The Poorhouse: Aunt Winnie, Glenn Beck, And The Politics Of The New Deal

I think we are agreeing on part of this..

If they are *criminally negligent* then they can get sued.

If they are negligent or make a mistake then they go against the board and can get sanctions, fines , suspension or revocation of their licenses.

They get paid so much because they have to go to school for over a decade to become a doctor. But ultimately they are human and we cannot expect perfection from them. And even if they were capable of perfection, sometimes the people they are treating, in fact often times the people that they are treating die... Because as we have agreed, everybody dies.

We need to change some functional perceptions in this country if we want to pay less for healthcare.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Wow you're dense.........
Would you work for an employer that doesn't provide healthcare if you already didn't have any?

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Sure would, already have, at least 3 jobs I have had over the years had no health coverage whatsoever. They were good paying jobs and i was a Strapping young lad fresh out of the Marine Corps in the best shape of my life, I figured the chances of me getting real sick were real low and I made that choice and guess what? Everything worked out just fine.

You are what we call "The Entitlement class". You believe its your basic human right to have someone else make sure that all of your boo boos are taken care of, regardless of what activities you may participate in that cause the health problem in the first place. You think you are ENTITLED to it. You are entitled to what YOU can create, not what someone else created for themselves. You are a Grasshopper.

Im disappointed in myself for entertaining your post enough to respond to it.

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That makes two of us.

NoDrama said:

You are what we call "The Entitlement class".

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who is 'we'? or are you just referring to yourself in the third person, thereby auto-douchebagging yourself?

NoDrama said:

You believe its your basic human right to have someone else make sure that all of your boo boos are taken care of, regardless of what activities you may participate in that cause the health problem in the first place.

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i don't think that is what he is saying at all. that is the caricature you are trying to draw, however falsely and dishonestly. i think what people like me and hudson want is for people like you to get away from the pyscopathy that consumes you and show a little empathy for a change. what is the value of a human life? what is the price of human dignity?

and yes, i am serious when i characterize your mindset (and others like you) as borderline psychopathic. i'll be happy to expound exactly why, as well.

NoDrama said:

You think you are ENTITLED to it.

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isn't every human being entitled to basic human dignity?

CBO says tort reform could save up to 54B <-Link a year in spending. Lets say they are wrong, lets say it is more like 108 billion a year saved.
Total spending on health care in the US in '09: 2.5 trillion. <-Link

Est. Savings % of spending: 4.32%. Thats a great savings, 162 bucks for every citizen in the US, but there is definitely another fortune in that cookie. Like you said, it gets muddy, but still...

If being a follower of another country saves hundreds of billions, possibly trillions (remember, they spend half what we do per capita, they all have coverage, and 16.7% of our population doesn't), fosters its population, and taxes around the same overall level that we do, then call me a follower, but it might just be what we have to do to leave a better world for ourselves and our kids. Universal health care using a public private partnership is the way to go from what I see.

Germany as another example again (as it is the oldest universal health care, multipayer system on earth) spends about 3700 dollars (in 2007 US dollars) per capita on healthcare. They are third in the world in life expectancy, infant mortality is 4.7 per 1000, and they rank 8th in practicing physicians per 1000 people.

US spends about 7300 per capita. <- Link, Yeah its wiki, but sourced from OECD so . ranks 42nd on life expectancy, has 6.8 out of 1000 for infant mortality (among the worst in the industrialized world)
and the US doesn't even rank in the top 25 for the physicians per 1000 people. Oh yeah, did I mention we spend twice as much for such statistics? People are fat in germany, people smoke in germany, blah blah blah...

heath stats sourced from: Here, Here, Here, and Here

CBO says whatever they are told to calculate based on whatever assumptions they are given.

We are talking philosophies here.

The standard of living, income etc is different in other countries than the US. You keep trying to pick the good parts of any country that suits you without actually getting into the numbers. Many of these countries heavily subsidize the payments so you are not accurately showing the full amount that the citizens contribute. That is just part of it but you can make statistics prove anything. So they are boring being used in a debate cause I can show the exact opposite of what you can show. How much higher are the taxes in Germany, etc to pay for this healthcare? Why is gas twice as expensive in Europe? Taxes...

NLXSK1 said:

CBO says whatever they are told to calculate based on whatever assumptions they are given.

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yeah, and he doubled it to satisfy your unfounded skepticism. he could have quadrupled it and still only hit 8%. guess there is no satisfying someone who gets upset by facts.

NLXSK1 said:

We are talking philosophies here.

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translation: let me move this away from your fact and evidence based common sense. let me drag it into the gutter of paranoid delusion that is my compound (ie, parents' basement)

NLXSK1 said:

The standard of living, income etc is different in other countries than the US. You keep trying to pick the good parts of any country that suits you without actually getting into the numbers. Many of these countries heavily subsidize the payments so you are not accurately showing the full amount that the citizens contribute. That is just part of it but you can make statistics prove anything. So they are boring being used in a debate cause I can show the exact opposite of what you can show. How much higher are the taxes in Germany, etc to pay for this healthcare? Why is gas twice as expensive in Europe? Taxes...

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i'll remember this next time you use another country to try to prove any point whatsoever. i will just say "your comparison is invalid" simply because it invokes another country, no matter how good of a match in whatever respective way it may be.

face it, what we are doing here does not work, what they are doing in other places does work, and you are simply being stubborn.

i was a bit stubborn as well when i was 12 years old.

Good thing you didn't get hurt off the job hiking or something. Then I would be here calling you a moron. Would you take that same risk with your children? You know as family coverage is concerned...Come on big boy get serious, we are trying to solve an issue, not win an argument. You ever notice that when you were in the marine corps they gave you health care and attention? Probably because they found it necessary, as it is.

Enough of your nonsense on this thread, for the first time in nearly a week, freakin NLXSK1 and I may have found common ground, and I have to hear your chatter in the back ground.

Take care of boo boo's. yeah, thats what I think.

Actually I think it is dumb to use our system as it is, and I would love to give the 50 million men, women, and children of this country coverage who don't have it. I would love to have the ability to change my job without having a 3 month lapse of coverage that I desperately need for my severely asthmatic daughter who has a ton of health issues, and my wife who has cartilage degeneration,scoliosis, and asthma as well. (and no, I never smoke indoors or around my daughter). It's sad that Cuba can cover all of its citizens, and the good old United States has people like you here to make sure that people are dying from completely preventable reasons.

You got money, you live...you don't, you die. Your world view assumes that everyone has money, and that the poor serve no purpose. The poor have jobs, the poor may actually work harder than you. The poor have families, and not all people are poor because of their decisions, just like not all people are rich because of theirs. They are our fellow man, treat them as such.

Lets not forget that we are seeing the last of the population of people who actually will have health care after they retire. A VAST majority of current US employees in the private sector lose their coverage when they lose their job. We'll see what you say then about medicare's impact on the nation, and maybe you'll see why we have to solve this problem now instead of later.

NoDrama said:

Sure would, already have, at least 3 jobs I have had over the years had no health coverage whatsoever. They were good paying jobs and i was a Strapping young lad fresh out of the Marine Corps in the best shape of my life, I figured the chances of me getting real sick were real low and I made that choice and guess what? Everything worked out just fine.

You are what we call "The Entitlement class". You believe its your basic human right to have someone else make sure that all of your boo boos are taken care of, regardless of what activities you may participate in that cause the health problem in the first place. You think you are ENTITLED to it. You are entitled to what YOU can create, not what someone else created for themselves. You are a Grasshopper.



That makes two of us.

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CBO gave the highest estimate I could find. Then I doubled out to disarm the statement below.

NLXSK1 said:

CBO says whatever they are told to calculate based on whatever assumptions they are given.

We are talking philosophies here.

The standard of living, income etc is different in other countries than the US. You keep trying to pick the good parts of any country that suits you without actually getting into the numbers. Many of these countries heavily subsidize the payments so you are not accurately showing the full amount that the citizens contribute. That is just part of it but you can make statistics prove anything. So they are boring being used in a debate cause I can show the exact opposite of what you can show. How much higher are the taxes in Germany, etc to pay for this healthcare? Why is gas twice as expensive in Europe? Taxes...

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

CBO gave the highest estimate I could find. Then I doubled out to disarm the statement below.

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I thought we had already established that this is an enormously complicated issue with no 'silver bullet'. You gotta start somewhere amigo! 54billion or 5.4 billion, the numbers don't really matter that much. You have to take the first step. That would be one that I think all parties agree would save a small chunk. CBO says 54 billion and they are supposedly nonpartisan. We'll go with that figure. No use trying to be dishonest. Now what? What do we do next? What else can be cut or reduced or reformed or whatever, to save us some $$? If the fucking politicians with all their education and money and shit can't or won't solve the issue, by gosh we fucking stoners/growers will!!!!!!

For lower income and middle class, they are less taxed than we are, worst case scenario equally taxed, seeing as how 95% of their taxation is federal, and here we pay more for local taxes more than federal in a lot of areas, not to mention state, and social security, which is all automatically baked into the German tax system.

The upper class pays a higher percentage than here, its called a progressive tax, we used to have one when we had a budget surplus in the 90's.



On top of which, the rich there encourage (and in this case petition) the government to tax them more, not bitch, cuz they can afford it, and see the benefit of helping the nation as a whole.
http://www.thelocal.de/money/20091022-22755.html

Once more, businesses are taxed in a way that makes sense, and captures all companies, exempts none, and manages not to stifle its robust economy. Value added taxation would fix a lot of useless taxes and codes here.

So yeah, gas is more expensive.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

CBO gave the highest estimate I could find. Then I doubled out to disarm the statement below.

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Not sure why I am being targeted here, I was trying to help NSXLK1's Argument by doubling, also to preempt him saying that the number was BS, which he did. I did that so we could a) confirm that tort reform would help, and b) that even in the wildest estimates available, its far from the whole issue, and if someone wants to address this issue, one most go far beyond just tort reform.

and yes, we can fix it. This nation was founded by a bunch of drunks, stoners, wife beaters, and rapists. We can do anything.

doc111 said:

I thought we had already established that this is an enormously complicated issue with no 'silver bullet'. You gotta start somewhere amigo! 54billion or 5.4 billion, the numbers don't really matter that much. You have to take the first step. That would be one that I think all parties agree would save a small chunk. CBO says 54 billion and they are supposedly nonpartisan. We'll go with that figure. No use trying to be dishonest. Now what? What do we do next? What else can be cut or reduced or reformed or whatever, to save us some $$? If the fucking politicians with all their education and money and shit can't or won't solve the issue, by gosh we fucking stoners/growers will!!!!!!

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UncleBuck said:

and yes, i am serious when i characterize your mindset (and others like you) as borderline psychopathic. i'll be happy to expound exactly why, as well.



isn't every human being entitled to basic human dignity?

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Borderline Psycopath is another made up malady, just like mean world syndrome. Just how much does your wife contribute to your remarks anyway? You think I don't have empathy for an individuals situation? Of course I do, but I don't believe it is governments position to be taxing us or telling us that we have to contribute to the less well off people. Medicine man would consider me poor as a mouse, yet here I am standing up for what is right. Whats mine is mine.

Dignity is the quality one deems himself to be worthy of respect. Respect for ones self does not come from having government provided medical insurance, it comes from self discipline, effort to attain goals, and the ability to pick yourself up off the ground and get back on that horse. You can fail at everything you do and still have dignity, its not something you can barter for, you have to earn it for yourself.

Hudsonvalley82 said:

Not sure why I am being targeted here, I was trying to help NSXLK1's Argument by doubling, also to preempt him saying that the number was BS, which he did. I did that so we could a) confirm that tort reform would help, and b) that even in the wildest estimates available, its far from the whole issue, and if someone wants to address this issue, one most go far beyond just tort reform.

and yes, we can fix it. This nation was founded by a bunch of drunks, stoners, wife beaters, and rapists. We can do anything.

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Oh, come on bro! Don't start crying now! Nobody is "targetting" you. lol! This is the RIU politics forum! We've been extremely kind to you! lmfao!!!!! Don't believe me? Just start digging through some of the past threads! Look for ones that are locked. Those are usually the most, ummmm, entertaining!

Back to the issue at hand (quit trying to deflect), we actually have more common ground than I think we realize. When people drop their party loyalties and start looking for honest, intelligent solutions, and are willing to compromise, I believe great things can be acheived relatively quickly. Normally, the progressives like to argue, as evidenced by UncleBuck, that torte reform is a drop in the ocean, but we can't have that attitude. And let's not kid ourselves, just because 54 billion doesn't seem like much in the scheme of things, fact is that is a LOT of money! A lot of good could be done with that kid of scratch!

Hey John Wayne, we're talking about saving lives, not saving dignity. I would gladly trade some of what you call "dignity" to know that in the future none of my relatives will ever have to worry about being without that ability to go to the doctor to save their health. Especially since it has proven to save tons of money.

NoDrama said:

Dignity is the quality one deems himself to be worthy of respect. Respect for ones self does not come from having government provided medical insurance, it comes from self discipline, effort to attain goals, and the ability to pick yourself up off the ground and get back on that horse. You can fail at everything you do and still have dignity, its not something you can barter for, you have to earn it for yourself.

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Yea man, that is what I said directly. The whole fortune cookie analogy thingy was just that. I wasn't trying to marginalize Tort reform, I was accepting it, and trying to draw the conversation about the healthcare issue beyond that as well...

doc111 said:

Oh, come on bro! Don't start crying now! Nobody is "targetting you. lol! This is the RIU politics forum! We've been extremely kind to you! lmfao!!!!! Don't believe me? Just start digging through some of the past threads! Look for ones that are locked. Those are usually the most, ummmm, entertaining!

Back to the issue at hand (quit trying to deflect), we actually have more common ground than I think we realize. When people drop their party loyalties and start looking for honest, intelligent solutions, and are willing to compromise, I believe great things can be acheived relatively quickly. Normally, the progressives like to argue, as evidenced by UncleBuck, that torte reform is a drop in the ocean, but we can't have that attitude. And let's not kid ourselves, just because 54 billion doesn't seem like much in the scheme of things, fact is that is a LOT of money! A lot of good could be done with that kid of scratch!

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Hudsonvalley82 said:

You got money, you live...you don't, you die. Your world view assumes that everyone has money, and that the poor serve no purpose. The poor have jobs, the poor may actually work harder than you. The poor have families, and not all people are poor because of their decisions, just like not all people are rich because of theirs. They are our fellow man, treat them as such.

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All the rich people will die too, I gaurantee it bro. I will bet any amount of money you would like that someone like Bill Gates, The Rothschilds, The Rockefellers, The Queen of England, will ALL die. No matter how many teams of the greatest surgeons ever assembled, these people will also lie cold and rigid on a slab one day.

doc111 said:

Oh, come on bro! Don't start crying now! Nobody is "targetting you. lol! This is the RIU politics forum! We've been extremely kind to you! lmfao!!!!! Don't believe me? Just start digging through some of the past threads! Look for ones that are locked. Those are usually the most, ummmm, entertaining!

Back to the issue at hand (quit trying to deflect), we actually have more common ground than I think we realize. When people drop their party loyalties and start looking for honest, intelligent solutions, and are willing to compromise, I believe great things can be acheived relatively quickly. Normally, the progressives like to argue, as evidenced by UncleBuck, that torte reform is a drop in the ocean, but we can't have that attitude. And let's not kid ourselves, just because 54 billion doesn't seem like much in the scheme of things, fact is that is a LOT of money! A lot of good could be done with that kid of scratch!

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I agree, Hudson is making progress. Its hard to see past his own families hardships, there is some bias.

54 billion is quit a bit, its almost 13 days of government deficit spending. Government deficit spends 4.12 billion per day. They spend far more than that though really , especially when you consider the amount of interest that is accruing.

Gotta go watch "Dexter" now.

54 billion is Fifty Four Thousand Million dollars...

How many people even pay over a million dollars per year into the government? Are there fifty four thousand of them?

The money the government is spending is just sick...

NoDrama said:

Borderline Psycopath is another made up malady, just like mean world syndrome. Just how much does your wife contribute to your remarks anyway?

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on that particular remark, nothing. when i get back from my game of poker and grab her dsm iv to look up the diagnosis for 'anti social personality disorder', aka psychopathy, i will credit her with an assist.

and just like psychopathy is a 'linguistic shorthand' of sorts for an actual malady called antisocial personality disorder, which is no more than meeting a certain number of diagnosable criteria over a certain timeframe, 'mean world syndrome' is just linguistic shorthand for meeting certain criteria of an actual personality disorder, or malady.

just because you think nothing of it does not make it any less real.

dignity may not be born out of having access to affordable health care, but it is a little tougher to have dignity when you are one illness away from bankruptcy.

UncleBuck said:

dignity may not be born out of having access to affordable health care, but it is a little tougher to have dignity when you are one illness away from bankruptcy.

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So then shouldn't the government then subsidize all those people who lost their dignity due to the big banks malfeasance? I mean all those people who have had their homes foreclosed on because they stopped making payments, shouldn't government make all those payments for them? I Mean after all how can we as a nation sit around in our nice warm homes and NOT think of the poor children who are kicked to the curb every year because poor mommy can't pay for that breast cancer she has. She will get treated, but shes gonna have to give up the home to live. No one ever thinks about the children who are all going to end up as either pimps or hookers or strippers or bachi baza boys. That's what happens to kids who lose their dignity.