The Ruiners' Hypothetical Questions to 19 Supporters

Brokenneck

Brokenneck

Well-Known Member
""doctors rec's and, by what everyone is saying, cultivate however much they want, without restrictions in regards to growing space?""
What are your counties Medical Regulations? I am restricted to 6 Buddies 18 Veggies. Half LB Dried.




""Therefore, in order to be part of the action in commerce, ordinary people will simply need to get a doctors rec to grow, and distribute as much as they possibly can to dispensaries and other patients, and quite possibly to the "black market" ? What would be the point of passing all new legislation that can be so easily cast aside?""
Not everyone can grow, let alone grow well. SEE NEXT...



""What good does 19 do the state, if all it takes to avoid what will more than likely be thousands of dollars in taxes annually is a $35 doctors rec? ""
If some can not grow well they... Will buy.
Growers have problems (nah never) lost crop... Will Buy
Crop not ready ...Will Buy


""Wouldn't that just be, as supporters of the bill have put it "more of the same"? Also, how could the commercial interests backing 19 benefit from making it legal for the entire 21 and over population of the state to possess cannabis if they cant possibly compete with a market that has way more advantages in regards to abundant supply and more relaxed regulations?""
Abundant Supply of Crap, if everyone can grow.
If passes I will still be looking for quality, if the big commercial growers can not produce this then if the Black Market keeps thriving Any Business manager will say it is time to boost quality so we can sell more quantity.





"" On the flip side of this coin, what will be the motivation for the "casual smoker" to patronize the commercial establishments, with their elevated overhead and strict regulatory scrutiny which will more than likely spell higher prices, versus just getting the doctors rec and going medical?""
I would love to be able to see a ton of establishments where I could freely and openly smoke and relax, hang out with friends, debate issues as these. Normally for me to smoke without fear, I have to check my passport, book airfare, fly 14-18 hrs, take a train, and walk with my bags to a coffeeshop. Costs me about $2k USD.
I would much rather walk a block or two and hit up my favorite spot.
I would buy, I would PAY, I would get hungry, I would hope there was food to spend on. And coffee too. so TAX ME.

I tried to make it easy to read screw me if I made a typo.
If I missed any points let me know. Not here to argue, maybe come to an understanding :)
 
Brokenneck

Brokenneck

Well-Known Member
So its almost two oclock guys wanna hit up "That one shop" with me?
You know the one that grows, competes on a worldwide level, sells seed, nutrients, books, music, and has decent food, and good coffee.
How many would visit starbux less? Uh Oh for starbucks.
Stop off on way home for a cakie for the sweeti? (hahaha cakie)
 
The Ruiner

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
mccumcumber said:
I really just don't understand what you're getting at, but I'll try to answer every question that you posted.



Yes they will, doctor's recs will still be going out; however, not nearly as many people will be getting them, because most people who have gotten a rec in the past (myself included) did not have a very good reason to get one. Other than the fact that I wanted to smoke weed without getting arrested. There are restrictions to growing space, there always has been. In most cases (cities that I have lived in), it's 10 immature plants and 10 mature plants.



This already happens, most growers with cards that I know of get the card so they can distribute their buds and make money, not because of some ailment. The limit will still be 99 plants, unless you get the commercial license that will be heavily monitored by the state, eliminating any chance of black market. People disobeying the law now, will disobey it in the future too. The difference, everyone can grow now so the dependency on others for weed is minimal. Why would you buy from a cartel when you can pump out two pounds or more to yourself every 3-4 months. This is actually trying to stop growers from getting their cards just to distribute. 215 has been heavily abused, and can be easily seen in many areas of California.



19's major purpose is to differentiate between medical and recreational users. It will also make the state shit tons of money to get rid of this terrible deficit that we have. Taxes are going to go up in someway or another. Why not have the price of weed go down, and the taxes on it go up. Once weed becomes legal and readily accessible, then it will be bought very regularly.The price will stay relatively the same, and we won't have to get fucked in the ass by some other taxes that we will need to pay in the future. Also, most dispensaries in my area (San Francisco) are starting to tax as well.



I don't exactly know what you're asking. If you're referring to dispensaries vs commercial sale of marijuana, dispensaries are way less relaxed in regards to regulations. And, in a few years (if 19 passes) will have a much much smaller supply. Fact of the matter is, dispensaries will probably still have extremely good bud, but they will most likely only be used by medical patients, which is the way it should be.



The state is not going to make inconvenient for itself to make money. I agree with you that government does a great job of fucking shit up, but California has realized that it really does need weed to become legal in order to get out of the shits. Government's main motivating factor is money, and if people start getting fucked by publicly buying weed then they will get their cards and we will have the same situation that is already happening with dispensaries now. The government knows this, so it is in their best interest to satisfy the customer. By the time 19 can get out of hand, more props will be passed that make marijuana laws even more relaxed for recreational use. (I think that there is one proposed on the 2012 ballot). Unless you think that our state's deficit will go away in a year because of marijuana, I don't think you need to worry about the government fucking people over. It's not until they no longer need the stoners that they will try to take advantage of them, and by that time, more props will pass giving us the advantage. You can climb any mountain, you just need to take small steps, 215 was the first step, and 19 is the second.


The major investors will probably find ways to make more money then they put in. They see this as an opportunity to gain, so they are willing to support it. I have already showed you that 215 will stay intact, no where in the prop does it say that it won't. The investors are simply trying to make money where they see that they can. Just look at the 60,000 sqft building in Oakland for fuck's sake. If 19 passes they will be beyond rich. I don't see why anyone who had the means to invest in legalizing a substance that is used by almost everyone in California would not.

Hopefully this answered something. 19 is in my best interest because I no longer carry large quantities of weed in public, and I grow for my own personal stash. To do this without paying $50 a year would be very nice for me. If you're in the same boat then 19 is great for you too.
Click to expand...
Well, actually there aren't any limits...People Vs. Kelly decided that... it was found to be unconstiutional to limit the amount of medicine one can possess...

How come you associate dispensaries with cartels? They haven't even been mentioned. And if there are no limits to personal medical cultivation nothing will stop people from just going medical and cultivating as much as they want anyway, and theres nothing the law can do...what happens to the herb after that...well...And I dont see how this will stop people from getting their cards...it doesnt add up to say that people that want to grow will all just want to be limited to what they can grow, and not go get a rec. I mean, why pay for the fees and regulations if you simply dont have to? You can still cultivate as much as you wish...

Thus, if there is such a huge open door to cultivate without oversight, taxes, and regulation, that means the state will make nothing. because regardless of what they are doing in the bay it is still unconsitutional to tax medicine... thus no revenue, no benefit. There are no incentives for growers to go commercial if 215 is still in place - especially remembering People vs Kelly.

Here, I dont see how you can forsee a shrinking medical market, especially if the premise that 19 leaves 215 intact is actually the case in reality. There's no incentive. Think about it, the same product is being handled here, one system imposes what will probably some damn high dollar amounts in the form of taxes and regulatory fees while the other is free to cultivate, distribute, and "donate" without taxing and regulating to the extent 19 looks to do with commerical...

I agree that the state wouldnt make it inconvenient - that's why they have to kill 215 in order for this to work. 215 is totally inconvenient to commercial interest, and thus the state. Think about it, no current medical growers opposed to 19 are WANTING to go commercial, the supply of the state doesnt change - mega huge commercial facilities dont just spring up overnight, and anyone that is making the change (in name) to commercial cannabiz isnt producing any more than they were previously...meaning there is no immediate increase in supply, thus no advantage in competition whatsoever for commercial cannabis vs medical... Couple the taxes with a nominal supply...thats not competitive, and cant last.

The only way the investors are going to make money is if they have no competition. With 215 intact, and 19 just starting, the majority of the CA tokers are going to want to pay the least possible for their dank and they probably wont get that with a start-up commercial biz - but they could get it from a cultivator with supply, low overhead, and no requirement to pay taxes.

I am still left with the position that....

It makes no sense for 19 to leave 215 intact.
 
The Ruiner

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Brokenneck said:
""doctors rec's and, by what everyone is saying, cultivate however much they want, without restrictions in regards to growing space?""
What are your counties Medical Regulations? I am restricted to 6 Buddies 18 Veggies. Half LB Dried.




""Therefore, in order to be part of the action in commerce, ordinary people will simply need to get a doctors rec to grow, and distribute as much as they possibly can to dispensaries and other patients, and quite possibly to the "black market" ? What would be the point of passing all new legislation that can be so easily cast aside?""
Not everyone can grow, let alone grow well. SEE NEXT...



""What good does 19 do the state, if all it takes to avoid what will more than likely be thousands of dollars in taxes annually is a $35 doctors rec? ""
If some can not grow well they... Will buy.
Growers have problems (nah never) lost crop... Will Buy
Crop not ready ...Will Buy


""Wouldn't that just be, as supporters of the bill have put it "more of the same"? Also, how could the commercial interests backing 19 benefit from making it legal for the entire 21 and over population of the state to possess cannabis if they cant possibly compete with a market that has way more advantages in regards to abundant supply and more relaxed regulations?""
Abundant Supply of Crap, if everyone can grow.
If passes I will still be looking for quality, if the big commercial growers can not produce this then if the Black Market keeps thriving Any Business manager will say it is time to boost quality so we can sell more quantity.





"" On the flip side of this coin, what will be the motivation for the "casual smoker" to patronize the commercial establishments, with their elevated overhead and strict regulatory scrutiny which will more than likely spell higher prices, versus just getting the doctors rec and going medical?""
I would love to be able to see a ton of establishments where I could freely and openly smoke and relax, hang out with friends, debate issues as these. Normally for me to smoke without fear, I have to check my passport, book airfare, fly 14-18 hrs, take a train, and walk with my bags to a coffeeshop. Costs me about $2k USD.
I would much rather walk a block or two and hit up my favorite spot.
I would buy, I would PAY, I would get hungry, I would hope there was food to spend on. And coffee too. so TAX ME.

I tried to make it easy to read screw me if I made a typo.
If I missed any points let me know. Not here to argue, maybe come to an understanding :)
Click to expand...
People vs. kelly. no limits.

That doesnt hold water...the quality isnt the issue...its the ability to do so.

Why wont they just buy medical? Are you supposing that just because they dont have any that grower will jump ship and go commercial for their personal smoke? I really dont think so. And the average toker will just go after the cheapest, and best they can get....if thats medical because of the lower regulatory fees then medical wins, and commercial cant compete. Especially when you factor in that the black market isnt just going to disappear overnight and commercial ops will take time to get started.

Again, quality isnt the issue, and since you cant assert that commercial is going to be one better, and two cheaper these arguments dont add up. Especially given that the quality of MEDICAL CANNABIS is what made CA what it is in terms of its reputation for good weed. So to say "an abundant supply of crap" is quite baseless and disrespectful to a movement that has only IMPROVED for 15 years.

If you think that you will be able to toke freely in public you are mistaken...19 actually imposes harsh restrictions on such things.
 
mccumcumber

mccumcumber

Well-Known Member
I don't associate dispensaries with cartels, if I did, it was a typo.
I think that you're thinking extremely far into a hypothetical situation that could happen. (If A then B may happen which makes C happen which in turn makes D happen, so A makes D happen).
What made California known for its weed is the emerald triangle in Northern California... not dispensaries. I've met people from Spain who have heard of Humboldt and asked me how to get there from SF (foreigners seem to think everything in Cali is right next to each other).
If you could give me some legislation or any evidence of any kind supporting your claims then maybe I'd consider them, but you're just going off of hypothetical situations that you have created based upon your intuition. I mean I'll admit that it's interesting, but I'm not going to buy it unless there is some evidence backing it up. It might not make sense to you that 19 doesn't override 215, but the prop explicitly states that it doesn't. Maybe all hell will break loose or it might work, who knows.
 
The Ruiner

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
I'll give ya humboldt...but not really...just because so much of what came out of there was outdoor...not the uber-high quality stuff that is considered medical.

And yes, the name of the thread is "The Ruiners' Hypothetical Questions" because I want to discuss just HOW this could actually play out...and I think I have done a fair job supporting a stance that it simply cant, and wont work. In this discussion there is no need for "evidence" other than a good grasp of the current system and the one being considered - and everything I have said is from both, so my evidence is really only the "what is" of "what we know" applied to the actual hypothetical situation suggested which is one that is the desired outcome of the pro-19 camp... Personally, I wasn't expecting to find any great answers, because....get ready for it...its coming....

It makes no sense for 19 to leave 215 intact.
 
Brokenneck

Brokenneck

Well-Known Member
:)
Still not arguing with you or Ever meaning to offend anyone.
Thus the reason why I wont go and list of ton of medical shops in my area selling TONS OF CRAP.
Touching on crap for a second. Then I will clean up.
Grower 240 an OZ. Clinic 400+ for smoke you can be proud of.
I know of no one who grows the types of "Budget" Meds like I see in my local dispensaries. $35-50 Eights is a budget price right? The Good Dispensary stuff is 55-65!!!
Dispensaries are flooded (In my area) with this brown "Medical Grade", These guys are slinging crap, selling at 35 and 1/8! 35X8=$$280 (price for good)
I see that as a nightmare! The product (not to offend the grower) is worth 120 an Ounce at best.
Sorry for ranting so long about shit. (Washing hands before returning)

About the toking Freely.
I was making reference to Establishments that are designated for smoking.
Like in Amsterdam,
where you can grow a small number of plants
where there is huge tourism income
...shops sell, compete, and thrive even. Are they afraid of whats going on here? Would there be a backlash??

So again I think quality is a huge issue.
Dispensaries making too much profit.

This movement I have been supporting for years (damn I am old) Yes has improved.
It's so much better now, to no longer be told my card is a piece of junk, have my meds taken, and a mark on my record claiming I am a criminal.
Baseless absolutely not disrespectful to any clinic that "Hires young girls to push meds", Makes insane profits, and the like.
So yes I think maybe I am disrespectful to those types of clinics because after all they are only fronts for selling weed, making profit and bettering themselves.

but still no disrespect Ruiner, unless you are one of the crappy dispensaries, and I am sure you are not.
Heard of this..... Man you gotta try this guys bud... its $X per XX.
You buy from the guy lets say a while.
Then you call guy, He says "Hey Man, I'm going legit, I'm putting my next grow to the RIUcollective. Getting cheaper rates and they sell to you for a little more x per XX"

So If the quality is there.... Will these growers be interested in growing for a big guy?

Let's say I am not a patient but I still know the guy who may sell to a dispensary, would I gladly pay his taxes for him?
Sure I would. How much tax per OZ? what ten% ok $25 heres twenty five bucks man. thanks! I like about 2oz a mo. $50 dollars tax, hell you could double it.

I have Never Said 19 was perfect!
But is it set in stone?
Could it actually be a building block for a situation we could all be happy with?
If statewide it makes Money for the the State and/or US government would they be interested in considering a nationwide legalization initiative?

From what I hear this is the worlds #1 cash crop. with or without California's medical contribution.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
The Ruiner said:
Since there is so much debate over the 5x5 and cultivation in general, and the (possible) overlap between that part of the bill and the CUA/MMP, if 19 passes, will people still be able to get doctors rec's and, by what everyone is saying, cultivate however much they want, without restrictions in regards to growing space?
Click to expand...
fail right from the get go.

there is no possible overlap. there is 5x5 for recreational, and different limits for medical (and certainly not 'howver much they want'...normally there is a limit like 10 veg and 10 bud, or upto 99 veg and 99 bud).

the only real question you ask is 'will people still b able to get doctor recs?'...which we have shown you over and over again, the answer is YES.

The Ruiner said:
Therefore, in order to be part of the action in commerce, ordinary people will simply need to get a doctors rec to grow, and distribute as much as they possibly can to dispensaries and other patients, and quite possibly to the "black market" ?
Click to expand...
i don't live there, not sure how this works now, but pretty sure it is already happening. under prop 19, this may still occur. but if you want to get in on the commercial cultivation rather than medical, you need to follow the dictates of sectioons 11300 - 11302.

The Ruiner said:
What would be the point of passing all new legislation that can be so easily cast aside?
Click to expand...
see, this is exactly why i didn't waste my time previously responding to your hypothetical malarky - LOADED QUESTIONS and FALSE PRESUPPOSITIONS. the new legislation is for recreational and commercial cannabis, not medical cannabis.

The Ruiner said:
What good does 19 do the state, if all it takes to avoid what will more than likely be thousands of dollars in taxes annually is a $35 doctors rec?
Click to expand...
another loaded question/false presupposition. you are assuming here that this was written solely to benefit the state of california. i would argue that is largely an afterthought, just a clever way to get more people to sign the petition and vote for it.

The Ruiner said:
Also, how could the commercial interests backing 19 benefit from making it legal for the entire 21 and over population of the state to possess cannabis if they cant possibly compete with a market that has way more advantages in regards to abundant supply and more relaxed regulations?
Click to expand...
boy, it seems you can't even ask a question that is not loaded. here you assume that the commercial market will be so bogged down with regulations and taxes that it won't be able to compete with th medical market. that, m friend, is yet another false presupposition. are you forgetting that it costs money and plenty of time to keep a medical card current and up to date? or are you just ignoring? and have you stopped beating your wife?

The Ruiner said:
On the flip side of this coin, what will be the motivation for the "casual smoker" to patronize the commercial establishments, with their elevated overhead and strict regulatory scrutiny which will more than likely spell higher prices, versus just getting the doctors rec and going medical?
Click to expand...
yet another loaded question! who says commercial will have such elevated overhead that will spell higher prices? why should i even bother responding? have you rubbed the sand out of your vagina yet? (<---see, i can ask loaded questions, too!)

The Ruiner said:
It just doesn't make sense for 19 to leave 215 intact if EVERYTHING that is being SAID about 215 being left intact is true.
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what else do you want me to say? we have already shown you it is true that 215 will be left intact.

now take your loaded questions and false presuppositions and go somewhere else with them. since this thing is about 95% assured of passing based on polling data and trends, it might be wise for you to use your time towards more fruitful pursuits.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
The Ruiner said:
I think I have done a fair job supporting a stance that it simply cant, and wont work.
Click to expand...
i thik the only thing you have done a fair job of is asking a lot of self serving and loaded questions that presuppose things that likely won't be true.

9I8OD00Z.jpg

the picture you see above is a peanut field. peanuts are on the higher end of cost for farm products, but you can buy a 5 lb bag for less than $25.

i imagine a field full of commercial marijuana might look about the same, perhaps a bit taller, but whatever. it might also require a bit more care in removing males, harvesting, manicuring and so on.

now, slap on as much taxes, overhead, and regulation as you can possibly dream of...and you can still beat the price of medical with its more relaxed regulation AND pull a nifty profit.

why should cannabis cost $2000+ per pound instead of $5 or $10 a pound? is it made from magical seeds? does sunshine cost more for cannabis? or water? why does it cost so freaking much now?

like i said, you are full of loaded questions and false presuppositions. that is why i chose not to answer your questions. when someone asks a loaded question with false presuppositions, such as "when did you stop beating your wife?"....the only correct answer is to REJECT the question, not answer it.
 
Brokenneck

Brokenneck

Well-Known Member
Why you always gotta bring up my sandy snatch and my beating habits.
Thought we had been there done that.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Brokenneck said:
Why you always gotta bring up my sandy snatch and my beating habits.
Thought we had been there done that.
Click to expand...
in case you weren't being sarcastic, i was simply throwing loaded qestions right back at him. i do not think he has sand in his vagina or beats his wife.
 
Serapis

Serapis

Well-Known Member
beardo said:
Im with you...I think this is an attempt to put more restrictions and penalties on marijuana in California to raise incarceration rates. they will eliminate compitition untill the whole industry in controlled by a couple big companies and they will tax you at unreasonable levels.
Click to expand...
Your argument is baseless. 19 would allow ANYONE to increase their garden from 0 sq ft to 25 square feet. Why is it everyone that posts against 19 is a 215 card carrying member? Surely all of California can't be seriously ill? I'd love to carry an ounce of weed and not face a year in jail with a $1,000 fine. I'd love to grow in a legal 5' x 5' without facing 10 years in state and a $10,000 fine.

All of the arguments against 19 are misguided. Do you believe that if it doesn't pass that a better bill with full decriminalization and no taxes will follow? The only reason the bill is being considered is for revenue, taxes. Just like cigarettes and liquor.... go ahead and vote no..... many of you will regret it later. Especially if California ever wakes up and begins to enforce the compassionate use laws and begin to weed out the posers....

Vote yes on 19!
 
The Ruiner

The Ruiner

Well-Known Member
Brokenneck said:
:)
Still not arguing with you or Ever meaning to offend anyone.
Thus the reason why I wont go and list of ton of medical shops in my area selling TONS OF CRAP.
Touching on crap for a second. Then I will clean up.
Grower 240 an OZ. Clinic 400+ for smoke you can be proud of.
I know of no one who grows the types of "Budget" Meds like I see in my local dispensaries. $35-50 Eights is a budget price right? The Good Dispensary stuff is 55-65!!!
Dispensaries are flooded (In my area) with this brown "Medical Grade", These guys are slinging crap, selling at 35 and 1/8! 35X8=$$280 (price for good)
I see that as a nightmare! The product (not to offend the grower) is worth 120 an Ounce at best.
Sorry for ranting so long about shit. (Washing hands before returning)

About the toking Freely.
I was making reference to Establishments that are designated for smoking.
Like in Amsterdam,
where you can grow a small number of plants
where there is huge tourism income
...shops sell, compete, and thrive even. Are they afraid of whats going on here? Would there be a backlash??

So again I think quality is a huge issue.
Dispensaries making too much profit.

This movement I have been supporting for years (damn I am old) Yes has improved.
It's so much better now, to no longer be told my card is a piece of junk, have my meds taken, and a mark on my record claiming I am a criminal.
Baseless absolutely not disrespectful to any clinic that "Hires young girls to push meds", Makes insane profits, and the like.
So yes I think maybe I am disrespectful to those types of clinics because after all they are only fronts for selling weed, making profit and bettering themselves.

but still no disrespect Ruiner, unless you are one of the crappy dispensaries, and I am sure you are not.
Heard of this..... Man you gotta try this guys bud... its $X per XX.
You buy from the guy lets say a while.
Then you call guy, He says "Hey Man, I'm going legit, I'm putting my next grow to the RIUcollective. Getting cheaper rates and they sell to you for a little more x per XX"

So If the quality is there.... Will these growers be interested in growing for a big guy?

Let's say I am not a patient but I still know the guy who may sell to a dispensary, would I gladly pay his taxes for him?
Sure I would. How much tax per OZ? what ten% ok $25 heres twenty five bucks man. thanks! I like about 2oz a mo. $50 dollars tax, hell you could double it.

I have Never Said 19 was perfect!
But is it set in stone?
Could it actually be a building block for a situation we could all be happy with?
If statewide it makes Money for the the State and/or US government would they be interested in considering a nationwide legalization initiative?

From what I hear this is the worlds #1 cash crop. with or without California's medical contribution.
Click to expand...
I think I pretty much agree with everything in this post...

Are you saying you think that there will be commercial collectives?
 
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