F
FallenHero
Guest
so much for my sons college fund..
Topping up the nutrient mixture
- Thread starter GreenGro
- Start date
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Ok, let's say your freshly mixed solution has 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z." At the end of 2 weeks, we'll arbitrarily propose that it has 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z."
So, what happens when you add some freshly mixed 10% "x", 20% "y" and 10% "z" to your depleted 6% "x", 9% "y" and 4% "z" solution?
See what I mean now?
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Well, that's the point, isn't it?
It's much cheaper, both in outright cost and in the results obtained from proper use, to just use the nutes the way they were designed to be used, innit?
And incidentally, I would happily lend my shiny new mass spectrometer out to anyone who would use it to do some really interesting research like tracking exactly how much of every nutrient, mineral and micronutrient that a plant uses for every second it is in the grow op- or tracing what nutrient and growth aid chemicals actually wind up in the buds, piece o' cake with a mass spectrometer.
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
your left with some confused stoners by using percentages and then having to figure out which is which
add percentages to depleted percentages, if you had done it in a volume measurement it would have been easier to see
i could work out your way i just cant really be bothered ive wasted enough time on you already
keep up the good dumping canna loves you lots
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
The point of not discussing this in terms of actual nutrients was to get you to think about how proportional concentrations of the various elements will change if you mix together solutions with different combinations of proportions of the components.
The x, y & z example is about as simple as I can make it.
You can pretend to not understand for the purpose of storming off without actually defending your point, if you like... but if you really don't understand what happens when mixing solutions with differing proportions of dissolved elements- you probably shouldn't be mucking around with it.
GreenGro
Well-Known Member
Well not really because they are all out of original proportion at 6%, 9% & 4% but if you added more nutes you would increase the levels of each - they'd be out of proportion but they are in any case so I don't see the difference with that sorry
**EDIT**
Though I can see now Al that you said these nutes were to the lower level after 2 weeks but I was more talking about topping with nutes between tank changes, surelly it would be better than water if some nutes were running low
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
Ok then I'll be a big man,
I'm wrong Al is right throw your nutrients away every 2 weeks so you can get perfect ratios,
but as green gro said even 2 weeks after a tank change the nutes have already changed. even after a day, so what the fuck is this thread about now
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Aha! You've actually got it, even though you don't think you do! Good going.Well not really because they are all out of original proportion at 6%, 9% & 4% but if you added more nutes you would increase the levels of each - they'd be out of proportion but they are in any case so I don't see the difference with that sorry
A fresh tank has the components in the maker's intended proportions. The components are depleted over a 2 week life of the tank of sauce. You put everything right by dumping and mixing up a new tank. Simple.
If you add stuff to the depleted tank, you may end up with more than the intended proportional concentration of some things and less of others. The point is, you don't KNOW what you're winding up with- unless you mix up per the maker's instructions. Not many will give you an instruction on how to 'freshen' a depleted tank of sauce.
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
but every makers ratios are different whats the score there?Aha! You've actually got it, even though you don't think you do! Good going.
A fresh tank has the components in the maker's intended proportions. The components are depleted over a 2 week life of the tank of sauce. You put everything right by dumping and mixing up a new tank. Simple.
If you add stuff to the depleted tank, you may end up with more than the intended proportional concentration of some things and less of others. The point is, you don't KNOW what you're winding up with- unless you mix up per the maker's instructions. Not many will give you an instruction on how to 'freshen' a depleted tank of sauce.
what does it really matter if the ratios are slightly out to give that much extra effort and cost
still not convinced
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Cheaper than a mass spectrometer, innit?
Quite correct- but this is one of the factors that the chemical engineers at the nutrient makers consider. This is why they specify a particular lifespan for a tank of sauce.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
While the mixing procedures and number of parts of the solutions as retailed for various brands of nutes are different, the resulting NPK and micronute ratios when you mix up a tank are going to fall within a certain range that the cannabis plant likes. They won't be too different at the end of the day.
If you're spending $60 per dump, I really have to suggest that you to shop around a bit for your nutes. I think you might be able to get a better deal.
I still have to encourage you that you should use the sauces as the maker intends. Trying to get more life out of a tank is a false economy. Take from that what you will, but I will be using that company's expertise to my best advantage.
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
the nutes say to change every 4 weeks anyway.
a 2 litre bottle of my nutrients is 20 bucks
read my post earlier as to how i got to that cost
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
While the mixing procedures and number of parts of the solutions as retailed for various brands of nutes are different, the resulting NPK and micronute ratios when you mix up a tank are going to fall within a certain range that the cannabis plant likes. They won't be too different at the end of the day.
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so it could be as different as leaving your tank an extra week or 2 and topping up with the correct ratio water
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so it could be as different as leaving your tank an extra week or 2 and topping up with the correct ratio water
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
If you only add water, the nutrients remain close to the proportions that the maker intends- for the specified tank life. If you're adding more nute mix, there's a good chance that you're going to have much more of one nutrient in proportion to others.
Again, if all you can measure is the total electrical conductivity of the solution, not the quantity of the individual dissolved elements, you are not getting enough information to know what to add. When you add more nute mix, you're adding ALL components, not just the depleted ones.
It's not that expensive to just use the stuff as the makers intend, rather than trying to re-invent the wheel without proper wheelmaking tools.
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
this just doesnt make sense at all
if you just add water you keep it at the makers recommend ratios
but if its drinking them at different rates, how would that make it closer
you dont make any sense what so ever
adding more of the correct ratio will bring it closer to the makers original recipe
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Do they tell you to add more nute mix in between monthly tank dumps?
Yeah, I saw that. A little exxy on the per litre basis. Can you cut costs by buying bigger containers? Anyone else local to you have a better deal?
There's some other things you're using which you might be able to do without. I have cut it all down to only nutes, H2O2, pH Down (phosphoric acid type for flowering, nitric acid type for vegging my mums) and a phosphorus supplement which only gets used in wk3 of flowering.
Canna would love to sell me their VERY expensive 'Rhizotonic' root stimulant (about $50-60/litre or more), but if I don't induce root diseases by overwatering and keep pathogens in check with H2O2, I just don't need it.
Hydro shops sell tons of 'magic sauces' which often do nothing or don't do enough to justify their cost. I started off years ago by trying several things as suggested by salespeople or other well-meaning folks and just stopped using them to see if there was any difference. More often than not, there wasn't enough difference to justify the cost.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
It does, read it again.
Ooooookay- once more- with feeling!
The maker expects that the component nutrients will be consumed over the specified lifetime of a tank. The solutions are designed so that the nute proportions will remain IN AN ACCEPTABLE RANGE for that lifetime. It's a bell-curve.
Nope. Adding more freshly mixed sauce will push some proportions too high while making others closer to the middle of the bell curve.
Again, without a mass spectrometer, you won't know what to add- and if you're adding more nutrient mix, which contains everything, not just the stuff that's been depleted, you're throwing the proportions out of the range the maker intends.
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
i could buy 20 litre containers but i dont have the funds to do so, its quite often a stretch to get to a 2litre when i need it.
i dont use the whole range i dont think everythings needed,
i use grow bloom and boost plus super drive/thrive
plus i use liquid silicon occasionally as a ph up
on your previous info though, i take it to a simpler level
you have 10 litres of water in that water there are the 3 main nutes
10ml n
10ml p
10ml k
so you use 5 litres of water and top it back up to 2.0 ec
but the plants have taken nutes and your left with
7ml n
3ml p
4ml k
so the ratios are way out there, but youve added water and got it back to an ec of 2.0 in relation to the water,
you still have 5 litres of water to top up but instead you fill this with ec 2.0 with 5,5,5 because its half of the original value
so then you have 11,8,9
these ratios really arent that far out and less so than not topping up with nutes.
Al B. Fuct
once had a dog named
Fair enough; if you can save up and buy the bigger ones sometime later on, it probably would save you a little.
If you add freshly mixed stuff with the right proportions to a depleted tank, you're still going to wind up with unknown and probably excessive concentrations of some nutes. You still can't measure individual nutes in the solution with an EC meter. All you can measure is the TOTAL solution conductivity.
If you don't have bottles of the individual component nutrients and a mass spectrometer handy, you're never going to get the proportions of a 'freshened' tank identical to that of a freshly mixed tank.
On saving money, could you reduce your tank sizes to use less mix per dump?
nongreenthumb
Well-Known Member
that would just bring everything your talking about closer,
you didnt answer my previous message though about ratios
I'm happy with my way and i dont think i would be any better off doing it your way, not noticeably anyway