in the US Cannabis evolved in market shares up to the gold sector.... just look at the LED sector - they still develop lights with better and better light spectrum - the McCree Action spectrum has been known for a long, long time - but in the meantime we had an evolution of plurple into Cree COBS whites, then white strip boards, now sunspectrum boards incl. UV. Are you saying we have already reached the end of the tunnel and already know it all when it comes to nature or plant physiology? Why then are scientists still doing studies?

:peace: no offense ment Doc - I'm partly playing advocatus diaboli here :P - and I'm eager to read what your collegues say - perhaps they could sign up here and post directly? 8)

TLDR:
I remain optimistic, and am far too curious to find out, but calling it a day now :bigjoint:
Best regards :wink:
 
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