Topping up the nutrient mixture

Al B. Fuct said:

Problem is, EC meters meadure 'total dissolved salts,' a measure of the electrical conductivity of a solution, caused by one or more ionic impurities. The indicated ppm can be right while the proportions are way off. In example, it'd be possible to have a perfectly normal looking 1500ppm and have no N in solution at all. Moreover, you'll have no idea at all anything's wrong.

An EC meter measures everything; it doesn't even care what sort of 'salt' is in the water. You can make a nute meter indicate anything with plain water and table salt (sodium chloride), but you'd sure not want to put that solution on a plant- unless it were seaweed.

If you progressively top up nutes without ever dumping, it'll continue to get "wronger" until it shows up as nute deficiencies or burns.

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Yes we know this and you keep going over this, you are not going convince anyone to dump nutes every 2 weeks on your beliefs.

I have no doubts of the superiority of your nutrient meter, but what your asking is unrealistic from people trying to grow on budget and the results we get dumping every 4 weeks are more than acceptable.

Another thing to take into consideration is your setup.

You obviously have a great amount of space available to you and you run a rotating crop and the way you rotate this crop makes it easier for you to drop your nutes every 2 weeks.

My tank is a bitch to get to, then i have to move all the plant off.

My tank is in a basement with no tap and no drain, so first off i have to use the pump to move all the water out the tank into a 10l bucket, and carry these up stairs to empty.
when thats done i have to carry the system bits to wash and bleach them
then i have to refil with fresh water and nutes and carry down another 120 litres of water by way of bucket.

Add this onto the cost of the nutes to keep dumping it and then it just adds up to too much cost and too much hassle, topping it up works out to be a lot easier and a lot cheaper and I am still happy with the results

Al B. Fuct said:

You must be a lot richer than everyone else if you can afford to pay $60 to mix up 360L of nutes. Only costs $AUD24 ($USD19.68 ) for me to mix up 500L.

Shop better and you won't have to cut corners.

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Your the one cutting corners by only using basic nutrients

I dont use a lot of grow because for veg i only use the dunk method. this doesnt cost me much.

But here in sunny ole england not austrailia or wherever the bumfuck you come from most nutes cost around the same price, at my local hydro shop they only sell the stuff in 1litre bottles so that would make it even more expensive than what i said before.

I have been using 2 litre bottles that i buy from ebay, these are at slightly inflated costs, but thats the way i have to do things.

Shortly I intend to go bioponic and use coco and organic nutes, so once that happens my nute bill will change.

nongreenthumb said:

My tank is a bitch to get to, then i have to move all the plant off.

My tank is in a basement with no tap and no drain, so first off i have to use the pump to move all the water out the tank into a 10l bucket, and carry these up stairs to empty.
when thats done i have to carry the system bits to wash and bleach them
then i have to refil with fresh water and nutes and carry down another 120 litres of water by way of bucket.

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wow, lots of work. Gotta be a better way.

How much vertical lift would you need to get a garden hose to the nearest drain? No floor drain in that basement anywhere? Laundry sink or anything?

My grow isn't at all large; 7' tall x 8.5' wide x 9.5' long; houses 4x 4'x4' trays and 1x 1'x3' tray for mums. You can NOT swing a cat in there. That's why I set up the drainage valve system. Twist, twist, click & the tanks are draining, by virtue of some lengths of old (free!) garden hose connecting all the tanks to a drain.

I haven't put in permanent plumbing to fill the tanks yet- I still do that with a hose connected to an indoor hose tap (on a utility sink spigot)- but that plumbing is coming. I want to be able to fill tanks as easily as I can dump them.

Can't you get a garden hose in the room to fill your tank instead of bucketing?

Al B. Fuct said:

If you progressively top up nutes without ever dumping, it'll continue to get "wronger" until it shows up as nute deficiencies or burns.

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I understand this Al, and I understand what an EC meter measures my only point really was that it may be better to top up with nute mix rather than plaint water between tank dumps (whenever you do them), making sure there are plenty of the necessary nutes available.

If you dump the tanks at the nute maker's suggested intervals, your nutes will be right for their specified period, whatever it is they suggest. Unless the maker's instruction says to add more nutes between dumps, don't. They've likely already worked out in testing that the concentrations remain in the acceptable range for the period they suggest. Adding more nutes between regular dumps, on the maker's tank life spec, just isn't necessary.

Al B. Fuct said:

wow, lots of work. Gotta be a better way.

How much vertical lift would you need to get a garden hose to the nearest drain? No floor drain in that basement anywhere? Laundry sink or anything?

My grow isn't at all large; 7' tall x 8.5' wide x 9.5' long; houses 4x 4'x4' trays and 1x 1'x3' tray for mums. You can NOT swing a cat in there. That's why I set up the drainage valve system. Twist, twist, click & the tanks are draining, by virtue of some lengths of old (free!) garden hose connecting all the tanks to a drain.

I haven't put in permanent plumbing to fill the tanks yet- I still do that with a hose connected to an indoor hose tap (on a utility sink spigot)- but that plumbing is coming. I want to be able to fill tanks as easily as I can dump them.

Can't you get a garden hose in the room to fill your tank instead of bucketing?

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I have tried this. but the hose connections are real leaky and water gets everywhere and it takes too long to fill,

Then theres the way of getting the mix out when its used.

I have a strong pump but it hasnt got enough lift to go up the stairs over 2 meteres from bottom to top. I havent got the money to buy another pump.

ngt, let me check my box of spares. I have a 240V pump which might do the job. I'll check it to see if it will clear 2m of head. It's a centrifugal, it may not.

My point is this and has been all the way through this thread,

Yes doing it your way may provide better more consistant results and overall be better for the plant, but in some peoples circumstances its just not viable.

To state yours as being the only right way of doing things is bad judgement and there are people out there in a worse situation than mine.

All i'm saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat.
We both know that hps is the way to fly in regards to flowering but to advise that as the only method is dogmatic and wrong, it wont be right for everyone.

I'm not saying my way is the only way- I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of using nutes in a way the maker doesn't intend.

HPS is a much more clear-cut example. Less wriggle room on that topic.

Al B. Fuct said:

I'm not saying my way is the only way- I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of using nutes in a way the maker doesn't intend.

HPS is a much more clear-cut example. Less wriggle room on that topic.

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and that is fine, if you check all my previous posts i said i understand what your saying but it isnt the only way

ummm, your both wrong... heh... or your both right...

I always deffer to Lucas when it comes to nutes and top offs.
Check out these threads -
TONS of good info here - Hydroponics [Archive] - Cannabis-World

FloraLucas and add backs - Cannabis-World
What is Lucas Formula? [Archive] - Cannabis-World
some quotes below...
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Lucas says -


05-19-2006, 04:15 PM

> is it possible to add nutes without dumping and starting fresh?

yes, you can add nutes to bring TDS up to target of about [email protected] conversion

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As one who started with res changeouts every 2 weeks and have learned even more I can say that Im aware of folks who have gone thru 3 full 12/12 cycles with only adding back to the res. After 3 cycles when changed there seemed to be more residue at the bottom of the res but yields stayed very consistent for each location.... hr

FreePhx said:

ummm, your both wrong... heh... or your both right...

I always deffer to Lucas when it comes to nutes and top offs.
Check out these threads -
TONS of good info here - Hydroponics [Archive] - Cannabis-World

FloraLucas and add backs - Cannabis-World
What is Lucas Formula? [Archive] - Cannabis-World
some quotes below...
-----------------------
Lucas says -


05-19-2006, 04:15 PM

> is it possible to add nutes without dumping and starting fresh?

yes, you can add nutes to bring TDS up to target of about [email protected] conversion

----------
As one who started with res changeouts every 2 weeks and have learned even more I can say that Im aware of folks who have gone thru 3 full 12/12 cycles with only adding back to the res. After 3 cycles when changed there seemed to be more residue at the bottom of the res but yields stayed very consistent for each location.... hr

Click to expand...

big up to the freephx massive, oh and i hate your avatar

my rez is 8 gal. my ppm stays around 1000 in 2 days my plants suck up about 5 gallons. and my ppm goes down to about 800. then I have to fill my rez bak up. then ppm is at like 500-600 . my point being if i didnt top of with nutes my ppm would be very low after about 6 days with who knows how many nutes in the water.

Hmm, So I made my mix a little weak.
In the last four days it has droped from
EC.1.1 to EC0.8 use I have added 4Liters of plain water which has brought it down to EC0.7

I was thinking of doing a early Rez change
But maybe I should top it off with Some Canna PK13/14 and a little N
Or maybe I should top it off with some of my Canna aqura(Bass Nute)

Hmmm. Maybe I will do a little experament with one rez and see how it takes it.

I only want to raise it a little I plan to do a Rez change on monday any way.
Maybe my plants look healthy and I should just leave them be?

Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm.

Al, i understand your point here. But wouldnt it make more sense to keep the ppm's at the optimum level between dumps? This way the plants are getting what they need when they need them, Rather than letting the nutes run dry and leave your plants thriving for more nutes?

I have read through this whole post...and all I can say is this....I change my res every week.......in an everage grow I do, I veg for 4 weeks and flower for 10. 14 weeks......14 changes. I use AN 3-part nutes (high dollar) and all but 3 of their recommended additives.......and I spend 385 dollars a grow on nutes. Changing every week. That is $27.50 per res change and I use the most expensive nutes & additives, 15 seperate things. I like the ease of changing weekly, and since my ppm's only fluctuate about 20 points in that week, I am confident my plants are getting exactly what they need with the equipment I have. I add the nutes they need weekly based on their phase of life......and it has worked. 5 1/2 ounces of 3 plants this time. If I bought that on the streets in my area it coulb be 1500 bucks. I spent 385. I don't fel like my poor ass is hurting this way, seems like I save 500%.
I have to agree with Al.....so that is my penny x 2.

I also have to say, I read what Al says, and it is backed by knowledge, experience, and explanation. GreenGro and nogreenthumb (who both are noobs compared to Al) only offer :no it isn't"...I think Al deserves even more rep for taking the time to try to set these fellas straight.
If I have I have 100% of N/P/K....and my plants drink 10% n......20% p...and 15% k.......and I top with ph'd water to keep the volume the same....in 7 days I have 90/80/85?
If I change with fresh I have 100 of all three....right??
If on day 7 I add in 30% more solution by volume to top my res with nutes at 100% I will get variable rates of 120/110/105.......this is math. By adding the full strength nutes without knowing what is gone will end up with out of proporetion ratios. PERIOD. If you change weekly...the depletion of nutes in 7 days will never allow the proprtions to drop or rise to dangerous levels.
I believe that the pros of this site (Al, VV, Earl) will all agree that this is SCIENCE..and in SCIENCE we try to keep our variables EXACT. We do not leave things to random chance. Since we can't afford a spetro, we rely on the advice of the nute makers, who have these machines, and they say to do what Al is saying to do.
Bottrom line.....hydroponics is science, and your scientist will do it exact, and I promise they will have consistently better yields...and a much more improved knowledge of plant physiology and understanding of the SCIENCE of it.
You can not conduct a scientific experiment with random variables when attempting to achieve exact results.
Long wind3ed yes...but you guys are attacking Al with like NO argument other than...you're wrong.
Fucking A...I am a scientific grower...and I will keep "throwing my money away" to grow my top shelf weed that costs me 85 an OZ....and that I can sell for 125 a 1/4 oz if I was one who sold their grows.
Love to you all...but damn.....don't argue what you are not informed enough to defend. Debate rule #1.